[barefoot880]

I'd like christians to tell me why the concept of blasphemy even exists? It seems to me that blasphemy is a victimless crime.

I mean why do many christians think they can decide on God's behalf what He is offended by? They don't seem to trust God to decide for himself whether or not to be offended and take care of the issue Himself.

So why do many christians feel the need to get offended on God's behalf like when someone makes fun of God?

I guess I'm asking christians is does God have a sense of humor or not? There have been some christians who told me I'm going to burn in hell for telling jokes about God.

It's rather arrogant and self righteous for someone to think that a mere creature has the power to offend the creator of the universe when the creator has a bigger fish of problems to deal with not just in our galaxy but other galaxies out there.

Do you honestly think God has time to be concerned that someone is making fun of Him on planet earth? If God does not have a sense of humor then why would I want to worship Him? He sounds like a bully.

I take it as a threat when christians tell me I'm going to burn in hell for mocking their faith. Threatening someone with hellfire and damnation should be constituted as a hate crime because many have no idea the psychological trauma this kind of threat can have on people.

I consider myself to be an agnostic. In other words I don't know if God exists. If He does exist and if He does get offended that I make jokes about Him and mock the cross then I want Him to tell me Himself. I don't care what some self righteous preacher has to say on God's behalf.

So christians please explain why your God would take it so personally that He would want to throw me in hell just because I like to make fun of Him? How could a loving God take mocking so personally?

And if God is so offended by my calling Him foul names then why doesn't He kill me right now? Why write down all the words I'm saying and wait until I die of old age to pour out His vengenace?

[sigma]

We're all atheists to god, some of us just take it one god further

I consider myself an "Agnostic Atheist". I can't disprove anything either way. I cannot say, with absolute certainty that there is no god, just as no believer of ANY religion, can tell me absolute certainty that there is a god. There is no absolute certainty when it comes to god, I don't think some believers understand that sometimes.

Sometimes it bothers me actually. If infact there is a god (whichever religion that may be) wouldn't this "divine creator" want people to believe in them? Why not give concrete evidence of your existence? I don't' consider pretty flowers, taste, love or anything sort as concrete proof of the existence of god. I think far to often, people attach their lack of knowledge of a subject with an all-mighty creator. Just because we can't explain it RIGHT NOW, doesn't mean it could only be created by a god. I mentioned this in a previous thread. 1000's of years ago, you were considered crazy if you didn't' believe the chariot sun god took the sun up into the sky every morning. We obviously know better now. As we progress we will find out more and more about our origins. I don't think we will ever get to a point of know exactly how we were created.

I don't discount the idea of a god, but if there is infact a god, why not show yourself? Why such wavering evidence of your existence? Im not willing to dedicate my life to following something that im not sure about, and I can't see myself being sure about something unless I have GOOD evidence to support that. To be honest there are times when I think about it, and wouldn't mind be apart of a faith, but there isn't one that I think is right, even thought at times I may want there to be. Why not give us concrete or absolute proof of your existence. I've looked at this at a strictly numbers perspective. There are over 3000+ religions, with even many more denominations of a certain faith (ie many different aspects of Christianity) which dont' agree with each other, so there are more than just 3000. Assuming that every religion has an equal chance of being "right" (isn't that that the point of joining a faith, because you believe that faith is the correct one?) then your chances of being right are VERY small. Not only this, but if you're a strict follower of your faith, and it turns out to be the incorrect one, what happens to you?

I wouldn't' worry to much about blasphemy and what others have to think about your faith. We will all find out what really happens when our time comes, for now, enjoy your life and don't let others bring you down.

[SeraBella]

If you're not Christian, I'm not real sure why all of this matters? Why would you care if you offend someone you don't believe in? Do you still try to act nice to avoid Santa's naughty list?

It's a really long post that sounds like no response will be a "correct" answer in your mind.

[witabix]

Originally Posted by barefoot880

I'd like christians to tell me why the concept of blasphemy even exists? It seems to me that blasphemy is a victimless crime.

I mean why do many christians think they can decide on God's behalf what He is offended by? They don't seem to trust God to decide for himself whether or not to be offended and take care of the issue Himself.

So why do many christians feel the need to get offended on God's behalf like when someone makes fun of God?

I guess I'm asking christians is does God have a sense of humor or not? There have been some christians who told me I'm going to burn in hell for telling jokes about God.

It's rather arrogant and self righteous for someone to think that a mere creature has the power to offend the creator of the universe when the creator has a bigger fish of problems to deal with not just in our galaxy but other galaxies out there.

Do you honestly think God has time to be concerned that someone is making fun of Him on planet earth? If God does not have a sense of humor then why would I want to worship Him? He sounds like a bully.

I take it as a threat when christians tell me I'm going to burn in hell for mocking their faith. Threatening someone with hellfire and damnation should be constituted as a hate crime because many have no idea the psychological trauma this kind of threat can have on people.

I consider myself to be an agnostic. In other words I don't know if God exists. If He does exist and if He does get offended that I make jokes about Him and mock the cross then I want Him to tell me Himself. I don't care what some self righteous preacher has to say on God's behalf.

So christians please explain why your God would take it so personally that He would want to throw me in hell just because I like to make fun of Him? How could a loving God take mocking so personally?

And if God is so offended by my calling Him foul names then why doesn't He kill me right now? Why write down all the words I'm saying and wait until I die of old age to pour out His vengenace?

I am not a religious minded person, I do not believe in god. That said I want to point out that Christians have no monopoly on blasphemy.

Many countries have blasphemy laws, and also freedom of speech laws. They do sometimes appear to conflict. It is however a society's choice to implement the laws that they deem are good.

I do not believe, however I defend the right of those that choose to believe, and their right to believe in whatever deity/deities they wish to. Their freedom to do so also enshrines their freedom to worship without my consent, or mockery.

I fail to see the point in mocking something that is not there, for me.

As for why people get offended? That is not so difficult to see, if someone truly believes in something it is important to them.

Not all christians are good or tolerant people, not all people are good or tolerant people.

I think it is incumbent on us all to make our global society more accepting of the differences between us. I have met many wonderful people of all faiths, Islam, Hindu, Jew, Christian, et al. All those people and their religions taught me something about life.

I respected their belief and they respected my views.

[Moose]

It seems to me that blasphemy is a victimless crime.

There sure is a victim. The blasphemer. There are consequences for anything you/we do negatively.

I mean why do many christians think they can decide on God's behalf what He is offended by?

It's not that we're acting on God's "behalf", we are obeying what He told us to do according to His word. (i.e. Scripture).

They don't seem to trust God to decide for himself whether or not to be offended and take care of the issue Himself.

The problem is, we do know He'll take care of the problem Himself, and the harm the, "blasphemer" is causing him or herself. It's like watching someone slowly cutting their wrists open while they laugh at themselves.

I take it as a threat when christians tell me I'm going to burn in hell for mocking their faith. Threatening someone with hellfire and damnation should be constituted as a hate crime because many have no idea the psychological trauma this kind of threat can have on people.

The only way you'll burn in hell is by denying Christ as your Saviour. Christ is the only way to be saved. If you're saved, you could make fun of God all you want. The fact is, if you're truly saved, you won't want to. You'd realize what He gave up for you and you'd be showing alot more respect for His Sacrifice.

And if God is so offended by my calling Him foul names then why doesn't He kill me right now? Why write down all the words I'm saying and wait until I die of old age to pour out His vengenace?

Because it's His desire that all will be be saved. He'll be patient with you even to the point of your death. We get offended because anyone who makes fun of a being who literally sacrificed His life so that we may live is pretty rude in our opinion.

[barefoot880]

Originally Posted by witabix

I am not a religious minded person, I do not believe in god. That said I want to point out that Christians have no monopoly on blasphemy.

Many countries have blasphemy laws, and also freedom of speech laws. They do sometimes appear to conflict. It is however a society's choice to implement the laws that they deem are good.

I do not believe, however I defend the right of those that choose to believe, and their right to believe in whatever deity/deities they wish to. Their freedom to do so also enshrines their freedom to worship without my consent, or mockery.

I fail to see the point in mocking something that is not there, for me.

As for why people get offended? That is not so difficult to see, if someone truly believes in something it is important to them.

Not all christians are good or tolerant people, not all people are good or tolerant people.

I think it is incumbent on us all to make our global society more accepting of the differences between us. I have met many wonderful people of all faiths, Islam, Hindu, Jew, Christian, et al. All those people and their religions taught me something about life.

I respected their belief and they respected my views.

I respect the rights of others to believe whatever they want as long as they don't want me to believe what they believe. I don't respect christians who go door-door trying to convert people.

Now if christians kept their beliefs to themselves I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't have a problem with a christian's zeal to live like the amish and live such a restricted lifestyle denying all pleasures as long as they would not try to impose their morality on me.

But some dedicated christian politicans are taking steps to christianize america and take away my right to be free from religious influence. Nobody has the right to force others to conform to unprovable beliefs.

So it's what christians want to do with their beliefs and how that will effect the rest of society is what I don't respect. It's only a matter of time before christians will push for the cross to be shown on the american flag!

I"m sure christians would be outraged if I went around proselytizing my agnostic beliefs. How would christians feel if I went door-door trying to convert people to agnosticism? How would they feel if I went passing out literature?

If christians would find that distubring then they should also leave people alone to believe whatever they want. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Isn't that the summary of what Jesus taught anyway?

If you don't want people to convert you away from christianity then don't convert others to your religion.

[Moose]

If christians would find that distubring then they should also leave people alone to believe whatever they want. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Isn't that the summary of what Jesus taught anyway?

Oh, I see.....it's ok if Christians leave you alone and allow you to believe what you want.....but it's ok for you to poke fun at God?

So would it be ok for us to make fun of you making fun of God? Or would you rather us just be offended?

[witabix]

Originally Posted by barefoot880

I respect the rights of others to believe whatever they want as long as they don't want me to believe what they believe. I don't respect christians who go door-door trying to convert people.

Now if christians kept their beliefs to themselves I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't have a problem with a christian's zeal to live like the amish and live such a restricted lifestyle denying all pleasures as long as they would not try to impose their morality on me.
But some dedicated christian politicans are taking steps to christianize america and take away my right to be free from religious influence. Nobody has the right to force others to conform to unprovable beliefs.

So it's what christians want to do with their beliefs and how that will effect the rest of society is what I don't respect. It's only a matter of time before christians will push for the cross to be shown on the american flag!

I"m sure christians would be outraged if I went around proselytizing my agnostic beliefs. How would christians feel if I went door-door trying to convert people to agnosticism? How would they feel if I went passing out literature?

If christians would find that distubring then they should also leave people alone to believe whatever they want. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Isn't that the summary of what Jesus taught anyway?

If you don't want people to convert you away from christianity then don't convert others to your religion.

Barefoot, evangelists are by their nature evangelising.

Now I do not want the Religious people on LS to be offended by this next point

Do you get annoyed at people trying to sell things that are patently bad for you, certain brown fizzy drinks, tobacco, alcohol &c. They do not knock on your door, they are in your house, uninvited on your tv. Did you request this?

How much harm does a man who wants (in his honest opinion) to save your soul? Does Moose's post offend you? He is not telling you and I what to believe, he is telling us what he believes. I think that is cool, I am pleased to know what Moose believes in. His belief does not annoy or threaten me, I am sure that he is a man who would not do me any harm. He may think I am going to hell for my denial of God but thats ok too, its his belief and as I said before, I defend his right to hold his belief.

Dedicated christian politicians will only succeed if there are sufficient people to vote for it, in the US anyway, you can vote against it.

And his last post makes a good point too, what gives you the right to mock his God? I do not believe, but it is unacceptable to mock another persons belief system, their God, their family, these things are not open to attack from others.

[Moose]

witabix,

I whole-heartedly wish more non-believers showed the respect and kindness you've just demonstrated in your last post......

Just wanted to say thanks!

[witabix]

Thats my pleasure Moose, just because I am a non-believer does not mean that I cannot read scriptures and listen to the message in religion, I don't find it necessary to believe in God to understand what is right and what is wrong.

Peace to you.

[Moai]

Originally Posted by witabix

And his last post makes a good point too, what gives you the right to mock his God?

Freedom of Speech for one thing.

Do all beliefs, no matter how outlandish deserve the same protection? If a grown man ardently believes in Santa, are we all to hold our tongue out of "respect"?

Why does god-belief get a free pass, but not every other form of opinion known to man? What is so special about it. Not only is there no evidence for any sort of god-belief, those who hold these beliefs seem to be all-fired certain about things they can have no idea about.

Not only that, but Moose's belief system itself mocks the god-belief of others. As he himself wrote, Christ is the only way to Heaven. Every other religious person on the planet who is not a Christian is not only wasting their time, they are actually HARMING themselves. The example he gave regarding blasphemy applies exactly the same "it is like watching someone slitting their wrists and laughing". Isn't disbelief the harshest form of mocking? Doesn't any adherent of any religion by definition mock all the others?

If a Christian were to walk around Afghanistan preaching the Gospel, he would get his head cut off. Such is the punishment for blasphemy of Allah and the Holy Quran. Publish a cartoon that depicts Mohammad and you'll get stabbed to death with a kitchen knife. Are these beliefs not worthy of being denounced--if not openly mocked?

That said, it is important to distinguish between the belief and the believer. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, but no belief should be beyond criticism and a jibe here and there.

I do not believe, but it is unacceptable to mock another persons belief system, their God, their family, these things are not open to attack from others.

Well, they obviously are, or it would not be possible to mock them. Moreover, Jesus was mocked while on the Cross, so there is a long tradition of Christ-mocking, from the very start. Is it fair that the people who watched it happen get to mock, but 2,000 years later we don't?

[witabix]

Moai, if a grown man believes in Santa why would you wish to mock him,or Santa for that matter?

What is your payback for your mockery?

I have met many people of differing religions, their level of intolerance/tolerance towards other religions has ranged from mild to none. I have never had anyone who is a believer say that I will rot in hell, or that other people will. Remember, these are the people I have met, which is an infinitesmally small sample of the world.

However Moose is under no illusions as to my belief system, and I have none about his.

He did not threaten me with eternal damnation. He may think that is what will happen to me, but I see no point in mocking his God, not because I fear retribution, but because I recognise he is my equal, as are you and everyone else.

My system is no more or less valid than anyone elses.

The various scriptures of the main religions are open to interpretations, some use their interpretations to deny the validity of other religions. I prefer to see them as a good social construct in some areas.

Moslems do not view Christians as their enemy, and they do not cut off the heads of Christians. Salahuedin didn't 400 years ago, and they still don't now.

As for Moose's beliefs mocking other religions, I just don't see that. He believes he is right, other religions believe they are right. I don't even know what religion Moose is from, but I doubt (and hope) that his 'preacher' (Sorry Moose, don't know what word to use there) does not stand up in front of their congregation and pour hatred about Moslems, Jews, Sikhs &c

I didn't see that in his post, or recall in from past ones.

As for Jesus being mocked on the cross underpinning a tradition of Christ-Mockery, would you want to mock a man dying in such conditions? I wouldn't. Why mock it now? Why mock people who thought that was a turning point in man's history? Why mock Allah? Buddha? Ganesh? Yahweh?

Hitler didn't start the long tradition of anti-semitism but he certainly thought it was ok to do what he did, I wonder why he did that? I have no understanding of how such things happen.

I have never felt the need to mock anyone else's belief. I cannot think of a reason why I would want to.

Edit: Freedom of Speech comes with a responsibility to be civil and respectful as far as I am concerned.

[bentnotbroken]

Originally Posted by barefoot880

I respect the rights of others to believe whatever they want as long as they don't want me to believe what they believe. I don't respect christians who go door-door trying to convert people.

Now if christians kept their beliefs to themselves I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't have a problem with a christian's zeal to live like the amish and live such a restricted lifestyle denying all pleasures as long as they would not try to impose their morality on me.

But some dedicated christian politicans are taking steps to christianize america and take away my right to be free from religious influence. Nobody has the right to force others to conform to unprovable beliefs.

So it's what christians want to do with their beliefs and how that will effect the rest of society is what I don't respect. It's only a matter of time before christians will push for the cross to be shown on the american flag!

I"m sure christians would be outraged if I went around proselytizing my agnostic beliefs. How would christians feel if I went door-door trying to convert people to agnosticism? How would they feel if I went passing out literature?

If christians would find that distubring then they should also leave people alone to believe whatever they want. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Isn't that the summary of what Jesus taught anyway?

If you don't want people to convert you away from christianity then don't convert others to your religion.

As a Christian I can't keep my beliefs to myself. I don't shove anything down anyone's throat(too many nuts to go door to door), but my beliefs are a part of me, and they come out in my words and my actions. I give God the glory he deserves, I am here because of him. NOT under my own steam, power or planning. And since I am not a flag waver, I honestly don't care if they put a cross on it or not. It won't change me,what I believe, or what I teach my children. I only pledge alligiance to God, not a piece of cloth or a corrupt group of leaders. God is my leader and the only one I want to please. The good thing about having people knocking on YOUR door, is you don't have to open it.

[Lovelybird]

I cannot speak for others. I got saved by God's grace because two Christian sisters care enough one day knocked my door, I believed that was God's plan. I still think of them from time to time, thank them for their doing, so now I can have this amazing relationship with God who bring freedom, his love and widsoms to me, who answers my prayers He is amazing loving Father

Shoving down to throat is a form of lack of respect. But spreading good news isn't so. you speak, and leave it at that, accept or not depend on the person who listen the good news. It is a process of changing human's heart, only God knows which day they will come to Lord, we don't.

[barefoot880]

Originally Posted by Moose

witabix,

I whole-heartedly wish more non-believers showed the respect and kindness you've just demonstrated in your last post......

Just wanted to say thanks!

Why do you care whether or not us non-believers show more respect and kindness towards christians? According to your belief system being kind and respectful won't get me to heaven so why should I bother trying? I might as well barge into a baptist church on sunday morning and rudely interrupt the service. I might as well steal bibles from the church and burn them!

Or am I missing something here? Am I guaranteed an entrance into heaven if I repent of my rudeness and listen respectfully and attentively to christians while I still keep my unbelief?

I thought that some sects of christianity teach that even nice people who mind their own business and don't hurt anybody will still go to hell.