When does it stop being an A?

[HPrynne]

I think this is probably a matter of opinion, and I'm interested in hearing different thoughts on it.

 

The relationship started as an A, unfortunately. However we are both separated now, BSs know there will not be any reconciliation, and we are working on all of the practical D requisites such as complete separation of finances, formal agreements, etc. BSs also know we are dating (do not know who & the agreement is to be discreet about it). No D-Day and we will not be disclosing the A (though would be honest if it were discovered).

 

I know some people prefer the technical notion that it's always an A unless you have executed final divorce documents (or a court has). I don't see it that way but I get the idea.

 

It feels to me like it mostly stops being an A now, because our STBXs no longer expect fidelity and both Ms are well on the way to being ended.

 

It feels to me though that the point at which it stops being an A is when we can openly acknowledge the relationship. Being discreet is one thing and I understand why STBXs want the sensitivity of not having new partners thrown around in conversation. So I don't mean telling the STBX or making involvement in each other's lives excessively obvious. Instead, I mean the point at which we aren't concerned about other people, mutual friends etc. knowing that we are a couple. At that point there isn't anything furtive about the relationship, although there is consideration of the STBX (not changing social media habits overtly, not diving head-first into each other's lives in a way that would be obtrusive to the ex, that kind of thing). Eventually exes will know the relationship is serious, assuming we stay together, but that can wait. I don't feel like there is any particular rush since we intend to spend our lives together.

 

The silence and secrecy of being in an A is maddening. It's one thing I'm very much looking forward to putting behind us.

 

Thoughts on when an A is no longer an A?

[Lernaean_Hydra]

It doesn't have to be like.. when the divorce is finalized or something. IMO, it stops being an affair the moment the marriage ends. And by end I mean the point in which both parties mutually agree and understand that things are over and the romantic aspect of their relationship is dissolved.

 

Without arguing semantics, if a guy is married to a woman he hasn't seen or heard from for a decade and he gets a girlfriend, he and his girlfriend are certainly not having an A. It would just be ridiculous to even call it that. So they don't have to be divorced, just definitely "not together".

 

This thing that you've got going on now, while it's not an affair it certainly does sound shady. Nevertheless, people carry on secret/private/low-key relationships all the time, it doesn't mean they're illicit, they just might not want everyone in their business.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Lernaean_Hydra

[Be_Strong]

Wait until the divorce is final and even then keep it low key for the first year. Most people in the community will assume that a relationship existing immediately at the point of divorce was likely begun as an affair that caused the divorce.

[DKT3]

Unless you two are married to a couple ignoramous' they will figure it out. Why not at least give them that, so they know why the marriages really ended. Don't your spouses deserve that? They will be angry, maybe even make the divorces more difficult, at least they don't have to wonder what they did wrong or how they could have done better.

 

Its an affair as long as there is shame in being public.

[HPrynne]

It doesn't have to be like.. when the divorce is finalized or something. IMO, it stops being an affair the moment the marriage ends. And by end I mean the point in which both parties mutually agree and understand that things are over and the romantic aspect of their relationship is dissolved.

 

That makes sense, although it can be hard to know what "mutually agree" really means. My STBX and I have an agreement regarding seeing other people and he knows that I am, but he still wants to reconcile (even though I have told him very clearly that is not going to happen) so there is some level of acceptance but not completely. However, that could go on indefinitely and he is refusing counseling (individual or divorce, I will not do M counseling). The M is absolutely over for me because of abuse that occurred. I can forgive him, but can't ever trust him fully or be in an intimate/romantic relationship with him again.

[HPrynne]

Wait until the divorce is final and even then keep it low key for the first year. Most people in the community will assume that a relationship existing immediately at the point of divorce was likely begun as an affair that caused the divorce.

 

That seems like good advice. I've had friends who had divorces that took a while (around here it always seems to take 1-2 years) and they usually had separate households and it was not unusual for them to be dating and to get seriously involved with someone (in one case, engaged; in another, eventually married after divorce was final). I don't recall there being a lot of speculation that either of those was an A that caused the demise of the M, but I can see why people would think it. Low-key for some relatively long period of time is what I want (a year sounds reasonable, although I'm not sure it makes sense for that year to not even start until after divorces are final). I like the idea of continuing to have my own place, not rushing things, and giving the relationship time and space to develop before doing anything like sharing a residence or getting engaged/married. That said, I wouldn't be happy if the relationship wasn't progressing at all.

[whatatangledweb]

I would say it is an affair until you can go out and be completely open that you are together. Hiding it makes it still an affair.

 

I met and started dating my husband now while I was going through a divorce with my first husband. Everyone knew we were dating and then living together including my first husband. It was never considered an affair by anyone. Though going by these forums people may call it one.

[HPrynne]

I would say it is an affair until you can go out and be completely open that you are together. Hiding it makes it still an affair.

 

I agree with that - it feels like an A to me until it can be totally in the open. Not that that means advertising it, but that you go about it like a normal relationship and are not concerned about anyone finding out.

 

I met and started dating my husband now while I was going through a divorce with my first husband. Everyone knew we were dating and then living together including my first husband. It was never considered an affair by anyone. Though going by these forums people may call it one.

 

I don't think what you're describing is an A at all, but I too have heard different definitions on this forum that suggest some here might consider it one.

[HPrynne]

Its an affair as long as there is shame in being public.

 

Shame is an interesting way to put it. I wonder if I would feel ashamed if it came out. Sorry, yes, because of the additional hurt it would inflict, but I haven't felt guilt so I don't know that I would feel shame. I was very communicative with my STBX about the breakdown of our relationship, what I needed, what he could do to repair our relationship (back when it was reparable, long before the A). He continued to use drugs, not contribute, and eventually began abusing me. He finally got clean (hopefully it sticks) after I left, but that was way, way too late to save the M.

 

I worked hard at my M through some tough years, dealing with difficult issues, because I felt the relationship and my STBX had merit (and some great times, don't get me wrong). I loved him, was deeply invested, and I didn't want to just give up. I gave him many, many chances and tried everything I could think of short of leaving him. But when it was over, it was just over.

 

The A was wrong and I wish I'd done that part differently, but I have not felt the guilt or shame I often see on these boards. I don't think the A was justified; it was wrong. I think As are awful for all involved, and I'd know better than to do it again. Still, I don't regret it. Oddly enough, despite having to go through a lot, it looks like everyone is ending up in a better place than before. Hope that continues to be the case.

[DKT3]

Shame is an interesting way to put it. I wonder if I would feel ashamed if it came out. Sorry, yes, because of the additional hurt it would inflict, but I haven't felt guilt so I don't know that I would feel shame. I was very communicative with my STBX about the breakdown of our relationship, what I needed, what he could do to repair our relationship (back when it was reparable, long before the A). He continued to use drugs, not contribute, and eventually began abusing me. He finally got clean (hopefully it sticks) after I left, but that was way, way too late to save the M.

 

I worked hard at my M through some tough years, dealing with difficult issues, because I felt the relationship and my STBX had merit (and some great times, don't get me wrong). I loved him, was deeply invested, and I didn't want to just give up. I gave him many, many chances and tried everything I could think of short of leaving him. But when it was over, it was just over.

 

The A was wrong and I wish I'd done that part differently, but I have not felt the guilt or shame I often see on these boards. I don't think the A was justified; it was wrong. I think As are awful for all involved, and I'd know better than to do it again. Still, I don't regret it. Oddly enough, despite having to go through a lot, it looks like everyone is ending up in a better place than before. Hope that continues to be the case.

 

No your husband will go through a lot more. Doubting himself, wondering why he wasn't enough.

 

Ok so the marriage is over, you felt you did everything, yet your willing to let him go off blaming himself and not having the truth about HIS life. As I said it would damage your relationship more, maybe he gets nasty but that is justifed from your actions.

 

Maybe you have cloaked preventing him hurt under your true intentions, which seems to be saving face and coming at looking to be far better of a person then your actions have merited.

 

My issue in situations like yours are the lack of compassion. Rejection is hard, it because easier when you know you were in a battle that you couldn't win. Your husband never had a chance once MM got involved.

 

Your divorcing, can't you at least give him the truth? Why is it so important that he rides off blissfully ignorant to what his reality was? You may not want to believe this but the feelings that he failed with impact his future relationships. Isn't it worth it to do what you can to aid him in the future? Also ending his desire to R with you. Is there a part of you that enjoy knowing that he still wants you?

[oldshirt]

Unless you two are married to a couple ignoramous' they will figure it out. Why not at least give them that, so they know why the marriages really ended. Don't your spouses deserve that? They will be angry, maybe even make the divorces more difficult, at least they don't have to wonder what they did wrong or how they could have done better.

 

Its an affair as long as there is shame in being public.

 

Yeah really, what makes you think they won't know?

 

It might make the divorces more difficult but there is just as good of a chance it will make things quicker and easier. Once they know you are this deep into an affair they may gladly divorce you and do everything in their power to speed it up and move on with their own lives as well.

 

As it stands now, each of them may feel if they can drag their feet on the divorce and work harder, they may be able to reconcile.

[oldshirt]

......and as far as addressing your question, others will surely disagree with this but IMHO once you have clearly declared your intentions so that your spouse clearly understands your intentions and some form of legal separation with child care and property/asset division is in place and the divorce papers have been filed, I believe at that point you are a single, consenting adult and you are free to do whatever you want.

 

My personal opinion is a person is morally and ethically single once the other spouse has been served papers. The fact that it may take the courts a year or more to catch up to that and legally sanctify is just a legal technicality. The legal wheels can turn painfully slow and it just takes that long for the courthouse to catch up.

 

So in my opinion I think you can declare the 'affair' a relationship the day your BS is served divorce papers and you can walk down the street hand in hand with your head held high.

 

...but now realize every action is going to carry its own set of repercussions and consequences. People will judge and they will treat you accordingly. There will be a different set of repercussions if you keep it secret until a year after the divorce is finalized as well.

 

You just have to pick and choose which advantages and disadvantages work best for you.

[HPrynne]

All of the below is off-topic nonsense and I won't be responding to it. I'm certainly not going to share enough detail to explain why my STBX doesn't somehow "deserve" to know or has been shown a lack of compassion by me. It's ridiculous that I can't pose a simple question without this off-topic derailment, yet again.

 

Question - would a disclaimer in my first post (such as: Please, no exhortations to tell my STBX about the A, because it's not going to happen) have deterred you from pursuing this off-topic line of inquiry?

 

Unless you two are married to a couple ignoramous' they will figure it out. Why not at least give them that, so they know why the marriages really ended. Don't your spouses deserve that? They will be angry, maybe even make the divorces more difficult, at least they don't have to wonder what they did wrong or how they could have done better.

 

No your husband will go through a lot more. Doubting himself, wondering why he wasn't enough.

 

Ok so the marriage is over, you felt you did everything, yet your willing to let him go off blaming himself and not having the truth about HIS life. As I said it would damage your relationship more, maybe he gets nasty but that is justifed from your actions.

 

Maybe you have cloaked preventing him hurt under your true intentions, which seems to be saving face and coming at looking to be far better of a person then your actions have merited.

 

My issue in situations like yours are the lack of compassion. Rejection is hard, it because easier when you know you were in a battle that you couldn't win. Your husband never had a chance once MM got involved.

 

Your divorcing, can't you at least give him the truth? Why is it so important that he rides off blissfully ignorant to what his reality was? You may not want to believe this but the feelings that he failed with impact his future relationships. Isn't it worth it to do what you can to aid him in the future? Also ending his desire to R with you. Is there a part of you that enjoy knowing that he still wants you?

 

Yeah really, what makes you think they won't know?

 

It might make the divorces more difficult but there is just as good of a chance it will make things quicker and easier. Once they know you are this deep into an affair they may gladly divorce you and do everything in their power to speed it up and move on with their own lives as well.

 

As it stands now, each of them may feel if they can drag their feet on the divorce and work harder, they may be able to reconcile.

[HPrynne]

Oldshirt, thanks for giving me your opinion on my original question. It's helpful to have multiple perspectives and I think you're right that each choice has its own set of advantages and disadvantages. Something to think about.

[HermioneG]

I would say it is an affair until you can go out and be completely open that you are together. Hiding it makes it still an affair.

 

I met and started dating my husband now while I was going through a divorce with my first husband. Everyone knew we were dating and then living together including my first husband. It was never considered an affair by anyone. Though going by these forums people may call it one.

 

I would not call your situation an affair.

[DKT3]

All of the below is off-topic nonsense and I won't be responding to it. I'm certainly not going to share enough detail to explain why my STBX doesn't somehow "deserve" to know or has been shown a lack of compassion by me. It's ridiculous that I can't pose a simple question without this off-topic derailment, yet again.

 

Question - would a disclaimer in my first post (such as: Please, no exhortations to tell my STBX about the A, because it's not going to happen) have deterred you from pursuing this off-topic line of inquiry?

 

Off topic? Yes. However you started in about how great your communication was with him.

 

At any rate, good luck to you.

[cocorico]

It feels to me though that the point at which it stops being an A is when we can openly acknowledge the relationship. Being discreet is one thing and I understand why STBXs want the sensitivity of not having new partners thrown around in conversation. So I don't mean telling the STBX or making involvement in each other's lives excessively obvious. Instead, I mean the point at which we aren't concerned about other people, mutual friends etc. knowing that we are a couple. At that point there isn't anything furtive about the relationship, although there is consideration of the STBX (not changing social media habits overtly, not diving head-first into each other's lives in a way that would be obtrusive to the ex, that kind of thing). Eventually exes will know the relationship is serious, assuming we stay together, but that can wait. I don't feel like there is any particular rush since we intend to spend our lives together.

 

 

By this token, our A was never an A. We were openly a couple, with family, friends, neighbours and colleagues knowing. The only one who didn't know - at least, initially - was the BW. Yet, I don't think anyone on these boards would consider that to have been "not an A", simply because we were open - in fact, some people feel it made it worse that we were open.

 

I think for us, the R ceased being an A when he moved out, instituted D proceedings, removed her physically from his life in all ways (e.g. She had been listed on his insurance as an insured driver of his car; they were both listed as owners of his home, etc) and conveyed to officialdom (e.g. The kids' school, the GP surgery, the post office, etc) that he had moved on. There was a very clear burning of bridges, and although their lives had always been very separate before, to the extent than many people hadn't known they'd been M, he made sure his status as "no longer with her in any way" was clear to everyone.

[cocorico]

That makes sense, although it can be hard to know what "mutually agree" really means.

 

Quite. My H's XW thought the D was simply a lever to get her to agree to MC, and even after it was finalised she was still in denial, acting as though he would arrive back at any minute. The kids reported that she left my H's bedroom just as he'd left it (when he moved out) and wouldn't allow anyone else to use it, "in case he needed it" even though it was clear he'd gone for good.

 

Even after we were M, she still referred to him as her H.

[cif]

When it's out in the open.

 

A marriage is over once the spouses decide it is. Divorce is just a court's stamp. Many people separate but never finalize divorce because of $$$ or children.

[cocorico]

.

 

Its an affair as long as there is shame in being public.

 

Interesting notion. I cannot conceive of being in any R I felt shame about.

 

Nor can I conceive of being in a R with anyone who felt shame about being in a R with me.

 

I'm really saddened to learn that this isn't the case for everyone.

[EverySunset]

......and as far as addressing your question, others will surely disagree with this but IMHO once you have clearly declared your intentions so that your spouse clearly understands your intentions and some form of legal separation with child care and property/asset division is in place and the divorce papers have been filed, I believe at that point you are a single, consenting adult and you are free to do whatever you want.

 

My personal opinion is a person is morally and ethically single once the other spouse has been served papers. The fact that it may take the courts a year or more to catch up to that and legally sanctify is just a legal technicality. The legal wheels can turn painfully slow and it just takes that long for the courthouse to catch up.

 

So in my opinion I think you can declare the 'affair' a relationship the day your BS is served divorce papers and you can walk down the street hand in hand with your head held high.

 

...but now realize every action is going to carry its own set of repercussions and consequences. People will judge and they will treat you accordingly. There will be a different set of repercussions if you keep it secret until a year after the divorce is finalized as well.

 

You just have to pick and choose which advantages and disadvantages work best for you.

 

I am very much in the boat old shirt describes. Where I live the process starts at one year (unless there is verifiable abuse or cruelty) and can easily take upwards of that... As in 2-3 easy with even minor disputes that go to court or resolution. It's arduous and nearly everyone here is completely comfortable dating or dating someone officially separated.

 

Is there the chance of reconciliation in that situation, yes, but I've rarely seen it. You have to be up to the task of the whole process and few throw in the towel. It's generally easier to just get remarried, even to your former spouse!

 

That said, it doesn't mean things aren't sticky. Just because it's not an affair doesn't mean an ex spouse can't get jealous or start problems. Now THAT I see all the time.

 

Good luck to you... I wish all involved peace of mind and happiness of spirit. We all deserve to that.