In my reading here, I'm finding that a lot of the resident atheists and other non-Christian or non-Muslim posters can quote almost all of the consequences of not believing. But most seem unwilling and unable to actually acknowledge that these religions do contain some very important commands that are beneficial.
Why is it that all of the wacky and outdated "thou shalts" can be located by this group, but the beneficial ones are either denied or explained away as some sort of lucky break?
__________________ "Don't tear down a fence until you know why it was put up." ~ African proverb
First off let me say I personally believe in God, but I just wanted to share my thoughts...
Many religions share some fundamental dictates - don't murder, don't steal, don't fornicate. That kind of thing.
Some would argue that these are just socially adaptive behaviors that are generally encouraged by most all groups of human beings - things that help keep the group functional and cohesive, tenants that are beneficial to all while requiring a due measure of restraint on the part of the individual who benefits from being allowed to remain within that social group or community. Sort of a "payment for services rendered" thing - you pay by restraining yourself and are served thusly with your comparatively cushy position (versus the loner who does have a greater measure of freedom but has to struggle much much more to maintain themselves).
I just think that these "thou shalts" that tend to be socially adaptive (and are also commonalities among various faiths and theologies) are just a reflection a divine internal awareness that we all have, because we are all just extentions of God, we just aren't generally aware of it.
In my reading here, I'm finding that a lot of the resident atheists and other non-Christian or non-Muslim posters can quote almost all of the consequences of not believing. But most seem unwilling and unable to actually acknowledge that these religions do contain some very important commands that are beneficial.
Why is it that all of the wacky and outdated "thou shalts" can be located by this group, but the beneficial ones are either denied or explained away as some sort of lucky break?
It wasn't a lucky break, as humans are smart. Even primitive people can figure a great many things out. Domesticating fire, brewing beer, domesticating livestock, agriculture, metallurgy, even primitive surgery--all have existed for thousands upon thousands of years. None of these things are described in any holy book, nor were they divinely revealed.
To say that "Thou shalt not commit murder" is a concept that only god could give man is nonsense, as every other culture has the same rule, and people weren't killing each other with impunity before the Ten Commandments were codified.
When you look at "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" for example, that carries as much weight as thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife", no?
But we know there is no such thing as a witch, yet the author not only thought there was, but that when you find one you should kill him/her. Are we to assume that this author had a bad day, misunderstood the revelation, or threw in a personal belief among the godly ones?
Notice, too, that we know the "good" ones because we know more about what is going on, and that is why they are "good". At the time of the writing, they were all good and carried equal weight. And as you say yourself, there are some wacky ones. If the Bible is inspired, there shouldn't be ONE wacky one, should there?
Everything in the Bible was written by people living at that time, with their limited understanding of the world and Universe. There ignorance was massive, but that doesn't mean they didn't know ANYTHING.
That said, if in fact god was inspiring the authors, why did he withhold basic information that would have benefited humanity exponentially? He could have ended slavery right then and there, but he chose not to. Every civilized person no finds slavery abhorrent. Why let such a horrible institution thrive for thousands of years when you could end it with a few strokes of a pen?
What about malaria? "Drain standing pools of water" is an easy enough order, yet it is not in the Bible. Malaria is rampant even today, and it mainly kills children. Removing standing water would not eliminate mosquitos, but it would drastically reduce their numbers. Not a hint about that.
When you look at "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" for example, that carries as much weight as thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife", no?
No.
The witch thing is not one of the 10 commandments.
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That said, if in fact god was inspiring the authors, why did he withhold basic information that would have benefited humanity exponentially? He could have ended slavery right then and there, but he chose not to. Every civilized person no finds slavery abhorrent. Why let such a horrible institution thrive for thousands of years when you could end it with a few strokes of a pen?
I hate to bring this up again. Free will and all that. I don't think God intended us to be fetal for our entire existence, floating in a pool of warm water while all nutrients and care are taken of our bodies. Come on, man. You know this better if you have a child....you raise your child and hope they can make good choices. You don't wrap them in bubble wrap and do everything for them. They have to figure something out for themselves.
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What about malaria? "Drain standing pools of water" is an easy enough order, yet it is not in the Bible. Malaria is rampant even today, and it mainly kills children. Removing standing water would not eliminate mosquitos, but it would drastically reduce their numbers. Not a hint about that.
Is there a lot of malaria in the middle east? I didn't they they had much standing water. I mean, we are still talking about the bible, right?
The witch thing is not one of the 10 commandments.
The Ten Commandments aren't the "!0" commandments. There are about 250 commandments, all of which are equal in their importance. Orthodox Jews follow almost all of them, Christians picked out the "Ten" and ignore most of the rest. There is another group of commandments that are listed in a series of ten, also, in Exodus 34 11-27.
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I hate to bring this up again. Free will and all that. I don't think God intended us to be fetal for our entire existence, floating in a pool of warm water while all nutrients and care are taken of our bodies. Come on, man. You know this better if you have a child....you raise your child and hope they can make good choices. You don't wrap them in bubble wrap and do everything for them. They have to figure something out for themselves.
The great thing is that you can think whatever you want about what god wants and you'd be right. God is funny that way.
When you raise your children, you don't deny them medicine until they figure it out on their own, do you? Of course not. Every generation does not repeat the discoveries of the previous one; rather, we build on the discoveries of the past.
If your child analogy holds, the most recent generation is god's favorite, since each has the most knowledge and understanding. What you suggest is that god, would rather have millions of his creations live in horrible misery and die painful, lonely deaths as slaves than fix it.
Would you do that to your kids?
Your free will argument also fails because he found it important to give rules at all. We are commanded to take a day of rest, on pain of death. Is this more valuable information and a greater key to happiness than penicillin is? Humans would still make mistakes and learn from them, it's just they would suffer a great deal less. Given the ability to do so, would you not lessen the suffering of your children? Come on, man.
If god exists, he is the sum of all knowledge. Yet in his holy book that gives us a guide into his mind and intentions, it contains nothing that would be revelatory knowledge in 200 BC. In fact, in some ways it is behind the curve, as there were cultures ahead of the Hebrews at that time. How can that be?
It
Is there a lot of malaria in the middle east? I didn't they they had much standing water. I mean, we are still talking about the bible, right?[/QUOTE]
Christians picked out the "Ten" and ignore most of the rest.
Ahem....excuse me....WE don't pick out the "Ten" and ignore the rest. We've come to realize there is no possible way to even hold the, "Ten" in this day and age. We needed a Saviour Who'd take the responsibility for the sin we inherited from our fallen fathers. God sent our Saviour, Himself as man. This was the ONLY way to bridge that gap to renew our Relationship with our Maker.
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The great thing is that you can think whatever you want about what god wants and you'd be right. God is funny that way.
Not so. God clearly commands His followers to, "take up your cross and follow Me"....you do know what that means, yes? Just in case, we die within ourselfs and become a living sacrifice so that others will see our lives and how He's blessed them, increasing His Kingdom. It's NOT an easy life, in fact many who are reading my very words may lose his or her life for following Christ. Believe it our not, I would be honored to do so!
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When you raise your children, you don't deny them medicine until they figure it out on their own, do you? Of course not. Every generation does not repeat the discoveries of the previous one; rather, we build on the discoveries of the past.
Are you assuming there where no physicians in biblical times? Luke, (One of the apostles) himself was a physician. They had remedies, and they had medication.
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If your child analogy holds, the most recent generation is god's favorite, since each has the most knowledge and understanding. What you suggest is that god, would rather have millions of his creations live in horrible misery and die painful, lonely deaths as slaves than fix it.
I believe the poster meant, "Some things" not all. I don't blame you, it's your nature to put words in people's mouths.
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Your free will argument also fails because he found it important to give rules at all. We are commanded to take a day of rest, on pain of death. Is this more valuable information and a greater key to happiness than penicillin is? Humans would still make mistakes and learn from them, it's just they would suffer a great deal less. Given the ability to do so, would you not lessen the suffering of your children? Come on, man.
Again, more spear throwing. You sound like the pharisee. God gave us intellegience. Christ was caught healing on the sabbath, and what did He say? "If your oxen is stuck in the ditch on the sabbath, would you leave them there to die?" No...you wouldn't. If something has to be done on the sabbath that can't wait, God doesn't expect you to neglect or defer from it. To me, EVERYDAY is the Sabbath because I reflect my thankfulness to Him daily.
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If god exists, he is the sum of all knowledge. Yet in his holy book that gives us a guide into his mind and intentions, it contains nothing that would be revelatory knowledge in 200 BC. In fact, in some ways it is behind the curve, as there were cultures ahead of the Hebrews at that time. How can that be?
He does exist, and He is the sum of all Knowledge, in fact He promised all of us, (including you) the very same. Your problem lies in the fac that you lean towards your own understanding, and are fearful to put your trust in an infinite all knowing, all loving God.
Everyone wants tangible proof. Believe in Him, and you'll see, you'll feel, and you'll even KNOW He exists, because He will in fact indwell with you and in your heart.
That said, if in fact god was inspiring the authors, why did he withhold basic information that would have benefited humanity exponentially? He could have ended slavery right then and there, but he chose not to. Every civilized person no finds slavery abhorrent. Why let such a horrible institution thrive for thousands of years when you could end it with a few strokes of a pen?
I love sci-fi themed shows. One of the shows that I love is Stargate. The humans from Earth are new to all the technology out there, and some of the cultures that they meet are just not about to give such technology to babes that could use it to destroy themselves because they are just not mentally and emotionally advanced enough to handle it.
I take this line of reasoning with much of the Bible. I fully believe that God gave us what we could handle at the time.
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What about malaria? "Drain standing pools of water" is an easy enough order, yet it is not in the Bible. Malaria is rampant even today, and it mainly kills children. Removing standing water would not eliminate mosquitos, but it would drastically reduce their numbers. Not a hint about that.
You like pulling things out of the air and trying to make an argument about them. I agree with B_O, they were in the Middle East. The Bible focuses mainly on the culture that its directed towards. This focus is one of the main reasons for so much misinterpretation of the Bible and some of its laws by western civilizations.
For the record, though, my question isn't limited to the Ten Commandments. There is a lot in the Bible about things we should do and things we shouldn't do. I am of the mindset that quite a bit of it is just plain good sense. Many non-religious people have taken to using the wisdom in some of the rules from the Bible and applied them to their lives. The concept of a Sabbath is one. Just taking one day a week to do nothing but relax and chill out. Its refreshing and one doesn't have to be religious to do that.
I love sci-fi themed shows. One of the shows that I love is Stargate. The humans from Earth are new to all the technology out there, and some of the cultures that they meet are just not about to give such technology to babes that could use it to destroy themselves because they are just not mentally and emotionally advanced enough to handle it.
I take this line of reasoning with much of the Bible. I fully believe that God gave us what we could handle at the time.
This is a common argument, and it is inherently flawed. Humans were just as smart then as we are now, and it is obvious looking around even today if god commands something people will follow it.
Beyond that, the Jains were around (and still are) since 900 years before Jesus. Their tenets are as follows:
Non-violence (Ahimsa) - to cause no harm to living beings.
Truth (Satya) - to always speak the truth in a harmless manner.
Non-stealing (Asteya) - to not take anything that is not willingly given.
Celibacy (Brahmacarya) - to not indulge in sensual pleasures.
Non-possession (Aparigraha) - to detach from people, places, and material things.
Those rules are 2900 years old. The first one not only covers murder, but slavery as well. Unless you wish to argue that Hebrews are somehow deficient and could not comprehend rules like this, it is clear that humans could handle any modern concept of morality.
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You like pulling things out of the air and trying to make an argument about them. I agree with B_O, they were in the Middle East. The Bible focuses mainly on the culture that its directed towards. This focus is one of the main reasons for so much misinterpretation of the Bible and some of its laws by western civilizations.
I do not pull anything out of the air. I am also aware of the history of the Bible, and what life was like back then. None of that is the point, however. The discussion is about more than what Hebrews knew and didn't know. Obviously, the Hebrews didn't know very much or they would've put it in their book. And no offense to them, they knew what they knew. Hence me not being surprised at all by the wacky rules found therein, the claims of the dead rising from the grave, or the misogyny. It was written by a primitive people.
But the Bible isn't just "a book" or just "a record of their culture." It is considered the Divinely Inspired Word of God. God knows everything, right? If that is so, then why did he not impart any knowledge of real value? The reason that I have brought up other cultures is that God chose not to give the Hebrews benefits THAT OTHER CULTURES ALREADY HAD. The Hebrews are his chosen people, yet he allowed them to remain developmentally far behind Asian cultures of the same period.
This is only meaningful AT ALL if the Bible is divinely inspired. If it is not, then it is a great window into a past Middle Eastern culture. And that's it.
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For the record, though, my question isn't limited to the Ten Commandments. There is a lot in the Bible about things we should do and things we shouldn't do. I am of the mindset that quite a bit of it is just plain good sense. Many non-religious people have taken to using the wisdom in some of the rules from the Bible and applied them to their lives. The concept of a Sabbath is one. Just taking one day a week to do nothing but relax and chill out. Its refreshing and one doesn't have to be religious to do that.
Beyond the example you mentioned, I can't think of any others that make good sense, save the obvious of not murdering, not stealing, or bearing false witness against people and those are found in documents older than the Bible.
Beyond the example you mentioned, I can't think of any others that make good sense.
Just because you can't think of them, doesn't mean that others can't find something appropriate that they can incorporate into their lives.
This thread isn't only about you, or me for that matter. Someone might find a scripture recommendation that I just skim over extremely helpful to them.
I take it though that a "sabbath" makes sense to you?
.... is that god, would rather have millions of his creations live in horrible misery and die painful, lonely deaths as slaves than fix it.
According to the Bible misery was brought on as a consequence of questioning the creators right to rule his creation. Calling in an airstrike and starting over or other forms of quick fix would not have resolved the core question of the benefits and rightfulness of the creator to rule his creation.
In my reading here, I'm finding that a lot of the resident atheists and other non-Christian or non-Muslim posters can quote almost all of the consequences of not believing. But most seem unwilling and unable to actually acknowledge that these religions do contain some very important commands that are beneficial.
Why is it that all of the wacky and outdated "thou shalts" can be located by this group, but the beneficial ones are either denied or explained away as some sort of lucky break?
Glad you admit that the Bible and Koran contain some "wacky" commands. It follows that the holy books are either not the word of God or they are the word of a God who is wacky.
Just because you can't think of them, doesn't mean that others can't find something appropriate that they can incorporate into their lives.
I never said there wasn't. Obviously millions of Jews don't eat pork, regardless of my feelings on the matter. I can on;y speak for myself.
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This thread isn't only about you, or me for that matter. Someone might find a scripture recommendation that I just skim over extremely helpful to them.
Notice I didn't write, "There aren't any" or "nobody can find any" I just said i can't think of any, and I can't.
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I take it though that a "sabbath" makes sense to you?
Nope. "Sabbath" has religious connotations with which I am uncomfortable. Moreover, the great idea of the "sabbath" really isn't one. I suggest you look at the rules prescribed for what you can and cannot do on the "sabbath." For example, building a fire on the sabbath is punishable by death. Read Numbers 15:32-36. It wasn't as if god said, "hey, take a break, relax, have some friends over and grill out--maybe get a ball game going." On the Sabbath you are forbidden to do ANYTHING but pray and contemplate the Lord.
Even today, Orthodox Jews cannot turn on the lights in their apartments, they cannot turn on th oven, they cannot use the phone, they cannot turn on their television, they cannot spend money, no surfing, no working in the yard, no model-building...shall I go on? YOU CAN"T DO ANYTHING. That hardly sounds like "a nice day off" or even remotely relaxing. In fact, it sounds worse than going to work! The have stopped stoning people to death if they screw up, which is nice.
I personally like the idea of two days off, to do with whatever an individual wishes. I am glad that we in the West only had to wait for 2,000 years for that to happen.
According to the Bible misery was brought on as a consequence of questioning the creators right to rule his creation. Calling in an airstrike and starting over or other forms of quick fix would not have resolved the core question of the benefits and rightfulness of the creator to rule his creation.
Then why the Flood? He certainly tried the quick fix. It didn't work (How is it a plan of a god wouldn't work?), but he gave it a shot.
Beyond the example you mentioned, I can't think of any others that make good sense, save the obvious of not murdering, not stealing, or bearing false witness against people and those are found in documents older than the Bible.
I asked if the concept of a sabbath was okay with you because of the above. You responded with that when I mentioned the Sabbath as something that even non-religious people have taken away from the Bible (or other religions) as a good thing.
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Originally Posted by Moai
Nope. "Sabbath" has religious connotations with which I am uncomfortable. Moreover, the great idea of the "sabbath" really isn't one.
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