Early-ish in our relationship, my ex admitted that he couldn't empathize with people. At the time, I remember being a little taken aback by that, but I rationalized it with "well, he's aware of it at least!"
He wasn't lying, that's for sure. There were lots of instances throughout our relationship where he just didn't see, understand, or care what was happening with other people. It bothered me, but again I justified it somehow.
Yesterday, I started thinking: a person who can't empathize with others probably can't ever truly love someone else.
It was a rather obvious "duh" moment for me: he probably didn't love me after all. How could he? He couldn't empathize with me. So he IS broken. He could cheat because he couldn't place himself in my shoes to understand the devastation he was causing (which is flabbergasting considering he was cheated on so he has a direct experience of what he put me through). He has learned nothing from his failed marriage because he couldn't ever see the world from his wife's perspective (empathy), to see what HE had done to contribute to its demise. He could leap directly into another next relationship after me, because he doesn't care about the pain he will eventually cause the hooch due to his effed-up-ness.
I wish I had connected the lack of empathy to an inability to love much much sooner. How did I think I would be a shining exception to his general disdain of, and lack of concern for, humanity?
(I know the answer, actually: he does love his daughter. And that threw me off and made me think he was capable of loving me.)
i don't know if this is the same thing but i will say i think i dated someone a bit similar.
He could only try to understand how i felt after he did something wrong or inconsiderate with me, (things absolutely anyone would know are not good to do in a relationship...too many examples to get started) he would spend days trying to figure out what he did to cause me to break up with him and once i gave him some leads he could see it and he would apologize but very soon it would go back to this cold, distant feeling when anything sensitive arrose.
He also once stated he had no interest or tolerence for anything outside his own interests. Do i think that spilled over into other people's feelings? I know so. So sad he was so selfish. I think it's a behavioral disfunction and really kind of creepy.
Once i told him my best friend's mom had breast cancer and he immediatley snapped at me saying "don't tell me that ****, i don't want to hear that" all because it was the type of information that could possibly make him sad or worried.
How screwed up. Imagine having kids with these guys? Poor things. They would be loved, but they'd have horrible role models.
I was hung up over him forever because he's talented and influential and had a new girl pretty soon afterwards even though he was still obsessed and in love with me. I was really just attached to someone loving me so much and seeing who i was and being inspired by that. I have since met several other men who can see that too, who aren't crazy.
Hold on to that notion. You don't need that at all. You're too good.
Last edited by dharris27; 23rd July 2008 at 4:22 PM.
Sunshine, my ex was the same way! She never could put herself in my shoes and understand how her words or actions affected me. Her reaction to me getting upset with something she said or something she did was to say I was too sensitive, or I was being a pussy, and needed to grow some balls!!!
Sunshine, my ex was the same way! She never could put herself in my shoes and understand how her words or actions affected me. Her reaction to me getting upset with something she said or something she did was to say I was too sensitive, or I was being a pussy, and needed to grow some balls!!!
My ex as well. She wanted to know what I was feeling but If I had something bad to say about her and how she treated me it was either my fault, I was crazy or I was too sensitive. No wonder I shut up. No empathy at all is a soulless person. Sad to say but I feel sorry for them.
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You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later. - Mitch Hedburg
A lack of empathy from an individual that goes beyond a simple 'not understanding' or just 'not getting it' is usually a trait related to either a borderline or full-blown personality disorder. There are of course varying degrees of it. My ex had absolutely no empathy, even with his children and very little insight into his personality or lack of empathy - to a point which was actually scary at times. As the previous person stated, a lack of empathy reflects a lack of soul, vibrancy and vitality of life. Someone who can't reach those things is usually fractured or damaged in some way which is hidden from them and those around them. In the case of my ex, he was very very good at mirroring others emotions, passing them off as his own. He was a very accomplished actor. The last few days I'd been nostalgising why he drew me, why I loved him. Now, I've just recalled why I'm glad he's gone. Thank you.
A lack of empathy from an individual that goes beyond a simple 'not understanding' or just 'not getting it' is usually a trait related to either a borderline or full-blown personality disorder. There are of course varying degrees of it. My ex had absolutely no empathy, even with his children and very little insight into his personality or lack of empathy - to a point which was actually scary at times. As the previous person stated, a lack of empathy reflects a lack of soul, vibrancy and vitality of life. Someone who can't reach those things is usually fractured or damaged in some way which is hidden from them and those around them. In the case of my ex, he was very very good at mirroring others emotions, passing them off as his own. He was a very accomplished actor. The last few days I'd been nostalgising why he drew me, why I loved him. Now, I've just recalled why I'm glad he's gone. Thank you.
Yeah, I hardly know where to start with the stories. My ex shares a lot of the traits of a schizoid. He's emotionally unavailable. He's a "clam" conversationally. He doesn't know himself, at all, and half the time couldn't, or wouldn't, name whatever feelings he was experiencing. He admitted that he doesn't experience very high highs or very low lows. When I asked if that was just how he was or if he was suppressing his feelings, he said "probably a bit of both." His affect was fairly flat and his facial expressions controlled. Everything emotional was intellectualized, including his divorce. I always suspected he had never dealt with his feelings of loss in the marriage, but his lack of empathy preceded the divorce, for sure. Arguably that was the reason his wife cheated on him with an emotionally present guy, whom she recently married.
Part of me just feels sad for him that he lacks soul, vibrancy, vitality of life. He might argue with that, but I think he has gotten good at mirroring a lot of socially expected behaviors. AND I think he's just not a deep person. I think I am grieving, in part, my inability to draw him out or help him connect back to his feelings. From what I've read, though, someone like my ex will tend to run from genuine love. He certainly ran, ran, ran away from me...
From what I've read, though, someone like my ex will tend to run from genuine love. He certainly ran, ran, ran away from me...
I think this statement is true as well. Especially if you've been hurt before. If someone comes around that actually treats you well and falls in love with you at first they may think great but later, with their history, they will assume it will fail no matter what. So they start these defensive maneuvers.
My ex was cheated on I think and she probably was constantly behaving like this because of this pain. I know guys in her past treated her poorly as well. Whether or not it's the whole truth I don't know. She rarely if ever spoke to me of how she felt. Again, protecting herself because of being hurt in the past. She always asked me first and her reaction was always based on my response. It wasn't real. It's all very confusing but I know her history has a lot to do with how she treated me. It probably has a lot to do with how he treated you as well.
[quote=Chinook;1761292]A lack of empathy from an individual that goes beyond a simple 'not understanding' or just 'not getting it' is usually a trait related to either a borderline or full-blown personality disorder. There are of course varying degrees of it. My ex had absolutely no empathy, even with his children and very little insight into his personality or lack of empathy - to a point which was actually scary at times. As the previous person stated, a lack of empathy reflects a lack of soul, vibrancy and vitality of life. Someone who can't reach those things is usually fractured or damaged in some way which is hidden from them and those around them. In the case of my ex, he was very very good at mirroring others emotions, passing them off as his own. He was a very accomplished actor. The last few days I'd been nostalgising why he drew me, why I loved him. Now, I've just recalled why I'm glad he's gone. Thank you.[/quote
Think about the basic feelings, not the resultant behaviors...
IMO, empathy is the basis for the sincere and honest behavior of caring. Caring can exist as the result of other personality characteristics, but, literally, "feeling" another's emotional energy and taking it as one's own (in the moment) results in a completely selfless, almost blind, caring. Combine that with a sensitive nervous system and you've got the basis for some pretty profound mental illness BTDT....
Anyway, finding a healthy balance between empathy and love (the emotions) has been key to the progress I've made in MC. A prerequisite? I don't know...perhaps a partner....
Interesting subject..... My work now is to effectively attract someone with a similar perspective, rather than the emotional blanks I seem to attract. When I say "two dimensional", I don't mean it as an insult, but rather as an accurate description of how they appear to me. Extant, substantive, but without a depth of emotional energy. OK, my problem, I know
(I know the answer, actually: he does love his daughter. And that threw me off and made me think he was capable of loving me.)
The thing is, he is loving his daughter from his personal and very narrow perspective of what "love" is. And he will "love" her deeply and truly whenever she fits into his little box. And the other stuff that she is and expresses, he will find unacceptable.
I have a parent exactly as you describe, down to also knowing their own inability to empathize. I also didn't understand it, the first time I heard it said. Black and white thinking, judgment and narcissism are some issues that might also cloud how these people experience and treat their outer world.
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"They always say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." ~ Andy Warhol
The thing is, he is loving his daughter from his personal and very narrow perspective of what "love" is. And he will "love" her deeply and truly whenever she fits into his little box. And the other stuff that she is and expresses, he will find unacceptable.
I have a parent exactly as you describe, down to also knowing their own inability to empathize. I also didn't understand it, the first time I heard it said. Black and white thinking, judgment and narcissism are some issues that might also cloud how these people experience and treat their outer world.
This is such a befuddling piece of the puzzle to me. I asked him about his daughter's birth, whether it had been one of those lifechanging moments of looking into your child's eyes for the first time and feeling that rush of emotion... and he said..."nope". For him it was just a biological event. My little red flag siren went off -- this was such a strange reaction. But he also said that they "planned for", and wanted a child, even though their marriage was already crap by the time they conceived her.
But seeing him with her? He's totally present to her and all his attention is on her. Granted, she's six so it's very activity-based (drawing, riding scooters, playing tag, reading books). When she would cry a lot at night, missing her mother, he was pretty good about holding and comforting her. Even I can see there was a depth of emotion with her that I saw with no other person, including me.
Then again, he seemed very poorly attuned to the developmental stage of a 6-year old: he was totally fine with me sleeping over from the earliest months we were together. But for six months I refused to because I feared the emotional impact on her. He also thought she was exceptionally mature for her age and understood "more than you would think" about the divorce. I rolled my eyes (on the inside) when he said that because...come on...she's SIX. Five at the time, actually. And I got to witness her first real meltdown. It shocked Eric to the core because he thought she was handling the whole thing like a "trouper".
I don't know how to reconcile his behavior with his daughter with his very real inability to empathize with other people. It 'tricked' me into thinking he has a sensitive core.
Last edited by sunshinegirl; 23rd July 2008 at 11:37 PM.
His daughter, is in a way, an extension of himself. He loves her, because she is his "flesh and blood". Wait for the puberty and adulthood, when she has a full-grown independent life and personality. I bet you, he won't be so great and understanding then.
It shocked Eric to the core because he thought she was handling the whole thing like a "trouper".
Exactly as Nevermind says.
He "saw" a 'trouper' because that is what HE wanted his daughter to be -- her own reality was beside the point; will always be beside the point.
When her reality does not match his desired reality for her, he will expend great energy convincing her that SHE is "wrong", misinterpreting, not understanding, making a big deal of nothing, etc., etc.
He will minimize or deny everything she feels and is, that does not match his illusion of her.
In my case, parent's desire (box) for me is "happy and successful" -- my experiences and feelings are limited to that. I cannot express sadness, dissatisfaction, dysfunctional behaviours and habits, etc., etc.
And because of their limited range of emotions, one cannot be "too" happy or celebrate "too" loudly, either. They can't distinguish passion from anger -- both are just a "too strong" emotion for them to understand and allow.
For my sis-in-law, her parent's box is that SiL is "mean and inconsiderate" -- doesn't matter what she does for her parent, it is perceived as negative or only self-serving. SiL gets to be sad and dysfunctional, but not happy and successful.
So...who knows what Eric's daughter's limits will be, but it is more than very likely that she will have them imposed upon her.
It 'tricked' me into thinking he has a sensitive core.
Well, they are EXTREMELY sensitive to their own needs and pain. Sensitive like a truckload of dynamite, to their feelings of being misunderstood, misinterpreted, slighted, not considered, unappreciated, etc.
Some will quietly nurse their cargo of grievances and grief, and others will 'explode' it to those around them.
It's all fear-based, and very sad for them. Not at all that they don't have a Soul...their Soul is just so far buried beneath fear and anxiety that they have such a difficult time connecting to it. They give up Life's most joyous highs all so that they can avoid the smallest of Life's pain.
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