OK, I'm opening up a whole can of worms here, and perhaps I shall be pushing a few buttons, rattling a few cages and getting a few folk to jump out of their prams.... but I think it's worth thinking about...
First of all, let me immediately state that I have two children, both girls; one is 25 the youngest, 16.
I became pregnant about 3 months after I got married, and doted on my first child. She was gentle, quiet, sweet, well-behaved and a real gem, a credit to both her father and me. She was bright, intelligent, caring, conscientious and very popular with lots of friends at both her primary and secondary school.
Through hormonal difficulties, i didn't have my second until the first child was 7 years of age. This didn't worry me, as there are 7 years between me and my younger brother, and my ex- is 7 years younger than his sister, so the gap was never an issue.
But it did mean that we had to put Life - plans, desires, luxuries - on hold.
And the second child was as different to the first as you could imagine - a real problem at night (no unbroken sleep for 3 years!) wilful, obstinate, bad-tempered, occasionally spiteful, selfish and a right little madam - but bright as a button,m and very, very funny!
The girls grew up, and the eldest mentored the youngest as best she could, given the different temperaments... she taught her many things, creating an independent strong personality... we three females forged an extraordinarily strong bond of friendship and unity. Both girls told me on more than one occasion, that I was their best friend, and that their friends in turn, all told them that hey wished they had ' a mum like yours'...! we did everything together, and at times, my ex, the poor chap, must have felt decidedly out of the picture, so chummy were we!
In actual fact, earlier in my second child's life, he found it very difficult to bond with her, resented her, and in fact 'rejected' her emotionally for a considerable period of time. His bond with the eldest, conversely, was unshakable, and unbreakable....
In 1999, when they were aged 16 and 8, we moved, as a family unit, to France, with the intention of becoming permanent residents.
But nothing ever goes quite to plan....
in 2002, my ex-and I separated, and because w had experienced such an even-tempered and united relationship, nobody had a clue this would happen, and it came as a great shock to many.
My daughters however, took the (personally disappointing) decision to 'side' with their father.
I have neither seen nor spoken to them, with any relevance or for any reasonable period of time, since he and I split up. Their attitude towards me is cursory, and they have chosen to currently turn their backs on me, and treat me as an acquaintance, rather than a mother.
I am not bitter, I am not angry, and I hold a fervent wish in my heart that in time, this attitude will soften, and that they will once again, decide to actively include me in their lives.
But, sad as it is, unimaginable and unthinkable in comparison to how we first were, I can’t keep beating myself up about it, or losing sleep. I bear responsibility for events as they unfolded, but I am not to blame.
There’s a difference….
And so, in a very long, and roundabout way, this brings me to the purpose of this thread:
In this day and age, with the Economy being as fragile as it is, and with the crisis of Global Warming being one everyone’s lips and a major issue for discussion amongst the World’s Political powers, with the current global population being as out of control as it seems to be, and with orphanages bursting at the seams…
With the current issue of ‘the attitude’ of the younger generation, the difficulties faced in bringing children up and educating them, and the costs associated with having a family, given that (as my own story so graphically illustrates) there are NO guarantees – NONE - of having a happy, well-adjusted and ideal family –
I personally am now of the opinion that having a baby nowadays, is reprehensibly irresponsible.
Financially, ecologically, socially, environmentally and ethically irresponsible.
But given that you might be a parent, or that you might be planning to have a child – Tell me this:
WHY, exactly would you WANT to have a baby….?
What logical, sound, acceptable reason could you possibly have for wanting one?
The thing is, I have actually asked people this question, and not one person, not a one – has been able to give me an acceptable answer. (‘Acceptable’, according to the criteria I outlined above….)
I have received answers such as:
“I dunno really, it just seemed the right thing to do….”
“Because I guess my family is expecting it….”
“My/our/his/her parents can’t wait to be grandparents….”
“Because it’s selfish NOT to….” (WTF….?!)
“Because it’s our God-Given Right to have Children….”
This last one is cruddo, folks…. It’s your God-given right (if you ascribe to Christianity, or a Holy Calling of any kind) to try to conceive a child, but remember that, like kittens, they don’t stay small for long…. And it’s not your right to have one…
They need constant 24-hour care, feeding, clothing, buying presents for, schooling, Uniforms, holidays, medical bills (dental braces? Glasses?) and by the time they hit 18, they will have probably cost you slightly over a quarter of a million pounds….. and that’s just one…..
And don’t forget, that there is NO guarantee that the child you fervently ‘wish’ for will be normal and not handicapped. Hey, it happens…I know three families with handicapped children, and whilst they are a joy to their parents, they’re also hard work. And one mum I know was deserted by her husband a year after the child was born, because he couldn’t bear the pressure, responsibility or burden of it. He wrote her a letter saying that the boy ‘cramped his style’….
I’m sure this is rare, and I’m not for one moment suggesting every man would do this, of course not…. But it’s hard work…
Even having a normal, well-adjusted child is massive, and I really don’t think an awful lot of couples embarking on parenthood, are truly aware of what’s involved. Let’s face it, if the job of parenting were advertised in the paper, nobody would volunteer for such a task – especially unpaid!
“wanted: parent to care for growing child, to feed it, buy formula milk, nappies and food, and basically devote the next 18 years, totally devoted to feeding, clothing, housing, protecting, and educating same. No holidays. No perks, no pay, no time off. Must be able to drive, think of three things at once, demonstrate infinite patience, answer awkward questions, guide, counsel and advise. Must have solid well-grounded principles. GSOH absolutely vital to prevent loss of sanity. Apply in writing to ‘Thanklesstask.com’….”
And young teen unmarried mothers….Let’s not even GO there!!
The thing is, if you wish to adopt, the hoops you have to jump through are extraordinary. The vetting procedure is lengthy, intrusive and mind-bogglingly officious…. And that goes for pets, as well, if you go to a rescue centre…
So why don’t Governments put in the same stringent precautions for people wishing to create a new and unique life on their own…?
It’s crazy….
So….
Why do you want to have children?
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"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts; with our thoughts, we make the world."
I'm sure you will get many interesting answers here.
Your post was thoughtful and provacative and I appreciate your honesty.
For many of the reasons you posted above, I myself have chosen NOT to have children. I enjoy my career and enjoy working with adults and I think there are enough damaged and broken families in this society that my services will be needed for a very long long time.
I think God made some of us childless for a reason -- our purpose lies elsewhere. I wish more people would listen to their hearts rather than fall prey to societal pressures to reproduce.
I'm a guy but I would like to have kids. Just not now. I want my kids to be financially well off and I want to give them the world and not have them inherit the garbage my past generation had.
I think it take time , maturity and a good partner to raise great children.
Who knows what might happen.
You cant always be chasing after the almighty dollar miss mars. You shouldnt be so selfhish children are a great joy, Our progeny are our future we should be happy to be able to pass that on.
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This gun means you are the weak and I am the tyranny of evil men, but I'm trying, I'm trying real hard to be the sheppard...
I have asked a number of people about having children. The answer I get 90 percent of the time is almost word for word: "I love my children more than anything else in the world...but if I had it to do all over again I don't think I would have them." Again, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE MAJORITY SAY.
I think the instinct to reproduce trumps all rational good sense. Kids are a major responsibility for which you get no immediate return and, at the end of the day, there are no guarantees they will have much to do with you later on. There are cases where children have murdered their parents.
It's been my experience that people who are from happy and generally healthy, functional families want children to replicate their earlier lifestyle.
With all that said, I can think of no good reason to have them. Perhaps subconsciously many of us are programmed to "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth."
You have them to love and care for them, as your gift to them.
And it is incredibly hard. If you do it to please yourself, you're in for a world of disappointment.
And you're right...I DO love both my girls, unconditionally and wholeheartedly. My door will always be open to them, and I do desire a happy resolution to the situation. But I will not put my life on hold for them.
And I can't think of anyone conscientious parent who does it to please themselves.... But I think it's the hardest job in the world....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrome barracuda
You shouldnt be so selfhish children are a great joy, Our progeny are our future we should be happy to be able to pass that on.
Pardon...? Name me one positive and constructive unselfish reason for having children...?! Our progeny are our destruction. We'll need more housing, leading to less free, green land, transportation, leading to more congestion and everything more, bigger cars entails... the list is endless.... having more children is counter-productive.
Agreed. They will suck the very marrow out of your bones if you let them. That is what makes it the hardest job, knowing where to draw the line re how much you can give. Each day and actually, every minute, you are drawing and redrawing that line. And you're balancing between guilt and emotional exhaustion most of the time.
In between, there are the beautiful emotional connections, the joy at seeing them grow and seeing them happy.
I think it is a biological sense, the idea of creating a mark on the world, a legacy, cultural as in an heir to take over the family business, religious to go forth and propagate. A historical yearning, a link to the past, present, and future. They also give us a sense of responsibility that we are now responsible for the future and not thinking of today, ourselves, or getting laid. We all know what happened the last time getting laid did?
Seriously, children are one of the joys of life, everyday is not the same day. Children have a natural curiousity and innocence that was lost as we grew up. yes they stink initially and smile while running toward you but they do clean themselves and will be potty trained; one of these days. Kids help us reconnect with our own past and our own childhood.
It is the parent child relationship that links the generations together. The link provides continuity from past generations to those present and the future.
Even being an uncle is hard. I fell asleep after a few hours with the them. When they took a nap, I took one with them!
Last edited by jerbear; 24th December 2007 at 2:48 AM.
What makes my situation all the weirder, is that because of the cost of external child care (it took up virtually every penny of my salary!) my husband and I decided that perhaps for a while, until the girls wer of reasonable school age, i would be a stay-at-home mum and bring them up. Obviously, because of the age gap, this period lasted longer than originally planned.... But at the time, as a practising Roman Catholic, I brought both my girls up in this faith, and schooled them in an RC dioscese school. I threw myself devotely into their schooling and upbringing, going as far as applying for, and being elected (by the other parents) to the post of a Parent School Governor - for two, 2-year terms running...so I really was actively involved and engrossed in their upbringing and education.
I forged what I believed was an unbreakably close bond with them both, in spite of the differences in their temperaments and characters - vive la difference! We did so much together, and spent all our time together... so I found it particularly gob-smacking that after such a life together, they would unitedly decide to close their minds and hearts to me.
I cannot either think or speak for them, so I cannot offer their reasons or justification for this attitude. That would be for them to expound, and I'm sure they feel they have sound basis for it. But I can't offer any conjecture, neither would I claim any right to do so....
This is why I would defy anyone to say,
"Oh, this couldn't possibly happen to us, we're such a close family....."
'It's a wonderful Life' is a glorious, sentimentally schmaltzy movie...I cry every time... but it's just a movie...you know?
Closeness counts for nothing if someone's heart just isn't in it.
Maybe they pushed you away so strongly because they were so attached to you. You hurt them (I don't know the details of your divorce, but I'm sure it hurt) and they loved you deeply. They had a huge amount of faith in you, and your part in the divorce has shaken that faith. I wouldn't see their current rejection as a sign of weak attachment to you or lack of closeness. It is the opposite.
What makes my situation all the weirder, is that because of the cost of external child care (it took up virtually every penny of my salary!) my husband and I decided that perhaps for a while, until the girls wer of reasonable school age, i would be a stay-at-home mum and bring them up. Obviously, because of the age gap, this period lasted longer than originally planned.... But at the time, as a practising Roman Catholic, I brought both my girls up in this faith, and schooled them in an RC dioscese school. I threw myself devotely into their schooling and upbringing, going as far as applying for, and being elected (by the other parents) to the post of a Parent School Governor - for two, 2-year terms running...so I really was actively involved and engrossed in their upbringing and education.
I forged what I believed was an unbreakably close bond with them both, in spite of the differences in their temperaments and characters - vive la difference! We did so much together, and spent all our time together... so I found it particularly gob-smacking that after such a life together, they would unitedly decide to close their minds and hearts to me.
I cannot either think or speak for them, so I cannot offer their reasons or justification for this attitude. That would be for them to expound, and I'm sure they feel they have sound basis for it. But I can't offer any conjecture, neither would I claim any right to do so....
This is why I would defy anyone to say,
"Oh, this couldn't possibly happen to us, we're such a close family....."
'It's a wonderful Life' is a glorious, sentimentally schmaltzy movie...I cry every time... but it's just a movie...you know?
Closeness counts for nothing if someone's heart just isn't in it.
Are they teenagers now? Some children get resentful of their parents when they are being helicopter parents.
It is one parents', and child's, worst feeling is when one let the other one down. You had expectations about them and they decided to be resentful and being children eventually fly out of the nest. The feeling of missed expectations, resentment, and empty nested; changes a parent's world. It makes them feel like something went wrong. the parents will get used to it and accept the new expectations and what their own kids bring to the new parent child relationship.
If you did what you did, in my opinion you did ok. Children and life has a way of redeeming the past.
I think it is a biological sense, the idea of creating a mark on the world, a legacy, cultural as in an heir to take over the family business, religious to go forth and propagate. A historical yearning, a link to the past, present, and future. They also give us a sense of responsibility that we are now responsible for the future and not thinking of today, ourselves, or getting laid.
Yes, but nobody ever gives this as a reason for actually wanting to have a child, and as I have said, in this day and age, there is far more irresponsibility in creating a life, than in resisting those five minutes of passionate temptation...
Cultural? nobody knows what their 'culture' is any more, so mixed are we in race, origin and provenance...
Family business....? This might have been true 200 years ago, but now? Gimme a break! I keep hearing senior people lamenting that their children DON'T want to follow in their business, so the business ends here, unless they find a buyer....Families are fractured by distance, different careers and travel. Families don't tend to live as close to one another as was once common. so that's a poor reason....
Religion...? yes, I grant you, the 'go forth' bit might be a factor...but I would suggest that the number of Roman Catholic women I know, who DO take contraception, vastly outnumbers those who don't... and according to the Pope, contraception is a no-no....so it goes to show how much 'religion' has an influence. And as for Moslem women...in some countries (namely India) women are having abortions to rid themselves of female babies.... for all manner of religious and cultural reasons of course....
And if we really want to be responsible for the future - Use a Condom!! Otherwise, there will be no future to be responsible for - unless we can find another planet to invade and over-populate!
Quote:
Seriously, children are one of the joys of life, everyday is not the same day. Children have a natural curiousity and innocence that was lost as we grew up. yes they stink initially and smile while running toward you but they do clean themselves and will be potty trained; one of these days. Kids help us reconnect with our own past and our own childhood.
It is the parent child relationship that links the generations together. The link provides continuity from past generations to those present and the future.
I'm sorry, but I find this to be a purely romanticised, pink-spectacled, emotional response, and it offers no logical justification for having a child, at all. I'm afraid I think it's sentimental clap-trap, and any parent will tell you that it's not uppermost in their logic or reasons, when they think of why they had kids....research has shown that unfortunately, the emotional satisfaction of having a child is seriously thrown out of kilter and outweighed by the emotional, financial and psychological stress created.
And if you're just an uncle, and you found it hard - well, I rest my case!
Last edited by Geishawhelk; 24th December 2007 at 3:06 AM.
Are they teenagers now? Some children get resentful of their parents when they are being helicopter parents.
25 and 17 respectively. 'Helicopter' parent? I don't understand..... what's that?
Quote:
It is one parents', and child's, worst feeling is when one let the other one down. You had expectations about them and they decided to be resentful and being children eventually fly out of the nest. The feeling of missed expectations, resentment, and empty nested; changes a parent's world. It makes them feel like something went wrong. the parents will get used to it and accept the new expectations and what their own kids bring to the new parent child relationship.
I don't think you have fully read my first post...
I pomise you, the only expectation I have ever had for both my girls is to be happy, and to be the best person they could be.
They haven't flown the nest. Far from it - the 25-year old still lives under the same roof as her dad - with her boyfriend!
I'm not sure where you're coming from on this, but if you're referring directly to what I have written, it's an inaccurate perception...
Quote:
If you did what you did, in my opinion you did ok. Children and life has a way of redeeming the past.
I don't seek redemption (although I do see your point) I just seek a happy outcome and future for them, whatever they decide. How do Children redeem the past, BTW?
I had to laugh...
I am about as far away from being a parent, thus described, as you could imagine!
I used to think there was something wrong with my maternal instincts, precisely because I wanted nothing more than to help them be independent and free-thinking... Whilst I actively involved myself in their formative lives, I nurtured their desires to go their own way, go against the flow and be radical and confrontational, when they needed to be!
They were never pushed, in a 'Queen of the Prom' way...
I had no transposed desires, dreams or ambitions for them, and frankly, whatever they did was ok with me...
I didn't even care when one of them expressed the opinion that she might be a lesbian or bi-sexual, because she found she had feelings for a particular girl friend... So what? I wouldn't mind in the slightest what my girls did - or do - providing they are happy, content and do no harm to themselves or others...What mattered to me then, and matters to me now, in fact....
OK, I'm opening up a whole can of worms here, and perhaps I shall be pushing a few buttons, rattling a few cages and getting a few folk to jump out of their prams.... but I think it's worth thinking about...
First of all, let me immediately state that I have two children, both girls; one is 25 the youngest, 16.
I became pregnant about 3 months after I got married, and doted on my first child. She was gentle, quiet, sweet, well-behaved and a real gem, a credit to both her father and me. She was bright, intelligent, caring, conscientious and very popular with lots of friends at both her primary and secondary school.
Through hormonal difficulties, i didn't have my second until the first child was 7 years of age. This didn't worry me, as there are 7 years between me and my younger brother, and my ex- is 7 years younger than his sister, so the gap was never an issue.
But it did mean that we had to put Life - plans, desires, luxuries - on hold.
And the second child was as different to the first as you could imagine - a real problem at night (no unbroken sleep for 3 years!) wilful, obstinate, bad-tempered, occasionally spiteful, selfish and a right little madam - but bright as a button,m and very, very funny!
The girls grew up, and the eldest mentored the youngest as best she could, given the different temperaments... she taught her many things, creating an independent strong personality... we three females forged an extraordinarily strong bond of friendship and unity. Both girls told me on more than one occasion, that I was their best friend, and that their friends in turn, all told them that hey wished they had ' a mum like yours'...! we did everything together, and at times, my ex, the poor chap, must have felt decidedly out of the picture, so chummy were we!
In actual fact, earlier in my second child's life, he found it very difficult to bond with her, resented her, and in fact 'rejected' her emotionally for a considerable period of time. His bond with the eldest, conversely, was unshakable, and unbreakable....
In 1999, when they were aged 16 and 8, we moved, as a family unit, to France, with the intention of becoming permanent residents.
But nothing ever goes quite to plan....
in 2002, my ex-and I separated, and because w had experienced such an even-tempered and united relationship, nobody had a clue this would happen, and it came as a great shock to many.
My daughters however, took the (personally disappointing) decision to 'side' with their father.
I have neither seen nor spoken to them, with any relevance or for any reasonable period of time, since he and I split up. Their attitude towards me is cursory, and they have chosen to currently turn their backs on me, and treat me as an acquaintance, rather than a mother.
I am not bitter, I am not angry, and I hold a fervent wish in my heart that in time, this attitude will soften, and that they will once again, decide to actively include me in their lives.
But, sad as it is, unimaginable and unthinkable in comparison to how we first were, I can’t keep beating myself up about it, or losing sleep. I bear responsibility for events as they unfolded, but I am not to blame.
There’s a difference….
And so, in a very long, and roundabout way, this brings me to the purpose of this thread:
In this day and age, with the Economy being as fragile as it is, and with the crisis of Global Warming being one everyone’s lips and a major issue for discussion amongst the World’s Political powers, with the current global population being as out of control as it seems to be, and with orphanages bursting at the seams…
With the current issue of ‘the attitude’ of the younger generation, the difficulties faced in bringing children up and educating them, and the costs associated with having a family, given that (as my own story so graphically illustrates) there are NO guarantees – NONE - of having a happy, well-adjusted and ideal family –
I personally am now of the opinion that having a baby nowadays, is reprehensibly irresponsible.
Financially, ecologically, socially, environmentally and ethically irresponsible.
But given that you might be a parent, or that you might be planning to have a child – Tell me this:
WHY, exactly would you WANT to have a baby….?
What logical, sound, acceptable reason could you possibly have for wanting one?
The thing is, I have actually asked people this question, and not one person, not a one – has been able to give me an acceptable answer. (‘Acceptable’, according to the criteria I outlined above….)
I have received answers such as:
“I dunno really, it just seemed the right thing to do….”
“Because I guess my family is expecting it….”
“My/our/his/her parents can’t wait to be grandparents….”
“Because it’s selfish NOT to….” (WTF….?!)
“Because it’s our God-Given Right to have Children….”
This last one is cruddo, folks…. It’s your God-given right (if you ascribe to Christianity, or a Holy Calling of any kind) to try to conceive a child, but remember that, like kittens, they don’t stay small for long…. And it’s not your right to have one…
They need constant 24-hour care, feeding, clothing, buying presents for, schooling, Uniforms, holidays, medical bills (dental braces? Glasses?) and by the time they hit 18, they will have probably cost you slightly over a quarter of a million pounds….. and that’s just one…..
And don’t forget, that there is NO guarantee that the child you fervently ‘wish’ for will be normal and not handicapped. Hey, it happens…I know three families with handicapped children, and whilst they are a joy to their parents, they’re also hard work. And one mum I know was deserted by her husband a year after the child was born, because he couldn’t bear the pressure, responsibility or burden of it. He wrote her a letter saying that the boy ‘cramped his style’….
I’m sure this is rare, and I’m not for one moment suggesting every man would do this, of course not…. But it’s hard work…
Even having a normal, well-adjusted child is massive, and I really don’t think an awful lot of couples embarking on parenthood, are truly aware of what’s involved. Let’s face it, if the job of parenting were advertised in the paper, nobody would volunteer for such a task – especially unpaid!
“wanted: parent to care for growing child, to feed it, buy formula milk, nappies and food, and basically devote the next 18 years, totally devoted to feeding, clothing, housing, protecting, and educating same. No holidays. No perks, no pay, no time off. Must be able to drive, think of three things at once, demonstrate infinite patience, answer awkward questions, guide, counsel and advise. Must have solid well-grounded principles. GSOH absolutely vital to prevent loss of sanity. Apply in writing to ‘Thanklesstask.com’….”
And young teen unmarried mothers….Let’s not even GO there!!
The thing is, if you wish to adopt, the hoops you have to jump through are extraordinary. The vetting procedure is lengthy, intrusive and mind-bogglingly officious…. And that goes for pets, as well, if you go to a rescue centre…
So why don’t Governments put in the same stringent precautions for people wishing to create a new and unique life on their own…?
It’s crazy….
So….
Why do you want to have children?
Why do you want to have children?
Well I have children ages 7,5 and 2! I had alway's wanted to be a mother from the time I was a little girl. My mom was the kind of Mother that a child would look up to, I realize not all Mother's are like this but I was very fortunate to have one like her! However when I became a mom myself it sort of changed a bit! I realized that I lacked the patience that my mom had. I started to feel like I had wished that each of my children had come with an instruction manual, really parenting is very tough. H and I really felt it when we made the decesion to have a third child. Truth, after having him (and don't get me wrong here because I love him more than anything in the world) life changed a whole lot! Our family dynamic's changed, and it became very stressful and overwhemling to me. There were many day's when I thought I would never be bale to handle the challenges that I was facing everyday. However, I made this choice and it's now my duty to try and be the very best parent I can to all my children! While there are many moment's just like you describe above, I would never ever regret my decesion to have my three little blessing's, ever! God gave me three special gift's and for that I am so thankful I try to remember that each day when faced with the many challenges that raising children present. I have know idea if I answered anything here for you, just wanted to offer my thought's. Good luck!
AP
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