[moimeme]

Lest I hijack the feminism thread, I'll start this here. There have been posts about women's 'free will' and choices. These issues have always amused me, as did the political 'rational man' and the economic 'free market'.

Truly, if you look at the meta picture (as I think Sinny did in discussing consumerism), can you really believe that these choices are freely made? We have members who are the product of communications/marketing courses - in which people are taught how to manipulate others' motivations and desires, armed with social psych research straight out of the shops of major businesses.

Given this environment, can anyone honestly believe that people's choices are that 'free'?

It is my contention that one could only be truly free-willed absent all such influences. Since that condition is impossible, no mortal is actually 'free' in terms of will.

Agree? Disagree?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by moimeme
It is my contention that one could only be truly free-willed absent all such influences. Since that condition is impossible, no mortal is actually 'free' in terms of will.

Agree? Disagree?

Disagree, Because I don't measure "free will" as "unadulterated choice"--that wouldn't make sense. Rather it's the choice one makes, despite any other influence.

Edited to add more thoughts:

I think that no response exists without stimuli, but humans are cerebral enough to separate any outside influences from a decision, if they so desire. I would never claim that male attraction FORCES women to go under the knife to make their boobs bigger, That's a decision they FREELY make, and it works both ways. I think that your train of thought is onto something, and I see where you're coming from, but I believe it leads to dangerously not taking responsibility for one's actions--blaming society for personal failure.

[Kriz]

I think one, male or female, makes a free choice to the extent that one is aware of the influences laid upon him/her. From the moment we realise a certain influence is there, we are able to either reject or accept it.

[ukgirl28]

An individual only has Free Will when they make a decision upon the choices available to them at any given opportunity or situation.

[Kriz]

Yes, but moimeme is talking about (if I may be so blunt to EVER pretend to know what she's talking about ) the limitation of these choices. The choices we have are limited by biological and sociological factors. Sociological influences are strong because most of the time people are unaware of them. I believe that, as soon as you can 'unmask' these influences, the boundaries they set to our choices are gone.

[ukgirl28]

The choices we have are limited by biological and sociological factors. Sociological influences are strong because most of the time people are unaware of them. I believe that, as soon as you can 'unmask' these influences, the boundaries they set to our choices are gone

Limited choices are cased by previous choices made by society and those beforehand etc.. everything happens for a reason, and we are only given what is available.

Why go against the grain, when you can go with the flow...?

Why do individuals take for granted what they have and yearn for what they dont have..?

Life is complicated enough - why make it more complicated than it already is?

If a choice is not available for you, then there is a reason why it not there in the first place.

[moimeme]

I believe that, as soon as you can 'unmask' these influences

A fine plan, but first you have to be aware of what they may be and then you need to be aware of how they may have influenced you. Do you believe that most people are that conscious of these factors? For instance, a lot of the new 'churches' sponsored by the religious right use techniques known to create loyalty, and, essentially, 'brainwash' people. How many people understand the psychology of influence and understand how and why they may be susceptible to these methods?

Why do individuals take for granted what they have and yearn for what they dont have..?

This isn't about that sort of choice. It's about the ability to make any sort of choice.

[Kriz]

You've struck upon what I believe to be the line between emotion and ratio. I define emotion as a permanent process of unaware choices, while our rational thinking takes causes and influences into account. In this theory, there is no pure emotion nor does the pure rational thought exist. I'm not saying it is easy, I won't even claim it's possible, let alone desirable to recognise all influences, because it would dismiss emotion.

But in some circumstances, evaluation of influences can be useful. Take for example the movie 'The Truman Show'. Truman has an irrational fear of water and boats caused by his father's drowning, which was put into scene by the producers of the tv show. As soon as he realises this fear was caused by a 'scene', or an influence if you like, he is able to fend it off.

I believe it is a principle often practiced in therapy. Fears and harmful desires are brought back to it's root cause. As soon as the patient sees what caused his 'disorder', it is easier for him to let it go.

[Arabess]

I can truly say that at some point of my life....when everything politically, career wise, marriage related and religious oriented ALL FELL APART....I made the decision to live my life according to a 'different drummer'....so to speak.

There were some foundational belief's which I dragged along with me, there were other belief's which I decided to check out......and a whole bunch of belief's which I deemed as dumber than F*CK!

I THINK I can truly say that a person can get to a point of not just questioning the world around them.....but WHY they perceive it in such a manner.....and make changes without effort.

And then.....rest in who they are....without any excuses or apologies.