I have a question, not to start a huge dispute or anything, but how come when God is brought up in a thread here, all these people that obviously know nothing about God or the Christian faith have to pop in with their disdainful and discourteous remarks concerning a person's faith in the Lord? Yes, I agree there are some people who claim to be Christians that do not behave like Christians. But that doesn't mean all Christians are like that. Also, no one is perfect. Most Christians have faith in God to help them make it through this life and into the next (in Heaven). Having faith in something that someone else doesn't believe in is not a horrible thing. It's called Free-will. God gave that to you whether you believe in Him or not. Not believing in Him is also free-will. So why do Christians have to be berated constantly for believing in something that really and truely does not affect anyone but themselves? And go ahead, say it. Because some like to shove it in your face. Ok. So atheists and agnostics don't shove it in a Christian's face when they find out their faith is in the Lord? Or try to ridicule their beliefs? I cannot count on my two hands and two feet the number of times I have been put down and/or poked fun at because I believe in a higher power that you can't see, can't feel (literally), and can't touch. That's why it's called MY belief and YOUR belief.
because it's still politically correct to bash Christians of all walks, whereas you cannot tell racist or homosexual jokes w/o being called down.
my guess is because people choose to remain mired in their ignorance of things spiritual. This forum has quite a few outspoken non-believers and atheists, a few of whom I highly respect (lovelorcet and maoi) because they make me really think about why I believe as I do. And I don't feel they shake my convictions, but help rather help me stay grounded because they are grounded in their beliefs but still treat others respectfully in their dialogues even though they don't agree.
it's much easier to bash someone whose beliefs you don't understand or even want to try to understand, because you want to be unwavering in your viewpoint.
my advice is to just let their behavior just gloss over you like butter over a bald monkey, and just keep on keepin' on, i.e., just go and love and serve the Lord by loving and serving man. My thought is that we do good works not to get ourselves to heaven, but to bring the Good News to others and to help them into heaven.
__________________ "It's the longest Hail Mary pass in the history of either football or Marys," said Rep. Barney Frank, one of the chief bailout negotiators.
It's funny you mention that- I have spent my entire life defending my position as an Athiest with my mother and extended family. It became such an issue for me that I actually studied Religious Studies as a major in university. I didn't limit my study to Christianity, but many philosophies and doctrines.
I have had strangers actually tell me I am going to hell because I don't believe in their god, my mother tells me that I am just confused and I will outgrow my belief.
I don't like to impose my beliefs on others- but I will defend myself if someone challenges me or berates me for not sharing their views.
I have read the bible from cover to cover and studied many doctrines at length. I still don't believe in any higher power and I know I never will. I won't impose my beliefs on others though. I may not believe, but I think it's important to have tolerance for what others believe in.
Religion is a sensitive subject, it's hard to have a rational discussion about it because beliefs are very much entrenched in people on an intense emotional level.
An important thing I learned in school was to debate without the emotional influence. It's still not easy to do when someone tells you what you believe so intensely in is wrong.
I truly think it's often best to agree to disagree when it comes to sensitive issues.
I have been known to err on the side of disdain, although after some dialogue with posters like Quank and Moose, I too have respect for some of the believers, because they are good people with intelligent outlooks and some interesting things to say.
I too respect lovelorcet and Moai- they have helped me understand more about atheism, and strengthened my beliefs that there is no higher power.
There are some other posters who believe however, who dispense cookie cutter advice like "find jesus and your marriage/love/friendship/etc etc problems will be over" and they seem to be on LS solely for that reason, they never ask for advice or give much information away about themselves.
There were some other posters who went a little wacky too, and posted endless quotes from the bible and scripture, which got a little tiresome as they never seemed to actually have an opinion of their own.
Thats why some people get frustrated with some christians.
I think a big part of it is the sheer overwhelming prevelance of Christianity in our society. If you are not Christian it can get be quite annoying. I think it's far easier to operate in our society if you are a Christian, particularly in the south. So, there is a certain amount of built up hostility, probably. A lot of agnostics/atheists don't feel comfortable talking about it in many social situations, so the internet, with it's anonymity, sort of opens them up a little.
Just some examples...
To this day I've yet to tell my gf's parents that I am an atheist/agnostic. Being Catholic, I have no doubt that they wouldn't be that understanding at all.
I won't put snarky atheist/agnostic bumber stickers on my car because I'm afraid of what my co-workers would think. Worst case scenario, it could actually influence things such as raises and promotions. I like to think people are not judgmental , but the truth is some of them are.
Christian bumber stickers are, of course, common and totally acceptable where I work.
I still can't buy Brandy on a Sunday, damn it!
For some reason I have to put my hand on a Bible if I go to court. I might as well put it on a copy of Moby Dick.
Also, probably most of us agnostic/atheists spent the better part of our youth and young adult years being indoctrinated, and we had to go through a certain rebellious period. My dad made me go to church long after I stopped believing. You have no idea how annoying this was to me when I was a 13 yo boy.
Truth is there is still a lot of prejudice out there against atheists/agnostics. I don't think it is anything about the believers themselves, necessarily. I think it's simply a matter of the inevitable prejudice of the majority view against the minority view. Sadly, this seems to be human nature.
And... if you don't believe me when I say there is prejudice out there...
Do you think an outspoken atheist would have a chance at the Presidency?
How about a gay person?
I wonder which would have a harder time?
Last edited by electric_sheep; 30th June 2008 at 4:25 PM.
because it's still politically correct to bash Christians of all walks, whereas you cannot tell racist or homosexual jokes w/o being called down.
As it should be.
It's useful to draw a distinction, when talking about the "isms", between things which a person cannot change, vs. beliefs and attitudes.
So, for example, it was okay to be "prejudiced" against Nazi's during WWII.
But, a woman can't help that she is a woman, just like I can't help that I'm of European descent.
But yeah, I do agree with you somewhat. It's my familiarity with Christianity which emboldens me to be critical of it. Honestly though, I'll share my feelings with anyone who is curious, unless I detect that their faith and viewpoint has caused them to become "unhinged" a bit, and they might possibly get violent. As absurd at it sounds, this isn't unheard of.
I have had strangers actually tell me I am going to hell because I don't believe in their god, my mother tells me that I am just confused and I will outgrow my belief.
see, this is where I disagree with "good" Christians. Yes, I'd be concerned about you, but I'd also trust in Divine Providence that you are meant to be where you are on your so-called spiritual journey. And that if you're truly meant to answer a call from a Higher Power, then you will. The most I can do is model my faith by treating you they way I ought to be treating you, like one of God's beloved children.
though it kills me that people still think they can damn others to hell! I thought that was only between you and your Maker!
d-lish, I apologize on their behalf. They're being dumb-butts.
I don't like to impose my beliefs on others- but I will defend myself if someone challenges me or berates me for not sharing their views.
I think this is exactly how the Christians on this forum feel. Threads are started for the purpose of berating Christians. "Boy dies because of his religous beliefs", "Will these people go to hell", and the like.
Christians didn't start these threads.
I agree with you, though. I totally respect the right of others to believe as they please - so long as they don't live rent free in my home (LOL).
__________________ Don't flag me, 'cause I'm honest...
I think this is exactly how the Christians on this forum feel. Threads are started for the purpose of berating Christians. "Boy dies because of his religous beliefs", "Will these people go to hell", and the like.
I actually started both of those threads.
I'd love for you to show me where I was berating christians.
__________________ Suppose we've chosen the wrong god, everytime we got to church we're making him madder and madder. - H J Simpson.
I think this is exactly how the Christians on this forum feel. Threads are started for the purpose of berating Christians. "Boy dies because of his religous beliefs", "Will these people go to hell", and the like.
Christians didn't start these threads.
I definitely agree some of these threads are started just to stir people up.
I myself was particularly annoyed by the "Proof God exists" thread. I honestly just ignored this entire section of loveshack until one day I noticed that thread on the overview page.
When I was reading over the thread I found many posts very irritating. A lot of the discourse had a negative edge to it, on all sides. So of course this irritation came across in my posts probably.
This is just like arguments escalate with couples, actually.
One thing that an atheist or an agnostic will find irritating is this...
when religious people speak, they often forgo the use of qualifiers like "I believe", or "I think". So, e.g., instead of saying "Personally, I believe Jesus will save you". They will say "Jesus will save you." I don't think they mean anything by it, but it can be annoying to people who don't share that belief.
People with all sorts of viewpoints do this. A Muslim might not qualify his statement about Mohamed, for example. For people who grew up in the States though, Christianity is even MORE irritating, because a lot of us have a personal history of family conflict around it. So, we might be inclined to just shrug off the "unqualified" statement about Mohamed, we interpret a similar statement about Jesus as fighting words. I'm not saying we should, I'm just saying that's how it feels.
So, unfortunately, the discourse between the religious and the non-religious is not always a high level one. Even the discourse within a religion is often acrimonious! The topic is so fundamental to our identities, I guess it's inevitable that people get carried away.
One possible solution might be to have a section where people can "hash it out". I appreciate that a lot of people simply want uplifting spiritual support, and not philosophical discussion. Perhaps there should be a section for people who are not so emotionally invested? And threads of that nature could be moved there.
I think a big part of it is the sheer overwhelming prevelance of Christianity in our society. If you are not Christian it can get be quite annoying. I think it's far easier to operate in our society if you are a Christian, particularly in the south. So, there is a certain amount of built up hostility, probably. A lot of agnostics/atheists don't feel comfortable talking about it in many social situations, so the internet, with it's anonymity, sort of opens them up a little.
honey, even if you're the wrong "flavor" of Christian, you get razzed. Just try being Catholic in East Texas. I've interviewed old-times who have told me that people would ask about their horns and their tails, about the secret underground passages between rectories and convents – one sweet old lady told me that she was once asked if it was true that the priest got to sleep with the bride on the wedding night! Personally speaking, I was surprised to learn that Catholics are not Christian – which is totally ironic, considering that Christian denominations we know today are split-offs of the split-offs of the split-offs of the split-off from Catholicism. Hence the term "Protestant."
I still can't buy Brandy on a Sunday, damn it!
honey, if you're waiting til Sunday to purchase something to get your drink on, you need to rethink your strategy
For some reason I have to put my hand on a Bible if I go to court. I might as well put it on a copy of Moby Dick.
ah, swearing in on a Bible. Which is hilariously ironic, given that people are so paranoid about keeping church and state separate.
Do you think an outspoken atheist would have a chance at the Presidency?
How about a gay person? I wonder which would have a harder time?
there's a good toss-up. I'd put my bet on the gay guy getting elected, simply because the masses of this country would have a hard time supporting someone who doesn't embrace a recognized spiritual belief, even if they're back-sliders themselves ...
I have had strangers actually tell me I am going to hell because I don't believe in their god, my mother tells me that I am just confused and I will outgrow my belief.
see, this is where I disagree with "good" Christians. Yes, I'd be concerned about you, but I'd also trust in Divine Providence that you are meant to be where you are on your so-called spiritual journey. And that if you're truly meant to answer a call from a Higher Power, then you will. The most I can do is model my faith by treating you they way I ought to be treating you, like one of God's beloved children.
though it kills me that people still think they can damn others to hell! I thought that was only between you and your Maker!
d-lish, I apologize on their behalf. They're being dumb-butts.
It's ok, lol. I think judgement is a reality on both ends.
That's why I think it's important to just agree to disagree. I have def seen antagonistic posts from both sides of the coin. Sometimes I will read a post and get so angry...begin a response, then simply delete it.
I fully admit that before I went to school, I had no tolerance for religion whatsover- I had deep and utter contempt for anything and everything "Jesus" based. That had so much to do with my experience with religion as a child... being forced to go to church and just accept what I was being fed without being allowed to ask questions. The same people that were preaching basic tenants of scripture- were breaking those very rules... and that confused me as a child. It eventually turned into contempt when my curiousity and questioning was stifled.
I have respect for people that research the whole gamet before claiming to believe in something. It doesn't matter whether you claim to be a athiest, agnostic, Christian, etc... I think it's enlightening to look into all aspects of something.... even the arguements against what you believe. Then you can call yourself well informed. I think it's the people that are well informed that tend to have more tolerance for others- no matter what they believe.
I don't think the persecution part bugs me as much as seeing Hollywood mocking us yet "borrowing" all this wonderful Christian (particularly Catholic) imagery because it needs good visuals. Like clergy in collars (high church/Catholic), exorcism rites, crucifixes (good gore factor) and things like that. They mock us, but they need us. grrrr ...
I have faith and it works for ME and thats all that matters.
nicely put, Thumb. A colleague of mine wrote this in his blog, and it hits home: I'm the perfect example of blind faith; I believe, but I don't have a shred of fact to support my beliefs … I don't need any proof of anything to make faith work for me. It just does.
I know it grates on folks who need visible proof, a scientific or mathematical equation to "validate" faith and spirituality, but sometimes embracing the unknown is enough; it's the whole point of the exercise!
Last edited by quankanne; 30th June 2008 at 5:21 PM.
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