MM, OW, Telling the Truth

[Redheaded Mistress]

Since my original point is more evolving into a discussion about my marital dynamic, I split this to its own thread... It's totally OK and I'm not bothered, so I don't mean it like I'm irritated, just I don't want to further jack the thread and disrespect the OP by making it about me. I know she's reading it, interacting, and liking the content, but still... Her thread with her story should stay her thread and her story and I apologize for the veering of course.

 

No, it stood out because twice seemed like a lot for major lies.

 

I mean, the fact it was two lies stood out to me because it was only two lies. And to be clear, when I say "major lie," I mean it as in a range between "no, I didn't buy you anything for your birthday" and "I'm really a woman and I have a husband and another family I never told you about."

 

I'm going to admit, I feel guilty... I'd like to further elaborate on what the lies are, but they were so long ago and I forgave him for them. We did work through these issues and moved forward... Because I forgave him for it, I almost feel like discussing it is going back on that forgiveness. So I'll admit, while I really want to share and maintain the openness and honesty I try to maintain on here, I feel a loyalty to my husband and a worry that he'd feel like I'm clinging on to what we've buried long ago, when really I meant it as a statement of pride in our pledge to be honest with each other.

 

I'm going to talk to him about it and see what he feels, but I feel like if the whole of the context is there, you'd understand that when I say "major lie," I mean it in that it was major in that it was said and he never lies, but they weren't something huge like another affair, a secret child, etc etc.

 

But yes, it does depend on the lie. It just seemed strange that you were saying that you are SURE he never lies since he has only lied about major things twice.

 

Like I said, major lie in that it was an actual lie told to me, but not major as in the earth was shattered as a result of what was said. The best I can do is try to shed light on what I mean by pulling out what one of my lies to him... I figure that's OK because that's my lie and up to him to forgive me for, right?

 

Anyway, I lied to him about who I voted for in an election. It was really, really early in our relationship and despite our agreeing about most everything, we couldn't be more opposites politically and we get into some raging debates where we'll never see eye to eye. Towards the election, he was really getting amped for his candidate and said something really insulting (unintentionally) about those who'd vote for the other candidate without it registering with him I'd probably vote for that candidate. It hit me the wrong way and because I didn't want to debate it with him as we'd only go around in circles, I let it go. But when we went to vote, what he said stuck with me.

 

After we were done, I didn't think he'd ask who I voted for... Like I said, we don't agree in politics at all and we try to just avoid it usually... But he did. Remembering that comment and feeling kind of ashamed that he'd feel like that about me and wanting to avoid the debate on the issue, I lied and said I voted his way for that candidate, then down party lines for the rest, when the truth was I voted down party lines on all candidates.

 

I felt guilty and ended up coming clean when we got home and explained why. I apologized and said I should have the courage of my convictions to stand up for my political ideals, he apologized for saying something that inadvertently insulted me and that was it. And he said he didn't really believe I voted off party lines for the candidate, but the thought I was lying when we said we'd never lie was bothering him.

 

So... It's major because it was a lie and we never lie to each other, but it wasn't like earth-shattering. YKWIM?

 

I was convinced my ex-MM never lied to me. Boy was I wrong. But hey, I am glad you are convinced - wish I was that loyal to someone but I will never be again.

 

You know, I never thought I would be either, but it's an intangibility that's hard to explain. It's not about me having him convinced or him having me convinced, it's about us making a goal for our relationship and working hard to maintain it. It's one of the priorities we've made in our relationship and we maintain it and focus on making sure we don't give each other a reason to distrust it.

 

I don't know... I know I'm not explaining it right. It's just when you go through so much for somebody and you really feel it was worth it... At least with us, it means we fight to keep what we went through worth it by being what we always wanted to be for each other. And even though you fight and work for it, and that's hard, the act of choosing to do so and making it work is just... Easy.

 

Now I know I'm making no sense. In the spirit of total honesty, I had one margarita like an hour ago, which in my world means I'm lit.

[Redheaded Mistress]

redheaded mistress

Im curious,how long have you been married to your xap?

 

We're rounding the corner on 6, headed into 7 years married. Include the one year EA, one year off-and-on PA (but I say that loosely, was mostly on... Our offs were generally a few days... Our longest was one or two weeks), and the one year to get the divorce, that puts us at hitting 10 years together. His first marriage was just shy of twoish years before we started our EA, as was mine, though he was with her a total of threeish years (including dating to the start of our EA) and I was with my husband a total of 6ish including dating to the start of the EA.

 

A good friend of mine has been married to her xap for 17 years,but she said he never future faked,he left his marriage,and she left hers,and its worked for them,but I believe that's the key is never future faked,he said he was getting out and so did she and they both did,and there exes are happily remarried to other people too,which is good,and all the kids are grown,and get along with both parents and step parents

sorry to thread jack

 

I think, if I were to be totally honest, we did do a degree of future faking in terms of "if we get together, we'll always be like X, Y, and Z, and we'll never do A, B, and C to each other" and while my husband struggled with staying or leaving his marriage, he may have future faked to try and mentally gear himself up to leaving. I think that hurt more than it helped. I think a degree of fantasy that comes with planning the perfect future is to easy to not do sometimes, especially when things are hard.

 

I honestly have to say, I think what helped us was counseling that we did together, sitting down and clearly laying out what all we needed to make this work and truly hearing from each other what that was, and then sticking with it. The counseling was the trick because when we first went, they said "why are you here?" and it was weird to say "Well, our relationship is great and we have no problems, but we started as an affair and we feel like that will be the source of some relationship challenges... We just don't know what. But we want to be ready for them if they come." We didn't know what we would need so we didn't know how it would help... Which is a reason in and of itself to get the counseling.

 

When I left, I left. I did bounce back to my marital home in a platonic sense when my MM decided to try and R with his wife, but as I said, it was platonic and there was no undertone of it being anything else... Maybe a brief "I guess we should try again?" statement, but nothing we followed through with. He, however, had a harder transition and bounced back and forth a few times. I'll agree, that meant we had issues your friends may not have had to deal with and I occasionally still deal with residual, mostly insecurity as a result. I envy your friends that "easy" transition though.

 

As far as our exes, mine I haven't seen in years, but he's remarried, three kids, by all accounts happy. I'm happy for him because with me he didn't really want children, but I knew he'd be a great Dad. I'm glad he realized that potential in himself and by the fact that he had children at all, he clearly found a girl that was "the girl" in a way I never was. And his kids are so adorable.

 

My ex... That's a odd story to quantify. Her adjustment to single life was harder than it needed to be and took longer than we ever thought, and her dating life since has been a disaster. She had behaviors and tendencies that contributed to marital problems that still exist and without that second paycheck or person there to kind of keep her accountable, those problems have persisted. However, she says she's happy, she appears happy, and while we fluctuate between a functional and an argumentative relationship and she is prone to tantrums (and I don't help, I admit it), things are largely fine between us. Yes there's drama and I still have unresolved issues of anger and lack of forgiveness, I'd like to say I'm working on it, but... I'm not really. Our general peace exists in her doing her thing, us doing ours, and us coming together over the children.

 

Our co-parenting is largely very successful. We may bicker and fight behind-the-scenes, but we all work to just keep the kids out of it. Even if somebody makes a poor choice that impacts them, we cover for each other so that the kids always see everybody in the best possible light. To the kids, they've got two homes, two mothers, a father they see nearly daily, and stability in duel households. So that is fantastic.

 

Overall, we're not perfect, but we are very lucky and we've gotten very far.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Redheaded Mistress

[truncated]

I read your post, and ther eis something very telling about it.

 

You say that you are both honst people, and that you work ver hard to always be honest (exepting "white lies") about major things with each other, because your relationship means so much to the both of you.

 

On its face, that sounds really great, but consider this.Truly honest people don't have to put in an effort to not lie, they don't have to try so hard. It's just who they are, and it comes naturally with no little to no effort or even conscious thought about it.

[Lurkeraspect]

We're rounding the corner on 6, headed into 7 years married. Include the one year EA, one year off-and-on PA (but I say that loosely, was mostly on... Our offs were generally a few days... Our longest was one or two weeks), and the one year to get the divorce, that puts us at hitting 10 years together. His first marriage was just shy of twoish years before we started our EA, as was mine, though he was with her a total of threeish years (including dating to the start of our EA) and I was with my husband a total of 6ish including dating to the start of the EA.

 

 

 

I think, if I were to be totally honest, we did do a degree of future faking in terms of "if we get together, we'll always be like X, Y, and Z, and we'll never do A, B, and C to each other" and while my husband struggled with staying or leaving his marriage, he may have future faked to try and mentally gear himself up to leaving. I think that hurt more than it helped. I think a degree of fantasy that comes with planning the perfect future is to easy to not do sometimes, especially when things are hard.

 

I honestly have to say, I think what helped us was counseling that we did together, sitting down and clearly laying out what all we needed to make this work and truly hearing from each other what that was, and then sticking with it. The counseling was the trick because when we first went, they said "why are you here?" and it was weird to say "Well, our relationship is great and we have no problems, but we started as an affair and we feel like that will be the source of some relationship challenges... We just don't know what. But we want to be ready for them if they come." We didn't know what we would need so we didn't know how it would help... Which is a reason in and of itself to get the counseling.

 

When I left, I left. I did bounce back to my marital home in a platonic sense when my MM decided to try and R with his wife, but as I said, it was platonic and there was no undertone of it being anything else... Maybe a brief "I guess we should try again?" statement, but nothing we followed through with. He, however, had a harder transition and bounced back and forth a few times. I'll agree, that meant we had issues your friends may not have had to deal with and I occasionally still deal with residual, mostly insecurity as a result. I envy your friends that "easy" transition though.

 

As far as our exes, mine I haven't seen in years, but he's remarried, three kids, by all accounts happy. I'm happy for him because with me he didn't really want children, but I knew he'd be a great Dad. I'm glad he realized that potential in himself and by the fact that he had children at all, he clearly found a girl that was "the girl" in a way I never was. And his kids are so adorable.

 

My ex... That's a odd story to quantify. Her adjustment to single life was harder than it needed to be and took longer than we ever thought, and her dating life since has been a disaster. She had behaviors and tendencies that contributed to marital problems that still exist and without that second paycheck or person there to kind of keep her accountable, those problems have persisted. However, she says she's happy, she appears happy, and while we fluctuate between a functional and an argumentative relationship and she is prone to tantrums (and I don't help, I admit it), things are largely fine between us. Yes there's drama and I still have unresolved issues of anger and lack of forgiveness, I'd like to say I'm working on it, but... I'm not really. Our general peace exists in her doing her thing, us doing ours, and us coming together over the children.

 

Our co-parenting is largely very successful. We may bicker and fight behind-the-scenes, but we all work to just keep the kids out of it. Even if somebody makes a poor choice that impacts them, we cover for each other so that the kids always see everybody in the best possible light. To the kids, they've got two homes, two mothers, a father they see nearly daily, and stability in duel households. So that is fantastic.

 

Overall, we're not perfect, but we are very lucky and we've gotten very far.

 

Forgive me, but I'm confused/curious why you still relate to being the OW considering your years of being happily married, and why you chose your username. Seems to me, that you have a legitimate relationship (regardless of the beginnings) and I'm curious of your stance. Will you always identify as the OW/mistress? Seems odd.

[Got it]

I wanted to jump in here as well to say that just because the MP is/was lying to their spouse does not mean they were/are lying to everyone else.

 

I can say that was the case in my situation. I completely admit I was lying to my husband but I never lied to my AP. The point of the affair was to be completely me, not the person I had adapted to be. I could allow all sides of myself to be present with my AP, try them on, see how it felt, without fear of disappointment or condemnation. Having grown up with my husband, at at the ages we were, I had adapted and compartmentalized pieces of myself to make the relationship continue to work. But it had almost always had a fractured layout because I couldn't be all of me. I had recognized that very early on but didn't have the maturity or understanding of what that meant. It just seemed that I was one person with some friends, one person with him, and one person with others.

 

What the affair became was a catalyst to finally stop fracturing myself and be fully me, the good, the bad and the ugly. And be vulnerable enough to own it and be it.

 

So not the best way to go about doing it but it was a turning point for myself to be authentically me and not be apologetic about it. That I could have this very sexual side and not have to minimize or diminish it, to be the sweet person, to be the person who stopped settling to make others happy.

 

Again not the vehicle ultimately the best result.

 

And for my AP, no I don't believe he lied to me. I knew the one time they had sex, knew they hadn't after that (and YES it was confirmed blah blah blah ) But whether or not, especially people who have not been in an affair can understand, the point of the affair was to be brutally honest with each other.

 

I also have to note, while now having married the man, he is a HORRIBLY liar. His approach is more lies of omission than straight out lies. And these are little things like, I thought you said you were leaving work 30 minutes ago, etc. I am a far more skilled liar. I can lie well. I have a tendency to want to hide things that make me uncomfortable. I actually have a far greater concern that I would be more likely to start the slippery slope (not into an affair) into compartmentalizing, conflict avoiding, and fracturing myself, than I am about him. So I am very focused on addressing every trigger that pushes me into the old coping mechanisms and to address everything that is uncomfortable. As well as getting out of my "victim/martyr" mentality.

 

And we have both learned with the affair, how complete transparency is the best approach and while short term may be uncomfortable it is ultimately so much easier. So we practice complete transparency and no longer living fractured lives. We also address the habit/tendency to "tally" against the other person. We are very focused and committed every day as being a team. Equal partners, equal say.

[Got it]

Forgive me, but I'm confused/curious why you still relate to being the OW considering your years of being happily married, and why you chose your username. Seems to me, that you have a legitimate relationship (regardless of the beginnings) and I'm curious of your stance. Will you always identify as the OW/mistress? Seems odd.

 

I know for myself it is only on these boards where that moniker is used. It is not necessarily something I wear like a scarlet letter everyday. But it is also there and a known part of our relationship so, at times with his ex wife, etc. that piece is not forgotten.

 

And I don't want to forget that part of our history. I think to minimize it, to forget about it, would allow lessons to go unlearned, and expectations to be blurred. That is a very real piece of my history, a piece I own, an experience/lessons I don't want to forget.

 

So I don't want to speak for the OP, but that is why I continue to relate to the OW side. I also want to express my experience and that it isn't always similar as many on the other side want to say. Just like I don't think a Married person can/should speak for the OP side of things, nor do I think the BS should speak for the OP or WS' side. They are experiences not experienced. Just like I don't feel the MS/OP can speak for the BS.

[Redheaded Mistress]

I read your post, and ther eis something very telling about it.

 

You say that you are both honst people, and that you work ver hard to always be honest (exepting "white lies") about major things with each other, because your relationship means so much to the both of you.

 

On its face, that sounds really great, but consider this.Truly honest people don't have to put in an effort to not lie, they don't have to try so hard. It's just who they are, and it comes naturally with no little to no effort or even conscious thought about it.

 

I was more meaning that we put a lot of effort in our relationship, which includes being very honest.

 

That said, I guess this is an "agree to disagree" thing. I think to be truly honest about everything, it isn't as easy as it sounds. It's a lot easier when somebody says or does something that kind of hits you the wrong way, or if you have a problem, to just let it go or to keep it to yourself. It's really hard to pull somebody aside, maybe unintentionally hurt their feelings because they unintentionally hurt yours or because you have a need that isn't being met and then say "I have a problem."

 

I know the implication you're making is that if we find it hard to do this, then we must not naturally be honest people like I said we were, but that's not true... Being honest isn't always the easiest thing to do.

[Redheaded Mistress]

Forgive me, but I'm confused/curious why you still relate to being the OW considering your years of being happily married, and why you chose your username. Seems to me, that you have a legitimate relationship (regardless of the beginnings) and I'm curious of your stance. Will you always identify as the OW/mistress? Seems odd.

 

I don't identify as the OW/mistress at all now. I didn't even really identify with it then. During our affair, very quickly ours was pretty much the primary relationship.

 

The username is 100% because I literally couldn't think of anything else to call myself because I suck at creating usernames. I figured I lurked here the most, by default I would probably post here the most, and I just kind of defaulted to the username.

 

If I wasn't such a drag at thinking of clever names, I'd have probably picked something else. But when you see somebody on forums who's username is, like, their first name and a bunch of numbers... That's how I roll. For anonymity reasons, I felt like I had to skip that here.

[gettingstronger]

It was interesting to me that husband became a huge liar during his A-not just to me but to pretty much everyone- lied about the stupidest things- the size of our ski house and other details that just don't matter- I asked him why he did this and he said, he became so use to lying that it spilled over in to every situation- he had to lie to me and others about what he did/where he went on business trips, who was on the phone, etc...

 

It was all so odd because he always valued honesty so the fact he became such a liar was a real surprise-

 

As far as having to work on being honest- yes, what once came naturally for him is now something he has to be mindful of-just one of the many damages he did to himself by letting his integrity slip and have an affair-

[Got it]

It was interesting to me that husband became a huge liar during his A-not just to me but to pretty much everyone- lied about the stupidest things- the size of our ski house and other details that just don't matter- I asked him why he did this and he said, he became so use to lying that it spilled over in to every situation- he had to lie to me and others about what he did/where he went on business trips, who was on the phone, etc...

 

It was all so odd because he always valued honesty so the fact he became such a liar was a real surprise-

 

As far as having to work on being honest- yes, what once came naturally for him is now something he has to be mindful of-just one of the many damages he did to himself by letting his integrity slip and have an affair-

 

I don't see one just falls into lying and an affair. The lying is a slippery slope to the affair. It usually stems from conflict avoiding, passive agressiveness, codependency, etc. You pick up lying for a multitude of reasons as a coping mechanism. And most people lie to some extent. I believe a study done recently showed that the average person lies multiple times a day. We tell "white lies" for societal reasons and ease. We tell people what they want to hear.

 

It is when lying, omissions, etc. are then used for other reasons and can continue to be a "go to" coping mechanism.

 

I think it is quite the anomaly that one is 100% honest, transparent, and forthright one day and then lying and in an affair the next. There is a long road to get there.

[gettingstronger]

Just sharing my experience , that's all. My husband said he went from ankle deep to over his head in no time. Not sure what no time means but I do know he said once he crossed that line and let his integrity slip, the rest just followed. It's that part of him that he lost, his integrity that's hard on him. He feels like he will never shake the feeling of knowing he was capable of such an awful thing.

[snappytomcat]

thank you red headed mistress for answering my question

im happy its worked out for you.

ive always liked my friend I was speaking of in my question to you,but it wasn't until I found out about my husbands cheating,that she and I have become very close,and I never would have thought that she would become a source of healing for me,as she is on the other side of an affair,and I never felt like I wanted to talk to anyone about it,but she was easy to talk to,and so helpful.

 

 

I don't like to judge anyone,we all make mistakes,if you read my back stories I have even talked about being an ow at one point,but I was only 16,and he was 28 so I was just a child and he did take advantage,but he said many of the things that mm say,that he was sleeping in separate room,never had sex etc etc,lo and behold about 7 months after we began dating,guess who became preganant?his wife he never had sex with,i felt horrible,she was nice,beautiful she looked like snow white,i was nice looking,but she was a woman I never understood why he could cheat on such a beautiful kind person,i still feel bad to this day its been about 26 years now,but that's what I thought when my hubby was cheating to,im kind,beautiful I m giving,and his xow well she wasn't any of those things

[whatatangledweb]

I understand what you mean Redheaded Mistress. When we begin a second marriage we take the extra effort to not make the same mistakes we make in the first one. We see the things that went wrong and we don't want them to happen again.

 

My husband lied to me during his affair and then he did tickle truth for a while. He is not normally a person who lies. Since then I have not caught him in any lies and I don't believe he lies to me any more. So I understand when someone says he doesn't lie to me.

 

People change, sometimes for the better and some times for the worse. You can be a better spouse in a second marriage. As APs ,they lie to someone but it doesn't mean they lie to everyone. Though it does happen some times.

 

I believe people react so strongly when an OW/FOW says he doesn't lie to me is they are looking at what happened in their own lives. My husband lied and mislied his OW and me. That doesn't mean it happens to everyone. I believe you when you say he doesn't.

Edited October 30, 2014 by whatatangledweb
spelling

[Got it]

Just sharing my experience , that's all. My husband said he went from ankle deep to over his head in no time. Not sure what no time means but I do know he said once he crossed that line and let his integrity slip, the rest just followed. It's that part of him that he lost, his integrity that's hard on him. He feels like he will never shake the feeling of knowing he was capable of such an awful thing.

 

Gettingstronger - I am not disagreeing with you or trying to minimize what you are saying at all. I guess what I am saying, the steps that get there, the beginning of the slippery slope are SO crucial for people to recognize. I guess I get a little concerned when people think that it "just happened", that it was this black and white thing, because what they aren't necessarily is the little steps, thinking processing, justifications that started that process. So it because almost like a dry drunk that is thinking they just won't drink again when there is so much more that needs to be focused on and resolved to try overcome it.

 

That was the biggest eye opener for me. How much was on that slippery slope that had become from a very young age a coping thinking style and self justification that started and proceeded me on that path. It was very humbling to look back and see "cake eating" mentality at 21 that I didn't realize I had then. It was along the lines of realizing that my boyfriend/husband was a good logic pick for a husband so I wanted to freeze him, put him on a shelf and come back and take him off. I didn't realize what a major red flag this was and no one counseled me on it. There are so many things I look back now and realize were a big deal but I really didn't know better and didn't know to know better. And since I didn't grow up with a good example it was a lot of floundering around.

 

No excuse but the lessons I learned looking back over my late teen and 20's were eye opening to see where I got today. Thinking I had so much of my life together and realizing I hadn't even scratched the surface.

 

So, sorry, going off on a tangent, but that is more of what I was meaning.

[cocorico]

I understand what you mean Redheaded Mistress. When we begin a second marriage we take the extra effort to not make the same mistakes we make in the first one. We see the things that went wrong and we don't want them to happen again.

 

My husband lied to me during his affair and then he did tickle truth for a while. He is not normally a person who lies. Since then I have not caught him in any lies and I don't believe he lies to me any more. So I understand when someone says he doesn't lie to me.

 

People change, sometimes for the better and some times for the worse. You can be a better spouse in a second marriage. As APs ,they lie to someone but it doesn't mean they lie to everyone. Though it does happen some times.

 

I believe people react so strongly when an OW/FOW says he doesn't lie to me is they are looking at what happened in their own lives. My husband lied and mislied his OW and me. That doesn't mean it happens to everyone. I believe you when you say he doesn't.

 

I think for my H and me, we'd both seen how badly R's can go wrong in our first Ms, and we are both determined not to allow that to happen in our M. Both of us kind of fell into M the first time round, being young and foolish, but now we are conscious of making choices and acting with agency to shape our lives and our R. So this post really resonated with me.

[Sub]

I think it is quite the anomaly that one is 100% honest, transparent, and forthright one day and then lying and in an affair the next. There is a long road to get there.

 

I've never considered this with my WW. She was a brutally honest person pre-A, as far as I knew. Nothing was held back, she wore her emotions and feelings on her sleeve. She was honest about her feelings re: our M, which is why in retrospect the A wasn't a complete shock. But the one thing I've wrestled with is the sudden shift in honesty, and partially considered the influence of people who enabled/promoted the lying during the A(the OM and a work friend). Based on the above, maybe it wasn't as sudden as I think.