OK, this might sound like a strange thing to complain about. On the other hand it might have a lot to do with the age-old question of "why do nice guys finish last?"
I've been dating a very nice guy. Met him last month at a Christmas party. He's handsome, extremely intelligent & accomplished, has loads of integrity & kindness, does work that I find to be fascinating. And he is very keen on me. Wow! At long last! Someone who doesn't bore me but who isn't an arrogant, self-absorbed idiot.
So what's my complaint? He is sooo deferential to me. Whatever we do, it's all about me. Not in an obsequious, doormat kind of way. But it's clear that he really likes me, and is very self-conscious around me, like he doesn't want to make a "mistake." We've recently become physically intimate, and even there it's all about what I want -- which is not what I want! Lovemaking ought to be about two people's pleasure and satisfaction. He went out of his way to make sure that I was satisfied (and he did a very good job) but while he did appear to be enjoying himself, at no point was I not the absolute focus of his attention. When he finally let himself go it was, I think, simply from sheer exhaustion on his part, it was certainly anticlimactic. End result being that I felt like it was very one-sided, which was rather disappointing for me. It's hard to connect to someone on that intimate physical/emotional plane when you feel like you're the only one swimming, they're just patiently standing at the edge of the pool with a towel, ready to ask if you've had a nice swim.
Is any of this making sense? Bottom line is that I think he's a rather shy guy who's probably a bit of an inexperienced geek when it comes to women. And that is fine, fine, fine with me. I've had enough of the selfish a**hole variety. I'm hoping that as he gets more comfortable with me he'll be able to let himself go a bit -- in bed and out.
My question/problem, then, is two-fold: any advice on how to get him to loosen up a bit? I can change things a bit in bed I think just by doing things that force him to focus on his own pleasure a bit. But that's just one facet of the overall problem, and I don't know how to go about saying, "would you please stop pussyfooting around me, and go ahead and say something off-color, or talk for fifteen minutes nonstop about your latest project without once asking me if you're boring me." I can't just say that to him because it is implicitly a criticism that might make him pull even further into his shell.
He & I have been out of town quite a bit since we've met, which has meant that it's taking us a bit longer to get to know each other. I like him a lot, but I'm not in love with him. I think it's going to take some time, but it makes me uneasy to think that in the meantime he's utterly besotted with me. It puts me in the uncomfortable position of feeling like I have to really like him, because he's being so very nice, and he's such a great guy, etc. and I would be ungrateful to not be head-over-heels about him. Having someone be so attentive and deferential puts the spotlight solely on me, it gives me no space or time to gradually decide how I feel about him.
Moreover, it makes me feel terribly selfish. And I'm not a selfish person. When he's guarded with me I feel awkward with him. It's tiring and a bit annoying to feel that every word I say, every nuance of emotion will be taken to heart. It's reaching the point where I'm starting to be irritable.
Nice guys take note! And please advise! What can I do to get him to chill out a little bit? I don't want to stop seeing him, but if this continues, my irritation will grow. This has happened in the past, and I have broken up with some very nice guys because of it. That was years ago, and at the time I didn't know exactly why I wanted to stop seeing them. I just knew I was annoyed and resentful, and they were very hurt when I broke up with them (as I knew they would be), which just annoyed me all the more because I felt forced into being "mean."
I DO want to be with someone who is considerate, who thinks he's lucky to be with me (as I do to be with him), who isn't constantly and solely thinking about himself. I think most women do. I think most of us aren't actually attracted to outright selfishness. But this kind of deference and over-niceness is too much.
I can kinda relate to what you are saying because I am one of those guys. I have been with my girl for a little over a month now and I am very attentive to her. I am constantly caressing and massaging her while we are next to each other. I just can't help it!! Although when it comes to sex, I am not ALL about pleasuring her. I'm definitely gonna get my pleasure!! I think we are just the sensitive-type guys you always hear about. I think if you give it time, you will see his other side. He is probably just trying to be really nice right now so that you like him. It's like he found a wonderful girl and he doesn't want to lose her, and he's just trying to do everything right. I am the same way. I think things will change over time, you will see.....
YOU ASK: "any advice on how to get him to loosen up a bit?"
Funny you should ask. I'm going to answer your post entirely on intuition so it may sound like a psychic reading but I'm 99 percent accurate...so here goes.
I think you've found a real winner. This guy is very sure of himself and not at all consumed with himself or his life. He's done a lot of very exciting things along the road, he's a very happy person, and has absolutely no need or desire to impress you or others with details about his life. He is not at all self absorbed.
He much prefers letting other people talk about themselves because he knows all about himself and really doesn't have a need to promote himself. He is very genuinely interested in knowing all he can about you and it makes him very happy to hear to talk about yourself. I would suggest that you ask him questions and draw things out of him.
He is not nice in a phoney way...he is genuine. Unfortunately for you, you will find he is very nice to EVERYBODY!!! That doesn't make you unspecial...that makes him very sincere and real. Jerks who are very nice to a girl they are dating and *******s to everybody else are not the kind of people you want to be around.
The reason he defers to you is that he is VERY HAPPY AND DELIGHTED JUST BEING WITH YOU!!! He cares not one ounce where he goes to eat, what movie he watches, what means of transportation he uses, or about anything else as long as he is with YOU!!! Wow, what a guy!!!
He defers to you because he is concerned about your happiness...and HE IS NOT TRYING TO WIN YOUR HEART OR IMPRESS YOU!!! You may not believe this but if you take the time you will find out I am 100 percent correct. I feel it in my gut. It makes him very happy if he feels you are happy in what you are doing and the only way he can ensure that is if he does what he knows you want to do. As long as he is with you, he simply doesn't care about anything else. Being with you and doing things with you is the only end he seeks. WOW, what a guy!!!
OK, you've got to save this one...at least for a while. You need to simply sit down and talk to him in the very kind and discrete way you always do things. Let him know how you feel, in a kind way. You can do that...I know you can. He will be very, very happy to hear what you have to say and he won't be the least bit offended. Trust me...I know what I'm talking about.
Then he will tell you things about himself exactly as I have written above....or you can just wait to see that it's true.
But no matter what he's like or no matter what his motives, you are seeing his behavior from your vantage point and through your own filters which have formed over time. No matter what his motives or lack of motives are, this behavior is likely to rub you wrong...until you talk to him and get things real straight.
I think that once you clearly understand that this guy is for real...and he is just a nice guy in general, effortlessly, you will accept him and the way he is a lot better.
You need to take care with this one. He's not perfect...and he knows that too. He is not boastful but I will tell you he really likes you a lot!!! I definitely would talk to this guy and try to fashion some sort of system of interaction so that you are not bored or irritated with his natural style.
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So there, you have it. All of the above is simply intuition....but, again, I am so darn good you can take it to the bank.
You're smart enough to do it....delve into his mind a little bit and see if what I have written is correct.
You got a great guy here. Your mission is to communicate and fashion a way for the two of you to be together so you won't feel the way you do now. If you don't, you'll think about this guy a few years from you and kick yourself in the ass because you didn't make a try of it.
Good luck.
I mean...this guy is almost as great as I am...just a lot more modest!
Originally posted by Tony YOU ASK: "any advice on how to get him to loosen up a bit?"
OK, you've got to save this one...at least for a while. You need to simply sit down and talk to him in the very kind and discrete way you always do things. Let him know how you feel, in a kind way. You can do that...I know you can. He will be very, very happy to hear what you have to say and he won't be the least bit offended. Trust me...I know what I'm talking about.
I think that once you clearly understand that this guy is for real...and he is just a nice guy in general, effortlessly, you will accept him and the way he is a lot better.
You need to take care with this one. He's not perfect...and he knows that too. He is not boastful but I will tell you he really likes you a lot!!! I definitely would talk to this guy and try to fashion some sort of system of interaction so that you are not bored or irritated with his natural style.
......................
You got a great guy here. Your mission is to communicate and fashion a way for the two of you to be together so you won't feel the way you do now. If you don't, you'll think about this guy a few years from you and kick yourself in the ass because you didn't make a try of it.
Good luck.
I mean...this guy is almost as great as I am...just a lot more modest!
You're absolutely right. I don't sense anything phoney about him (if that were the case I'd just stop dating him). He is kind, and very modest. Thanks a lot, you've helped me put it into perspective a bit better, realizing that he's not desperate to please me but so comfortable and confident that it's nothing to him to be so generous.
And you're also dead right about not wanting to let this one get away.
In a lot of ways, I'm dealing with a guy who sounds VERY similar to your guy.....and he and I have been together about a month.
My guy admits that he's not dated much.....he's been divorced for 2 yrs and prior to that he'd been together with his ex wife for 10 yrs all together (including 3 yrs of marriage). He was 22 when they first got together, he's 34 now. So yes, his dating experience is very limited.
His ex wife ended up changing a lot...turned into a party girl, always at the bar when he was working late, or she'd be out with "the girls at the bar" while he was at home. She was just not the homebody/home-oriented person he was...and that's the kind of person he's been looking for..which is me to a "T."
He and I have so many similarities and things in common....it's uncanny. He's a good man with a good heart and he'd give the shirt off his back to anyone, including me.
But like your guy, from the very start, my guy has bent over backwards to please/impress me.....to the point that it's often turned me off and I've had to tell him to just "loosen up" and please just be himself........to say what's on his mind, swear if he feels the need, stop being on his best behavior, etc..you know?
He's made me the center of his world right now....and talks like we'll be together forever......he seems so sure of it....because I have all the qualities (he says) that he's looking for.
He sometimes almost trips over himself trying to please me. Planning a Friday or Saturday night out is a nightmare (to me), because it's never about what HE wants to do...he always makes it about what *I* want to do..and sometimes I just 'don't know' and wish he'd just take more control, instead of seeming so damn accomodating.
Like you, I've always ended up dating dicks in the past...so this 'nice guy' stuff is a real change.....and actually, it's a little overwhelming.......maybe because I like a guy who's a bit more of a challenge versus someone who comes across as a pushover, you know?
Me and my guy haven't yet been intimate..mostly because there are times when his clingy, needy, overly affectionate behavior turns me off so much that I find myself wondering if we'll be together much longer..and I don't want to sleep with someone I'm not 100% sure of (that would be leading him on a lot, too, I feel..or giving him a clear indication that I'm much more serious about him that i might be..if that makes sense).
He is the nicest guy I've ever met......and I'm very thankful.....but at the same time, his constant eagerness to please is sometimes off-putting.....and makes me think of him as 'weak'.......and I'm not attracted to weak men.
I'm still in the process of trying to deal with all this myself, so unfortunately, I really can't offer you any suggestions...but I just thought I'd let you know that you're not alone in how you're feeling here. It's a yucky place to be in...........as I'm sure you can understand. I DO NOT like feeling like the "princess" ...or that I'm up on a pedestal.....not at all. I like things to be about equality......a partnership........where everything goes both ways.
Thanks JAG2, it's good to know that I'm not the only one in this position (especially since I've been moaning about loneliness since the ending of my last relationship nearly two years ago).
I've decided to give it some time. I'm going to give this at least two more months to see if we can get comfortable with each other. I do think that Tony made some great points, and that may well turn out to be the case where my guy is concerned. If so, it will get sorted out as we get to know each other more, and the (self-applied) pressure is off me to decide if my misgivings require breaking things off. I am going to be careful to not let things escalate too much during these two months. We have some built-in assistance in that: we're both very busy, and he travels a lot for business. So we won't be living in each other's pockets, no matter how keen he is.
If your guy is like what Tony described earlier: confident in himself, genuinely interested in you, and not needing to boast or make himself the focus of attention, then probably you and he just need to get into a groove with each other.
But there is the possibility that your guy is just being clingy and insecure. If you're feeling manipulated by him you should definitely take action of some kind. You could say something like "you decide where we're going to eat this evening, I've run out of ideas." Let him know that you don't always want to be in the driver's seat. It does take time to get to know someone, and if he's a reserved, cautious type this probably isn't out of the ordinary; nevertheless, some guidance from you will help things along. Make him choose sometimes, don't allow him to swallow up all of your free time, things like that. If he's simply an accommodating sort who's unsure of how to proceed, he'll adjust accordingly. If he's desperate and overly needy, that too will become clear.
I think I've grown accustomed to playing a particular role in my relationships: the loving, understanding, accommodating girlfriend (who nonetheless is not a doormat). This guy is requiring me to revise my role a bit. That's not necessarily a bad thing; but it means the dynamic of our relationship is different, and I need to see if I can adjust to it.
Anyone see The Hours? It's a really good movie, not a typical chick-flick (which I usually hate). Anyway, in the movie one character is very ill, and he tells his devoted friend who has been taking care of him for a long time, "what if I do die? Then what will you do? You'll have to start thinking about yourself, your own life, your own problems." When I was with selfish guys whose problems consumed me, I didn't have to think about myself, what I wanted to accomplish in my own right, what I needed to be doing. I just focused on them. A very bad habit, one that yielded me very little. This guy doesn't have issues that will consume me (besides badly needing to have his wardrobe overhauled). I can't ignore things in my own life by getting sidetracked by his. It seems like a no-brainer, but it's actually a little bit strange. I think it's part of why I feel that something is amiss.
Another thing about being with a selfish guy who is completely self-absorbed is that the relationships tend to be overwhelming in the beginning. My ex boyfriend was a quintessential drama queen -- I was even warned about his antics by the mutual friend who introduced us. He certainly swept me off my feet, but he also left me feeling uncertain about him -- the perfect recipe for being consumed by him and his issues. It felt so good, but for some reason all the pieces weren't in place -- why was that? -- I had to solve the puzzle. I was hooked. I completely neglected my own needs and feelings.
My current guy isn't sweeping me off my feet, perhaps because he doesn't have to do a razzle-dazzle routine. His qualities are genuine and enduring, no need for a hard sale, no need to get me to be complicit in his charades by closing my eyes to the obvious. When I was with my ex, the doubts didn't set in until months into the relationship, and by then I was enmeshed in strong emotions and unable to see clearly. So the fact that I'm not completely certain and enthralled with my current guy is not necessarily a bad thing, is it?
So that's where I am at the moment. I think the best thing you can do is feel your way through it, and allow yourself whatever time and space you need to see if you can feel comfortable with him.
Who would have thought that there are hassles with even the nice guys!
Midori, the problem is not with him, the problem is with you. You have some co-dependency and self-esteem issues, when you don't think you deserve this loving attitude, and so you don't understand it and don't know how to deal with it. You like to disappear in a relationship, you want your man to take care of your needs and his own needs at the same time. But you are looking for impossible. The way it works is, he takes care of you and you take care of him. He needs it more, than the bad guys you were with before, you have to be your usual loving, understanding, accomodating self with him. He isn't going to demand anything from you, which is good, and you have to look yourself and take interest in him. Just because he wants to please you doesn't mean he doesn't need anything from you. You are used to giving and not taking in a relationship. Realize, that relationship is a balance of giving and taking. Try to give a little more of yourself in this relationship, you will see that he too has his needs and likes, but they will not be forced upon you. If you don't understand it, you will spend your life with the kind of people you were involved with before, because you let the old pattern of behaviour control your life.
Midori - Could be what Tony says is true. However, it could also be that he is the submissive type and he may want that role always.
I have an old friend who married a guy like that. Think of Archie and Edith reversed. He's the one who jumps to get her the beer.
Sometimes, I suppose, these guys could be confident and giving. However, I've met a few, myself. Many times, these lads are quite insecure, actually. Some can even be dependent type personalities. Sometimes, like with my friends, it works out great.
You sound like me; someone who likes an equal partnership, in which case if he is this sort of fellow, it might not happen.
I think people's 'love styles' are much more hardwired than are even some other aspects of their personalities. What I'm saying is that it is possible he won't 'loosen up'; that that's the kind of guy he is and the kind of relationship he wants. However, the relationship is new and, unfortunately, it will take roughly a year to know him very well.
You could try asking him to describe his vision of a great couple or a wonderful weekend - then listen to see whether it includes him being of service to his beloved to a degree you could handle. If he tells a tale of pampering the queen of his castle, you might have cause for trepidation.
We live in such an incredibly selfish, self centered world that it's very often difficult to understand that there are people out there who get great pleasure in trying to make another person happy.
There are truly people out there who are so delighted and happy with their own lives and want to see others that way too.
Yes, this guy could just an insecure dork but I think midori, who is very perceptive, would have seen that already.
It's really sad we live in a world where nice can be boring and suspcious. Maybe that's why the devil feels so much at home here.
It's funny, when I look at my friends who are in happy long-term relationships, many if not most of them started out just liking their boyfriends/husbands, not being swept off their feet. The first few months of their relationships were somewhat bland, especially compared to intense romances they had experienced in the past. They wondered if the nice guy they were dating wasn't a little too nice .. or something in that vein.
But like I was saying earlier, I think that genuinely good, normal people who aren't putting on some kind of show aren't going to bowl you over right away. They aren't going to suck you into the whirl of their issues. And that leaves you with more time and space to see them objectively, as they are. If you're accustomed, as I am, to whirlwind romances, this slow start doesn't feel right. It's just a matter of recognizing the nature of the difference.
I'm still not sure this nice guy I'm seeing is the one for me. Moimeme makes a good point about what a person's fantasy weekend would involve; I rather suspect that if I put that to this guy he would be stumped. I think it's been a long time since he's been in a relationship, and I think he's still trying to adjust to the idea that his needs & wants factor into the equation as much as mine do. But I'm not sure that he's NOT the one for me either. That's why I'm giving it time.
I think, that those people, for whom nice is boring and suspicious, get what they deserve - bad guys, abusive relationships. And the reason is poor self-esteem. The reality is, they don't want and equal relationship, they want to be in a submissive position.
When u'r ready for a stable, healthy, nice r/s, you'll be open to the people with whom that can happen. Until then, while the crazy dramas seem more exciting, for whatever reason, you'll attract people who create that for you.
We live in such an incredibly selfish, self centered world that it's very often difficult to understand that there are people out there who get great pleasure in trying to make another person happy.
Funny thing about all this, Tony. I'm one of those folks, but when you saw my story, you almost burst a vein trying to persuade me that I'm 'codependent'.
Codependent means, that one looks for an unavailable, that one has no self esteem. Naturally you don't consider yourself "a queen in a castle", and you are probably the one who jumps to give him a beer. Because you want to "make him happy", but ... he doesn't need it, and so you try harder to please him - this is codependence. One cannot be loved, because one doesn't love himself/herself, doesn't have self-worth, needs somebody to look up to, somebody's life to live, forget oneself. What's wrong with feeling like a queen, being loved? So what if he is insecure, you are insecure too, we are all nobody until somebody loves us.
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