[Lights]

Is there a way of communicating "Get real. You'll need to seriously step it up to have a chance with me. If you can't handle that, then get lost." to an entire social culture?

So far the only action I know when faced with the disgusting joke I seem to be up against is to boycott the social life here, and simply cut off existing acquaintances. That tactic has proven effective for what it is, but it does not yield the overall improvement desired (having the entire culture step it up).

There exist urban legends that allege that people teach others how they are to be treated, whether through self-fulfilling prophecies or unconscious actions or other preferred psychobabble di giorno.

Does anyone know of how true they are, and if they are, how applicable they are?

[birdie]

I am not one hundred percent sure exactly what you are trying to say. You can communicate what you want to some but not to an entire culture, no. People are individuals and while it is true that their culture and background will bear heavily on how they behave, they won't behave like sheep and do exactly the same things.

If you have a problem with every single person then it is probably you, not them. An individual close to you possibly owes you something and should 'step things up'. Acquaintances do not. Maybe you should get off that pedestal you put yourself on.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by birdie

I am not one hundred percent sure exactly what you are trying to say. You can communicate what you want to some but not to an entire culture, no. People are individuals and while it is true that their culture and background will bear heavily on how they behave, they won't behave like sheep and do exactly the same things.

If you have a problem with every single person then it is probably you, not them. An individual close to you possibly owes you something and should 'step things up'. Acquaintances do not. Maybe you should get off that pedestal you put yourself on.

This isn't about owing anyone anything. We are, of course, all free individuals.

Basically I'm sick of being lowballed socially, and I'd like to communicate that that's not cool. I've been chronically struck with an epidemic of disgusting tribalistic jokes masquerading as friend-making rituals, sickening and antiquated one-way dating attempts, and the like even when I perform all the necessary rituals, and I'd like people to know that I won't take it anymore.

Currently my only method of dealing with this is to boycott all socializing in this culture. It's certainly effective in getting rid of people who choose to seek bad terms on which to deal with me. But I'd like to learn something more enlightened, perhaps a body language technique that communicates "It'll take much more work to get a chance with this individual; feel free, but make sure to step up and polish your socializing skills first", or the like. Basically how to be perceived, preferably on sight, as the kind of person who is identifiable as someone who does his part in socializing and doesn't accept what I'm currently running into, and is casually used to far better interactions from people from all cultures.

I've done everything I know; as I've run out of ideas, I've come to ask advice on the matter.

[katiebour]

I guess I have a few questions for you. First of all- where are you? Second of all, in what situations/locales/businesses do you find yourself having this unwanted social byplay? And thirdly, how are you dressing?

If you're hanging out in places where people are making lowbrow, disgusting comments, then maybe it's time to try hanging out somewhere else.

If you dress more formally and expensively, it will give you an appearance of higher social status. If you combine that with a "don't approach me" social demeanor I don't see that it would continue to be a problem.

But of course there are some situations and cultures where you can't do much. When I lived in Japan people ALWAYS noticed me- I'm not Asian and I stuck out like a sore thumb being taller and whiter than most of the women. I had some people become extremely friendly and try to speak English with me- I think they wanted to practice.

I mostly stayed away from bars; if I went out it was with fellow foreign coworkers (which tends to discourage the locals... foreigners in large numbers are intimidating.)

My roommate had incredible problems with being approached by men. Of course she was also blond and curly-haired with green eyes- even more of a curiosity and turn-on for the locals. She also had the disturbing tendency of going out and getting drunk on a regular basis... she often gave out her cell number while drunk and had unwanted callers all the time. One guy in particular called and called, at all hours of the night, usually drunk-dialing her. She told him in her very Kiwi manner to "f*** off" and he called even more.

My roommate could do nothing about her physical appeal. However, her decision to go out and party, to get drunk, to give out her phone number and to wear tight and revealing clothing all contributed to her situation.

When I rode the train I listened to my CD player (this was back in the Stone Age before MP3 players came out...lol) and I carried at least one book everywhere with me. People are less likely to disturb someone who is listening to music or reading.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by katiebour

I guess I have a few questions for you. First of all- where are you? Second of all, in what situations/locales/businesses do you find yourself having this unwanted social byplay? And thirdly, how are you dressing?

Hi Katiebour,

It's not about unwanted social byplay, but rather about the level of what's offered to me as far as socializing goes. Been tired of trying to find new friends outside my work area and finding that people most anywhere I seem to be are tribalistic jokes and that most all interaction goes only one way. (Maybe it's just me, but it's been too often that I've found that many cases of finding "friends" really are cases of finding incidental human shapes in the background among whom one spends time as long as one of the shepherds says one is to be treated as in-crowd.) Been tired of trying to create an actual dating life and finding that it's a sickening waste of my time and it too only goes one way.

I'd like to come across as someone who's not used to one-way dealings, and who most likely routinely comes across people who offer more and are far more advanced.

I'm in the USA, and in these situations I'm wearing a t-shirt-and-jeans or the equivalent for the weather type.

Originally Posted by katiebour

If you dress more formally and expensively, it will give you an appearance of higher social status. If you combine that with a "don't approach me" social demeanor I don't see that it would continue to be a problem.

Well, I've found that save for a few exceptions that can be counted on one hand, people don't approach me at all unless they're ordered to by a superior in their clique. However, I can't count how many times I've reached out myself. I'd like to communicate to the culture somehow that that sort of asymmetry isn't something I'll tolerate long.

[Lights]

If anyone could help, it'd be very much appreciated.

[katiebour]

Originally Posted by Lights

Hi Katiebour,

It's not about unwanted social byplay, but rather about the level of what's offered to me as far as socializing goes. Been tired of trying to find new friends outside my work area and finding that people most anywhere I seem to be are tribalistic jokes and that most all interaction goes only one way.

I'm a bit unclear as to what you mean by "tribalistic jokes" or that all of your interaction goes one way- do you talk to people and they just stare back at you? Are you saying that you, basically are carrying the conversation? If that's the case then either you are intimidating the people that you are trying to converse with or you simply have nothing in common.

Maybe it's just me, but it's been too often that I've found that many cases of finding "friends" really are cases of finding incidental human shapes in the background among whom one spends time as long as one of the shepherds says one is to be treated as in-crowd.

Welcome to my entire high-school existence...hehehe. I guess the one gem I took away from that was that being part of the "in-crowd" wasn't all that desirable and that the best sort of folks were my fellow oddballs and outcasts. I have a lot of problem making friends out of strangers myself- most of my close friends I met while living in the dorms in college.

Been tired of trying to create an actual dating life and finding that it's a sickening waste of my time and it too only goes one way.

You know, the last time I was single I couldn't even imagine just going out and trying to randomly meet someone. I've never done that and I can't imagine how meeting someone in a bar could lead to a meaningful connection. I actually met my first b/f through a friend; the second and third I met over the internet.

I'd like to come across as someone who's not used to one-way dealings, and who most likely routinely comes across people who offer more and are far more advanced.

Depending on where you are, that can be a really difficult thing. I had an almost impossible time trying to make friends in the Midwest when I was younger, and even though I live there now most of my socializing is done with friends of my boyfriend. Unfortunately most of the people who choose to remain in this part of the country are of a certain theological and political viewpoint, and even I dare say of a certain temperament that is incompatible and boring to me. I've met a few friends at work, and the kids are full of zest and excitement (I work in the cafeteria at a university here) but by and large most here are politically conservative, religiously zealous, and their most common topics of conversation are weather, sports, and tv shows. The culture on the West Coast seems to be a bit more open minded and I had far less difficulty meeting people of a similar mindset. Of course there's also a larger variety of activities (volunteer work, dance classes, art/pottery/cooking classes, etc) which tend to attract the more interesting people.

I'm in the USA, and in these situations I'm wearing a t-shirt-and-jeans or the equivalent for the weather type.

Well I'm in the USA too, so I can vouch for the fact that we're not all mindless and boring Seriously though, many/most of my adult social contacts were made through:

www.myspace.com
www.craigslist.org
http://www.meetin.org

craiglist is good for free dating and booty calls I went on several dates through craigslist and it was a lot of fun, although none led to a permanent connection. I joined Meet-in when I lived in Portland, OR, and went on several really fun trips. We went and cleaned up garbage on the coast, ate at a seaside restaurant and then some of the folks rented a hotel room and we sat around playing cards/chatting/imbibing. It was fun. They have all sorts of events. I also went on a tour of the Shanghai Tunnels under Portland through Meet-in. I think the best thing about Meet-in is that meeting people revolves around the events that people set up- it's not just getting together and standing around awkwardly, you know?

Well, I've found that save for a few exceptions that can be counted on one hand, people don't approach me at all unless they're ordered to by a superior in their clique. However, I can't count how many times I've reached out myself.

It really sounds to me like the locals are intimidated by you. If you're from another country, and in a small-town part of the US, then that kind of reaction is par for the course. Again I would suggest either some networking sites on the web, or joining some college classes if they are available.

I'd like to communicate to the culture somehow that that sort of asymmetry isn't something I'll tolerate long.

You do realize that this sounds like a very demanding statement? You can't make people like you, anywhere. The people aren't going to change for you- either you change or you move. The people who live in your locale have likely been there for years before you came, and will be there for years after you leave. They're not going to change their behavior, beliefs, or habits to suit you.

In any case, I'm sorry that you're having so much trouble finding friends. It's difficult for me, too, and I'm from here! Best of luck to you.

[Trialbyfire]

Lights, members have tried again and again to help you. Instead you prefer to believe in your superiority, hence difference. If you come across to people in real life the same way, it's not surprising you find it difficult to be accepted. Why do people owe you acceptance, when you refuse to accept anyone else?

[Lights]

Originally Posted by katiebour

I'm a bit unclear as to what you mean by "tribalistic jokes" or that all of your interaction goes one way- do you talk to people and they just stare back at you? Are you saying that you, basically are carrying the conversation? If that's the case then either you are intimidating the people that you are trying to converse with or you simply have nothing in common.

It goes one way, save for in specialized cases, from start to end.
I've attempted to meet countless people; I can count on one hand the number of men who've even walked up and said hi in my direction of their own accord with the intention of meeting a new person (me), and the number of such women who have attempted the same does not even require any active attempt at counting.
I'm finding it's me who's making any attempt at distant media contact; it's been some years since I've last found someone actually send me an email instead of it always starting from me. Even among established (now former) friends I find the same thing even on mundane stuff like phone calls or IMs. Very rarely is it ever so much as a "Yo, it's Frank. We're setting up a [activity] on [future day]. Hit me up if you want in."

Of course, one shouldn't dwell on such matters, but seeing this chronically happen certainly hasn't exactly led to good faith between me and the people. I'm not anyone's tag-along, and my patience in the process of meeting people is quite finite.

To answer your question regarding what I mean by tribalistic, it's that few dare deal with anyone outside their little cliques unless ordered to by one of their bellwethers. I'd consider this suitable were I a 9-year old, but I'm in the dark side of my 20s...

Originally Posted by katiebour

Depending on where you are, that can be a really difficult thing...The culture on the West Coast seems to be a bit more open minded and I had far less difficulty meeting people of a similar mindset. Of course there's also a larger variety of activities (volunteer work, dance classes, art/pottery/cooking classes, etc) which tend to attract the more interesting people...Seriously though, many/most of my adult social contacts were made through:

www.myspace.com
www.craigslist.org
http://www.meetin.org

craiglist is good for free dating and booty calls I went on several dates through craigslist and it was a lot of fun, although none led to a permanent connection. I joined Meet-in when I lived in Portland, OR, and went on several really fun trips. We went and cleaned up garbage on the coast, ate at a seaside restaurant and then some of the folks rented a hotel room and we sat around playing cards/chatting/imbibing. It was fun. They have all sorts of events. I also went on a tour of the Shanghai Tunnels under Portland through Meet-in. I think the best thing about Meet-in is that meeting people revolves around the events that people set up- it's not just getting together and standing around awkwardly, you know?

Thank you for the information, Katiebour. I'll definitely look into these.

Originally Posted by katiebour

If you're from another country, and in a small-town part of the US, then that kind of reaction is par for the course.

I am from this country, and this goes on in all population density zones I've encountered (small-town, suburb, city).

Originally Posted by katiebour

...either you change or you move.

Amen. Once I find some good visa-sponsoring jobs in my field, I am out of here.

Originally Posted by katiebour

In any case, I'm sorry that you're having so much trouble finding friends. It's difficult for me, too, and I'm from here! Best of luck to you.

Thanks, and best of luck to you too.

Originally Posted by Trialbyfire

Lights, members have tried again and again to help you. Instead you prefer to believe in your superiority, hence difference. If you come across to people in real life the same way, it's not surprising you find it difficult to be accepted. Why do people owe you acceptance, when you refuse to accept anyone else?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

True, members here have tried to help me. Are you asking me why I keep returning to online forums looking for advice? I think it may be more a matter of the degree of resistance I'm facing from the people I encounter rather than anything about the forum here or the advice itself--this isn't anything personal nor a denial or insult to the advice itself either. If it's coming across as the latter, I can only say I'm sorry.

As far as any possible matter of superiority goes, well, that's the issue itself. I've been feeling that what I've been getting for my efforts has rarely ever been up to the proverbial snuff (i.e. my efforts were very much superior to those that were proffered directly to me without intervention), and I'd like that to change to something more equitable. I can solve the problem by cutting off all social dealings (one way to render the situation more equitable), but I'd rather not have it be that way.

What difference are you referring to? I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't know how I come across as on this board, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's frustrated and angry. (That is the actual situation.)

No one owes me acceptance, but nor do I owe anyone else that. All I can say on that is that it has to go both ways if acceptance is appropriate, and I haven't been seeing that happening.

I better stop. I'm not sure how much longer I can even think about this.

[Trimmer]

Originally Posted by katiebour

Unfortunately most of the people who choose to remain in this part of the country are of a certain theological and political viewpoint, and even I dare say of a certain temperament that is incompatible and boring to me. I've met a few friends at work, and the kids are full of zest and excitement (I work in the cafeteria at a university here) but by and large most here are politically conservative, religiously zealous, and their most common topics of conversation are weather, sports, and tv shows. The culture on the West Coast seems to be a bit more open minded and I had far less difficulty meeting people of a similar mindset. Of course there's also a larger variety of activities (volunteer work, dance classes, art/pottery/cooking classes, etc) which tend to attract the more interesting people.

I think this is an excellent point. Lights has said in the past:

Originally Posted by Lights

The thing is, situations wherein people specifically want to meet anyone with purely social intentions really don't exist where I come from.

So there may be a regional element here, but I wonder if Lights' primary issue is more based in attitude than region.

Originally Posted by Lights

To answer your question regarding what I mean by tribalistic, it's that few dare deal with anyone outside their little cliques unless ordered to by one of their bellwethers. I'd consider this suitable were I a 9-year old, but I'm in the dark side of my 20s...

I'm trying to understand the literal point obscured behind your metaphors and abstract use of language... You are saying that your lack of social success is because people in their late 20's will not approach you unless they are ordered to by leaders of their cliques? Do you seriously believe this?

Originally Posted by Lights

I don't know how I come across as on this board, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's frustrated and angry. (That is the actual situation.)

I'm not doing this to beat on you, but to give you an outside viewpoint, limited indeed by my own perspectives and my narrow view of you only through what I see in your postings... You come across as someone who believes yourself to meet a high standard, and is mystified and frustrated that many in the world don't meet that standard, or that those who might be able to meet that standard will not "do their part" to approach you. You may object to this characterization, but I get the sense that you feel entitled to some things that you are not getting from the world.

Originally Posted by Lights

No one owes me acceptance, but nor do I owe anyone else that. All I can say on that is that it has to go both ways if acceptance is appropriate, and I haven't been seeing that happening.

I think my fundamental point here is that no one owes you anything. You are given (by others) what you attract. Whether that is respect (as we discussed at length in your "how to eradicate rude rejections" thread), friendship, romance, or whatever, if you aren't being "given" it, then for whatever reason, you aren't attracting it.

And this brings me at last to the original question in your post. If you find that you are not getting what you want from your social interactions, if your field of opportunities is too narrow, if you are not being "given" the chances at interaction that you think you should have, then I think that communicating to the world "you'll have to step it up if you want a chance with me" can only have the effect of further narrowing your field of opportunities. How can it be anything otherwise?

I think this flows from this entitlement attitude that you feel you deserve something that the world is not delivering. You seem to think that if you just figure out a way to successfully communicate your expectations "to a culture," that people will change and will start presenting you with social opportunites more suitable to your preferences. As I said before, you are given what you attract, so I concede that changing how you present yourself can well change the opportunities you encounter. I just think that putting off a vibe of "hey, you'd better step it up because here's what I expect/demand" and "I won't take it anymore" is (a) not likely to change anyone else's approach to life, (b) is more likely to generally narrow your opportunities, and (c) is not really that likely to add any more suitable opportunities of the types you crave, if they aren't already there.

[Trialbyfire]

Lights, I'm not going to get into the complexity of social interaction and the impact of current culture v. Lights.

I'm just going to give one example, in a person to person fashion.

Lights is on LS seeking help. Does Lights help anyone else on LS?

[Lights]

Originally Posted by Trialbyfire

Lights, I'm not going to get into the complexity of social interaction and the impact of current culture v. Lights.

I'm just going to give one example, in a person to person fashion.

Lights is on LS seeking help. Does Lights help anyone else on LS?

Regrettably, I haven't the qualifications to offer much help on that much of anything here. Not exactly a surprise, I wouldn't think.

Originally Posted by Trimmer

I'm trying to understand the literal point obscured behind your metaphors and abstract use of language... You are saying that your lack of social success is because people in their late 20's will not approach you unless they are ordered to by leaders of their cliques? Do you seriously believe this?

Nah, I'm saying that it's frustrating (and increasingly feels like a repulsive waste of time) dealing with people who are terrified of dealing with others not defined as in their cliques unless ordered to regardless of who does the approaching. That much I do believe. And I don't feel I worked hard polishing my social skills just so I could battle through the likes of that.

I don't know what my personal lack of social successes may be about overall, if you're asking me that.

Originally Posted by Trimmer

You are given (by others) what you attract. Whether that is respect (as we discussed at length in your "how to eradicate rude rejections" thread), friendship, romance, or whatever, if you aren't being "given" it, then for whatever reason, you aren't attracting it.

Which is why I'm asking advice...

Originally Posted by Trimmer

And this brings me at last to the original question in your post. If you find that you are not getting what you want from your social interactions, if your field of opportunities is too narrow, if you are not being "given" the chances at interaction that you think you should have, then I think that communicating to the world "you'll have to step it up if you want a chance with me" can only have the effect of further narrowing your field of opportunities. How can it be anything otherwise?

True, but at least that tactic will narrow out mainly those that don't have the capabilities involved in stepping it up (as opposed to the solution I've historically used, which is cut myself off from everyone). I think we can agree that one who is, say, not interested in being a tag-along, might be interested in cutting off those who seek a chump to have as a tag-along (and likewise for any other such dealing that one might consider not worthy of the effort put in).

Originally Posted by Trimmer

As I said before, you are given what you attract, so I concede that changing how you present yourself can well change the opportunities you encounter. I just think that putting off a vibe of "hey, you'd better step it up because here's what I expect/demand" and "I won't take it anymore" is (a) not likely to change anyone else's approach to life, (b) is more likely to generally narrow your opportunities, and (c) is not really that likely to add any more suitable opportunities of the types you crave, if they aren't already there.

Where would I learn more about what would set up (c)?

[Trialbyfire]

Okay. I'm afraid I don't have a psychology degree, therefore have insufficient qualifications to help you. I'll bow out.

Notice the interaction between you and I?

[Lights]

Originally Posted by Trialbyfire

Okay. I'm afraid I don't have a psychology degree, therefore have insufficient qualifications to help you. I'll bow out.

Notice the interaction between you and I?

I don't know if you are trying to joke with me about the matter, but if you are, it is not welcome. If not, and if that is some sort of serious answer to my earlier response regarding why I do not advise other people much here, then suffice it to say that given my own social history, few people would have use for any advice I could possibly give, and fewer still would be likely to benefit from actually using it.

[sb129]

Originally Posted by Trialbyfire

Lights, members have tried again and again to help you. Instead you prefer to believe in your superiority, hence difference. If you come across to people in real life the same way, it's not surprising you find it difficult to be accepted. Why do people owe you acceptance, when you refuse to accept anyone else?

I agree with this. I also think that Katie and Trimmer have given you some excellent and thoughtful advice, which are essentially saying the same thing as Trialbyfire.
I agree with them- does the fact that four out of four people responding to your thread are saying the same thing not give you an indication that perhaps it might be worth listening to them?

It seems to me that you either accept what is around you, and make yourself a little more acceptable to that society, be a loner, or move.

She told him in her very Kiwi manner to "f*** off"

Ahh gotta love those Kiwi girls!