I've just re-read your initial post, and had another flash in the pan insight:
You ask,
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Is it that people who don't esteem themselves can't be bothered being people they might like?
I think it is more that people who don't esteem themselves may not be bothered to think much in general. People are more prone to being creatures of habit than creatures of thought. When a thing becomes habitual, it becomes a kind of comfort. Even in the case of self-destructive or outwardly destructive behavior. We are social animals, and to be part of a social structure, often we accept a set of patterned behaviors as our own. This may be a part of why politeness and virtue are on the decline: tis easier to follow the masses than to let go and risk being smashed on the rocks of an 'unknown.' Complacency endangers intellect, and oft intellect dims compassion. In other words, tis a rare and noble individual who finds the ability to be both practically intelligent and emotionally intelligent, and that has nothing at all to do with spiritual intelligence whatsoever!
(I wish I could join in the intellectual and philosophical aspect of the 'debate' in which you and Jenny have found yourselves, but I daresay with what limited knowledge of Hobbes and Locke that I do have, I'd sound even more the fool were I to try!)
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I think it is more that people who don't esteem themselves may not be bothered to think much in general.
You see the cynic in me would opine that most people can't be bothered to think much in general no matter the state of their self-esteem.
BTW, Beth, I'm really enjoying your ponderings - shower-originated or not - too
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oft intellect dims compassion
I think that too many intellectuals begin to believe the archaic 'brain over heart' attitude which was supposedly an 'enlightened' viewpoint when really it denies the truth and reality of what humans are. It is no great thing to operate only from the head but people still cling to the lame belief that 'reason' is superior to 'passion'. In truth, the best humans incorporate both aspects of their humanity rather than shunning one or the other. I think the anti-intellectuals are as bad or worse, in fact.
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I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to my fellow creatures, let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
Last edited by moimeme; 22nd September 2003 at 7:59 PM..
Location: the easter bunny has eggs! breathe in; breathe out. there is still wonder in the world :)
Posts: 2,735
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I think that too many intellectuals begin to believe the archaic 'brain over heart' attitude which was supposedly an 'enlightened' viewpoint when really it denies the truth and reality of what humans are. It is no great thing to operate only from the head but people still cling to the lame belief that 'reason' is superior to 'passion'. In truth, the best humans incorporate both aspects of their humanity rather than shunning one or the other. I think the anti-intellectuals are as bad or worse, in fact.
i respect the truth you are following. i think what is pleasing about reason, to me, is that it is codified so rigourously; one can cite and reference a system in place, and alter it through precedent and careful thought. i don't find it superior, but i do find it a much more useful way to express myself. that said, i do see empathy (*not* pity) as a function of reason - it's sharing the evidence of experience.
i celebrate imaginative, sensual, artistic, and vocational passion, but in more linear forms of communication, particularly written communication, i stand behind reason as the dominant discourse for persuasion and argument - passion can be implied by the fervour and rigour of the writing as a whole. and i stand behind reason because i have been taught to do so, as many people have. i would like to talk to those people, thus i must try to speak their language.
i do not think reason is a higher or greater truth, simply one among many i have been taught and one i am willing to stand up for, in this particular context at this time.
the orgy thread, however, is a totally different kitten, giggles.
Last edited by jenny; 22nd September 2003 at 8:31 PM..
i do find it a much more useful way to express myself
Depends what you want to express. Words are completely inadequate in many situations.
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but in more linear forms of communication, particularly written communication, i stand behind reason as the dominant discourse for persuasion and argument
I'm losing you here. We weren't discussing effective means of persuasion and argument. I was responding to Beth's remark that 'oft intellect dims compassion'. I was saying that people think intellect is superior to emotions like compassion and that IMHO being truly evolved means to integrate the two. That way, one can use reason to argue for the utility of compassion.
BTW, Beth, I'm really enjoying your ponderings - shower-originated or not - too
aww, shucks! Thanks. -shower-originated, no; after hours of deliberation, perhaps! Spur of the moment!? Most likely!-
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You see the cynic in me would opine that most people can't be bothered to think much in general no matter the state of their self-esteem.
And the eternal optimist in me would opine that cynicism serves but the purpose of the bitter. Yet I have an uncanny knack for being cynical as well as optimistic, which is perhaps contrary, but certainly serves me well thus far in life. Perhaps I'm more one than the other on any given day, and I'm given to say that the optimist wins more often than the cynic, if for no other reason than the fact that I truly believe that within every individual is the ability to accomplish anything. However, the cynic immediately emerges to say that although the potential may be there, most people will never achieve their potential. <shrug> I'm easily confused, perhaps. Or perhaps I can easily confuse others! Hmmm....
that cynicism serves but the purpose of the bitter
I wouldn't go as far as 'bitter'. I'd stick firmly with 'disillusioned'. The eternal optimist in me survives, despite having been beaten fairly severely by life circumstance. Disillusionment has served to cushion my disappointment when my optimistic hopes would leave me vulnerable to being crushed. My optimism helps me rebound from crushing events because it successfully persuades me that history does not necessarily repeat itself. I continue to persist in my devout Pollyannaism, however, for all that.
"I get knocked down but I get up again, 'cause they're never gonna keep me down" Chumbawumba: Tubthumping
Location: the easter bunny has eggs! breathe in; breathe out. there is still wonder in the world :)
Posts: 2,735
yes, i understand what you meant better now. and for me constructing a creative and thoughtful argument that attends to its logic is among the most loving acts i commit. so hurray! synthesis!
Once again I stand corrected, humbly, and appreciatively. I think the word "disillusioned" is a perfect representation of the motivation behind my own cynicism! Moi, you're fabulous!
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