[Taramere]

Originally Posted by Admiral Thrawn

But the concept still is that people who commit suicide end up in hell - and I find that concept hard to swallow, especially if a suicide is driven by a scenerio like I illusrated above or if someone really had such a bad life.

There's an old criminal case dealing with culpability where a young woman who was being chased by a group of men (who wanted to rape her) ran straight over a cliff. They were found to be culpable for her death.

Were they? She must have seen the cliff edge. She must have known what would happen if she kept running. Might some people say "no...she made the decision to take her own life....it was open to her to stop running towards that cliff edge and simply deal with what life had decided to throw at her. In this case, a gang rape which may or may not have ended in her murder. She refused, effectively she killed herself and therefore she deserves to go to hell."?

Or is there unanimous agreement that sometimes events in life terrify or overwhelm people to a degree that at some point, running off that cliff probably seems the most palatable option from a small basket of horrors they have to select something from?

In the case of the girl who ran off that cliff edge, people might point to the fact that Western law allows a person to use whatever force (fatal or not) is necessary to prevent a rape from occurring. Manupulate that rule to decide that it is in fact okay to run off a cliff and kill yourself rather than face a group of rapists.

Or the terror and distress of a potential rape victim might be sanctioned as severe and understandable enough to justify such a desperate action. Two impossible options. No time to think....just run away from whatever it is that's terrifying you more than death itself can.

In other cases, where the elements of immediate risk/no time to think are missing, it's harder for people to understand the feelings that push a person into suicidal ideation. What people can't understand, they they tend to be far less forgiving of. If a human being can't understand and won't forgive something, it's doubtful they'll permit whatever notion they have of an all-knowing Deity to understand or forgive it either.

[Love Hurts]

Originally Posted by Admiral Thrawn

Other thoughts I have is that, say for example, someone decides to commit suicide in jail because he just got gang raped and beaten up badly and the guards rather than helping out are laughing and he cant get protective custody. His crime? Just torching a garbage can for fun with some friends and is a teenage - but ends up in that hell-hole. Than rather than get raped and beaten to death again, he kills himself.

Now he is in hell for all eternity with a different kind of torment?

I'm sure other people are experiencing some sort of hell on earth where suicide seems to be the only way out or are praying for God to kill them.

The Bible says that Lazarus went to Abraham's Bosom (or Paradise) because he had a hard life, while the rich man had a nice life and showed no compassion for Lazarus, and ended up in hell. What's interesting is there is no strict theological doctrine that says, Lazarus went to the right place because He believed in Jesus while the rich man did not -- they just contrasted the quality of their lives, sort of implying some sort of universal justice.

But the concept still is that people who commit suicide end up in hell - and I find that concept hard to swallow, especially if a suicide is driven by a scenerio like I illusrated above or if someone really had such a bad life.

Take for example a slave in the past who may have been cruelly beaten and killed by a master, but may only have known his own native religion (in fact slave owners deliberately frustrated evangelist efforts to convert their slaves because they thought if they received Christ, they'll have something inside them they cant control). Again -- we all know those masters rightfully deserve to end up in hell - but the slaves -- technically they did not know Jesus (as their masters impeded evangelistic efforts) so therefore they go to a different eternal hell after living a literal life of hell?

So, in a purely academic sence, it would seem that people who really have a very bad life may be safe with Jesus, even if they are not technically saved, just like infants and children and mentally retarded are -- I would like to see what other people think about this?

God Winked

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


There was a time when God pardoned the sins of the ignorant. Since the cross He demands all to repent [ Acts 17:30.


The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
(Ps 145.8f)

He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity. (Ps 98.9)

And none will say ‘not fair' with God's judgment... none will argue their situation is unfair.
He said He judges with equity.

I also like to believe that if only one man walked the face of the earth…
In his own heart he would find God or he would find Satan.

God is the reader of the hearts.
He knows a black heart and a righteous heart.
Men can fool men but men cannot fool God.

Equity.

[Yakri]

I'm not sure this is exactly an answer to this thread.

However, assuming that god is the all-good all-forgiving being most religions proclaim him to be, then i figure I'm set. if nothing exists after death, tough luck i guess. and if god is evil and only allows people who believe in him into the promised land or some such non-sense then I don't want in anyway. So I think I have all the bases covered in the event of my untimely death, now all i have to do is avoid going on any killing sprees, just encase.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Love_Hurts,

The judgement of God appears to occur at different intervals.

I mean, first of all you have the Great White Throne Judgement for non-believers and the wicked dead that occurs 1000 years after the start of the Millinian Kingdom.

Then you have the judgement seat of Christ where I believers, and I suppose people who are safe with Christ go to, which occurs just after the Rapture and perhaps at the beginning of the Millenium Kingdom.

But my question is hell varies from the lake of fire, because the lake of fire is the ultimate desination of the wicked dead, while hell is a holding place for the wicked dead awaiting the white throne judgement. So, you are not actually officially 'judged' before going to heaven or hell.

It's sort of like being in jail, but awaiting trial while being in jail since you cant get bail.

So, for people in hell who are awaiting the White Throne Judgement - how do they get judged before they end up where they end up. Or is it as some people say -- that the demons scavange the earth to find human spirits from their dead body counter parts -- and if they are not miracolously covered with the blood of Jesus, they will chain those souls and drag them into hell because they have the legal right to do so since they are not covered by the blood of Jesus. The only way a soul can be covered by the blood of Jesus is to accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus for their sins.

However, if one doesn't properly hear the Gospel and receive Jesus into their heart, and receive the atoning sacrifice and ressurection, they technically cant be covered in the blood of Jesus and must go to hell.

Given the actual judgements aren't going to take place until a very long time - how would you account for all of this? Or, would this imply there are other ways to heaven, that given an equitably judging God, that some people whose had it really rought, just wont end up being held in hell -- but may end up somewhere else? But if they don't know Christ, where exactly would they be?

Remember, if we believe God judges equitably - what does that mean? Where does Christ come into the equation there? Does that subscribe to the belief that if you are a good person, God will weight the good deeds over the bad to see if you can make it rather than the atoning sacrifice? Can these two concepts be reconciled?

[Admiral Thrawn]

I take what Love_Hurts is saying is God doesn't have any cracks in the system. That much I understand and it answers the question directly with the verses quoted.

The other things I've posted is just for speculation -- entertain it if you wish.
Thanks Love_Hurts for the Bible verses you quoted.

[Love Hurts]

Originally Posted by Admiral Thrawn

Love_Hurts,

The judgement of God appears to occur at different intervals.

I mean, first of all you have the Great White Throne Judgement for non-believers and the wicked dead that occurs 1000 years after the start of the Millinian Kingdom.

Then you have the judgement seat of Christ where I believers, and I suppose people who are safe with Christ go to, which occurs just after the Rapture and perhaps at the beginning of the Millenium Kingdom.

But my question is hell varies from the lake of fire, because the lake of fire is the ultimate desination of the wicked dead, while hell is a holding place for the wicked dead awaiting the white throne judgement. So, you are not actually officially 'judged' before going to heaven or hell.

It's sort of like being in jail, but awaiting trial while being in jail since you cant get bail.

So, for people in hell who are awaiting the White Throne Judgement - how do they get judged before they end up where they end up. Or is it as some people say -- that the demons scavange the earth to find human spirits from their dead body counter parts -- and if they are not miracolously covered with the blood of Jesus, they will chain those souls and drag them into hell because they have the legal right to do so since they are not covered by the blood of Jesus. The only way a soul can be covered by the blood of Jesus is to accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus for their sins.

However, if one doesn't properly hear the Gospel and receive Jesus into their heart, and receive the atoning sacrifice and ressurection, they technically cant be covered in the blood of Jesus and must go to hell.

Given the actual judgements aren't going to take place until a very long time - how would you account for all of this? Or, would this imply there are other ways to heaven, that given an equitably judging God, that some people whose had it really rought, just wont end up being held in hell -- but may end up somewhere else? But if they don't know Christ, where exactly would they be?

Remember, if we believe God judges equitably - what does that mean? Where does Christ come into the equation there? Does that subscribe to the belief that if you are a good person, God will weight the good deeds over the bad to see if you can make it rather than the atoning sacrifice? Can these two concepts be reconciled?

Admiral,

Saved we are marked by our Father in Heaven. We must have some mark on us that angels and demons can see.

2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Satan emulates God…
The beast wants to mark his followers; mark of the beast.
I believe Heaven holds the Saints until Judgment of the Church.
Rev 4:1 Rapture then judgment.

II COR. 5:10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I COR: 315 15 If any man's *Work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. LOSS OF REWARDS...
SAVED BY THE SKIN OF ONES TEETH...Praise Jesus!

-We know Hell has degrees of punishment.

Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

ROMANS2:5 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

-And that it’s a holding jail.

Rev.20:13; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

In the holding jail, this is Satans domain; still we can imagine there must be some agreement between God and Satan that even in the holding jail an individual should not be tortured more than the sins would merit.

Perhaps Satan knows a black heart just as God judges us by our hearts.
Perhaps Satan has a black book with a list of names of his followers and just how hard they worked for him?

[God has the Lambs book of Life… Satan emulates God.]

[I listened to ‘Bill Wiese 23 min in hell’ experience. He said there are degrees of punishment in hell… and he witnessed it. ]

Sadly these [holding jail ]individuals in hell will actually have their tormentation stop briefly to be presented before the Lord in all His Glory…

[Imagining this scene has got to be difficult for these souls … they had denounced Christ and now here they are before Him] …only to be sentenced for eternity and right back to hell and torture.

Sad thoughts... check out Bill Wiese.

[kdark]

Suicide is something that has vastly different connotations depending on what culture you are in.

In older Japanese military culture, it was expected for a warrior to commit suicide when he was defeated in battle, because he couldn't stand the shame of defeat. This was why their were so many atrocities committed in the Pacific campaign in World War II because the the Japanese soldiers expected the American soldiers to either go out in a blaze of glory, or kill themselves when they were defeated. The Japenese didn't expect them to surrender and accept their fate as a prisoner.

As far as the woman jumping off the cliff to avoid rape, it seems odd to me that she would be sent to hell for that. What if she didn't see the cliff because it was night time?

What if she saw it, tried to stop herself, but couldn't? Is God going to punish her with eternal damnation because she hesitated to stop because she had the fleeting notion that a quick death by falling off a cliff was more desireable than being gang raped, and possibly killed later by the rapists anyways?

It's not fair in my mind that because she was put into a situation that occurs to one in every billion of people, a cliff or gang rape, she goes to hell because she made the wrong decision. So many people go their entire lives without ever having to contemplate a decision of that magnitude, in that quick of a timeframe, and go to hell because of a "No Suicide" policy for getting into heaven.