More clarity

[jj33]

I told MM i couldnt get involved with him again unless he was leaving and of course he is not (despite many reasons why an outsider might think he would have left years ago...) so I suggested that this had nowhere to go but we should be happy that we remain on such good terms. But its quite sad as there is so much between us and nowhere for it to go.

 

I know it was the right thing to do. I am stunned that he wanted to resume things. Apparently because the feelings remained strong he thought we could jump right back in where we left off.

 

I am numb. I had to do it. I know it was the right thing for me. I cant just see him until i meet someone else. Its not good for me. But I am still numb. And I cant believe I actually said it out loud. To him. He was crushed. I dont know what to think. I thought it had been over for ages. At least now we are both on the same page.

[phoenixrising]

... I commend you for following through - I know how difficult it is, and understand the numbness you are feeling. I did the same thing two months ago, and am still working through the feelings, which are hurt, sadness, confusion... and at the same time compassion and understanding.

 

We see each other for work every few months... this happened last week. We talked, jI just tried to get some closure. It was sad, really... but here's what helped me. I was so confused that he could treat me with such love over the years, but stay married. But the light finally went on - he prioritized me, but not 'us' as a relationship. And I think he prioritizes his marriage relationship... but not his wife as a woman. So I'm finally working through the confusion and working toward acceptance.

 

Keep writing, and stay strong. You deserve so much more than moments stolen from someone else's husband...

[jj33]

Thanks Phoenix. You are exactly right. That is why we split up. After everything I am floored that he would even think that I would enter the A again. I have told him before that I couldnt have an affair again. And he said he couldnt either. And we had the NC over the summer... I dont get it.

 

It was just really sad to say it in person. It was so wonderful to see him outside of work. Like old times. And so sad to see him looking so crushed. But I do deserve more. And I dont want to be in a position where I am hoping someone will give up their loyalty to the institution regardless of their relationship with the person. Its not nice.

[wildsoul]

After everything I am floored that he would even think that I would enter the A again.

Keep in mind that he hasn't been doing the soul searching, gut wrenching work on ending the affair like you have. You've come a long way baby!

 

You may be numb now, and will most likely go thru another round of letting go at a deeper level. But know this: you're in a good position, better than him. He's stuck in the same old stuckness as before: wanting what he can't have (you) because it means giving up other important things in his life. For awhile, he could have both, now you've squashed that option and he is going to feel really stuck. But you? The world is your oyster! On the other side of your pain is freedom. There is no lock on your cage.

[Agent_99]

jj~ I'm sorry, I'm sure that it was very hard to tell him no like that, but at the same time it must be very freeing to make it clear where you stand with him.

 

Just take a little extra time for yourself right now. You have had some time of NC and LC, so keep your emotional space. I can only imagine how hard it was to hurt him like that. (thinking of MW in my situation)

 

BUT you do deserve better. You will find better too.

 

big hugs!!

 

~99

[smile711]

jj-I am in awe of your ability to do that! I am working so hard to get to that point and your story inspires me to work even harder to get what I deserve in life. One day at a time-you are in my thoughts!

[jj33]

Thanks you all really helped me. It was shocking that he could think that after everything that somehow the passage of time meant the slate was clean. There are mitigating factors but still nothing can mitigate the pain of the past year since it ended.

 

Reading some of the threads really helped me. Seeing how destructive it is to stay in it to win it, because lets face it, if you are in love and you hope some day he will "choose you" then that is what you are doing. And that is what I would have been doing.

 

I feel fortunate that he would not lie to me on that point just to get me back in his bed. Others of you have not been as lucky.

 

And WS you are of course right he has a lot of work to do. I was carrying the pain for both of us. As long as I was expressing the pain he knew that he still had a chance. When I stopped expressing the pain, he thought things had calmed down enough that it was safe to try again. Now he knows that is not the case. He has to face the fact that things arent the way that they were. I am still in his life, but not in the same way. And he cant swan in and out at leisure. We will both be at the same place tonite and we have to meet on something tomorrow so I will see him which is good. Perhaps it will give us a chance to make things OK a little bit. That or it will hit home even more for him.

 

I didnt do it to force him to make a choice. I did it for me. It would be crazy for him to "leave for me" at this point. We havent been together in a long time. But if you look at what happens with other people, like WS she had the courage to say go away if you arent getting a divorce. And he was ready to leave and so he did.

 

I dont know. I know it was the right thing. Its just bizarre. Its like they are relying on the OW not to want that much for herself or to love them so much that she would give up so much just to be with them. I realize there are some people who are happy with a casual affair but that doesnt work for me. I thought it took a lot of nerve to just pop back in like nothing had happened knowing how I felt about things.

[jj33]

I am often slow to process things but I am really annoyed about this. Who does he think he is just waltzing back in like i would be happy to accept his crumbs after everything? I just dont know what planet he lives on. Yes we are happy together yes we have a great time together. But who cares. I made myself perfectly clear months ago. After all the bloodshed between us he is lucky I speak to him. To come back like this is... offering nothing, its mindboggling.

[NewSunrise]

I am often slow to process things but I am really annoyed about this. Who does he think he is just waltzing back in like i would be happy to accept his crumbs after everything? I just dont know what planet he lives on. Yes we are happy together yes we have a great time together. But who cares. I made myself perfectly clear months ago. After all the bloodshed between us he is lucky I speak to him. To come back like this is... offering nothing, its mindboggling.

Because you have allowed him in the past simply by being in an affair with him.

 

When MM/MW enters an A, it's pretty much a "condition" placed on the OP to not expect more than for what it is. A warning sign like the fine print on a contract. His priority will still be the M, not the A. So what the OP gets is pretty much whatever he's willing to dish out under the radar. For some MM/MW, they probably think like you that you should be lucky he has given you what you needed that you couldn't get from anyone who wasn't married? They won't come out and say it, no more than you coming out to tell him he's lucky you're even speaking to him.

 

He hasn't gotten the clarity that you have. You're now on a different chapter.

[jj33]

Because you have allowed him in the past simply by being in an affair with him.

 

When MM/MW enters an A, it's pretty much a "condition" placed on the OP to not expect more than for what it is. A warning sign like the fine print on a contract. His priority will still be the M, not the A. So what the OP gets is pretty much whatever he's willing to dish out under the radar. For some MM/MW, they probably think like you that you should be lucky he has given you what you needed that you couldn't get from anyone who wasn't married? They won't come out and say it, no more than you coming out to tell him he's lucky you're even speaking to him.

 

He hasn't gotten the clarity that you have. You're now on a different chapter.

 

I think you mean think like he does that he thinks i am lucky ?

 

I did tell him he is lucky I still speak to him. In a nice tone of voice but I did say it. I said it all. Its so insulting that he didnt even really "try" he just said it the same way someone would say would you like more coffee.

 

Not that it would make a difference but at least if the attempt had been more heartfelt it wouldnt have felt so demeaning. I cant stop thinking about the sex is not what every girl longs to hear...

 

Let this be a warning to those of you who are tempted to go back. It doesnt matter what they say. If they arent in the process of leaving you dont want to stay and continue to "audition". Men who ply you with BS just to get you back into bed dont love you and dont respect you. They are using you end of story.

 

The thought of how broken I felt after the A was over and for so long after is enough to keep me away no matter what he says or does (short of a divorce).

 

But it still hurts. It was a setback. I thought we had it under control. And now I know we dont.

[NewSunrise]

I think you mean think like he does that he thinks i am lucky ?

Unfortunately, yes, jj.

I did tell him he is lucky I still speak to him. In a nice tone of voice but I did say it. I said it all.

Your next thought of question might be, how would he have reacted if you weren't so nice and screamed it into his face? Men are men. They're less expressive with words than women. He probably would have just stood there and say "l'm sorry..."

 

Chances are, he already know you were hurting, and that the A has come to an end and saw no point.

Not that it would make a difference but at least if the attempt had been more heartfelt it wouldnt have felt so demeaning

Any affair is demeaning on both sides, for the OP and the BS.

Let this be a warning to those of you who are tempted to go back. It doesnt matter what they say. If they arent in the process of leaving you dont want to stay and continue to "audition".

It should be a red flag for any OP when they get involve with MP. Unfortunaley, OPs who fall for MP get involve because they have needs that are not being fulfilled equally as MP's needs are not being fulfilled by their BS.

 

Your MM never had any respect for his W and the M, why would it be any different with you?

 

JJ, you're human. You're entitled to make mistakes. You realize that now. The hurt and pain you are experiencing are no different than what BS feel when they discover the A. I doubt the MM will succumb to the notion of having made a mistake. He got away with this A. There will be others. Sorry JJ.

 

Consider yourself ahead of the game. This is the closure you needed. There is life after an A. As a former BS, I can tell you that it is so much more freeing and rewarding. I'm free and in love again with an awesome man who treats me like gold.

 

In order for you to see the light, you had to be dragged into a dungeon in order to know there is light. Otherwise, how else would you know the difference?

[jj33]

There is no BS in this story. The MM and the W have an agreement do what you will to fulfill certain personal needs but show up and dont do anything to jeoparidize the institution - nothing that would stop you from making mandatory appearances.

 

That is why we never had to have stolen moments (hours) we had stolen overnights. As long as he was there for official, social and family functions the rest of his time was his own.

[NewSunrise]

There is no BS in this story. The MM and the W have an agreement do what you will to fulfill certain personal needs but show up and dont do anything to jeoparidize the institution - nothing that would stop you from making mandatory appearances.

 

That is why we never had to have stolen moments (hours) we had stolen overnights. As long as he was there for official, social and family functions the rest of his time was his own.

What's the difference? Married is married is it not?

 

You refer to him as MM. He hasn't left the W. And whether or not they don't want to "jepardize" the institution because of finances or status whatever, you're still the OW.

 

JJ, reread this part you wrote...

That is why we never had to have stolen moments (hours) we had stolen overnights. As long as he was there for official, social and family functions the rest of his time was his own.

How does this make you feel? Greatful? Proud? What do you do before and during his official, social and family functions?

 

Where would you like to be 6 months or a year from now?

[jj33]

New Sunrise excuse me if I was defensive. Its always been important to me that I was not engaged in anyone's betrayal in terms of the marriage. The fact that i betrayed myself is another story. The usual things that apply in an A in terms of betrayal of a spouse dont apply. But I get your point. He is doing what he needs to do to meet his needs (they both are). And though the PA has been over for more than a year because I deal with him on a regular basis its still been in my face.

 

I had thought it was finally behind us and now its not. Hes still trying to sneak back in. But you are right telling him on no uncertain terms what I want for myself (an open and loving relationshp with no restrictions) is very freeing. Its up to him to do what he wants to with the information. After months of ambiguity and not wanting to hurt his feelings etc I have finally been clear in person. I have been clear in emails etc before but this time I was clear in person.

 

Thanks for your responses.

[NewSunrise]

JJ-

Didn't see your reply as defensive at all.

 

And though the PA has been over for more than a year because I deal with him on a regular basis its still been in my face.

So you're not over him emotionally.

 

My sister had an A withone of her superiors. They work together and still do. They planned a future together which was to divorce their respected spouse. My sister did. He didn't. He kept coming up with excuses why he couldn't. They both have children. As my sister demanded and expected more, he suddenly became ambiguous and grew distant. She finally decided it was over. But he found another OW in no time. That was very painful for her. Took her a few months to get over that. She went back into the dating scene immediately. Kissed a couple of frogs. The third frog ended up being her prince charming who treats her like gold.

 

His betrayal was not enough to warrant her to leave her job. Her desk is feet away from his office. How she mustered to get through each day she went to work is beyond me. She decided to look at him in a different light---a despicable low life liar. Now, she looks at him with "eeeeeww---what the hell did I ever saw in him?" She treats him no different than the next boss.

 

The fact that i betrayed myself is another story.

It all comes down to choices. You gotta believe you deserve better than long stolen overnights after his official, family, social events are fulfilled or however you were scheduled into his appointments.

 

Until you believe you deserve better, you will be stuck in the "if only if" stage.

[jj33]

?? Maybe we are talking at cross purposes. The PA has been over for more than a year (no stolen anythings) and I told him I will never go back to that... That I wont be involved with him while he is married. So Im not sure what you mean. If I didnt think I deserved more I would still be in it but I am not.

 

My concern is the working relationship. I had hoped he meant it when he said he was over me the fact that he tried to reignite it means that our business relationship may not be as secure as I thought it was.

 

We are on the brink of a major global recession. And he has to date been a great business ally. I am not going back to the A under any circumstances but want to handle this correctly. My only "if only" is if only he would stop raising the past and just carry on with the business relationship. In these uncertain times I like knowing I can count on my allies without having to worry about past issues rearing their ugly heads.

[NewSunrise]

Unless all this happened awhile ago than I apologize if I missed it. But, if not and still going on, I don't think IMO, we are talking cross purposes. Your comment here says it all.

and I told him I will never go back to that... That I wont be involved with him while he is married.

You're not over the guy. You know why? Because YOU haven't decided it's over. The fact that YOU're giving him a "prerequisite" in order for you to even consider "going back" speaks loud and clear.

 

This time I'm going to jump on you.

 

You're being miss rosy picking petal. You want him. You don't want him. You do want him but only if he leaves the marriage. But I really don't want him because he stll married. I want him. But I don't want him....yada-yada.

 

You want clarity or claim you have clarity. But you don't. As long as there is an ultimatum on him, you don't have clarity. The only clarity is that he has no intention of leaving his M.

 

Here's another clarity you've made clear:

If I didnt think I deserved more I would still be in it but I am not.

If you think you deserved more, you wouldn't be giving this MM an ultimatum to leave his M and wait around "to see" if he will, much less get involved with one.

 

How much of a job security do you have without this MM? Does he control you position at this firm?

[jj33]

I didnt give him an ultimatum. We havent been involved in over a year. I am not waiting around for anything. I know you mean well and I appreciate your comments and your response but your concerns are misplaced. 6 months ago they would not have been but now they are.

 

What I told him was that my goals for myself have changed and if we got involved again I would want him to leave and I dont ever want to be in a situation where I want someone to end their marriage. He didnt take it as an ulimtatum and I didnt mean it as one. And he knows that. He knows I understand that he is not looking to change his life. He likes his life as it is despite the fact that its lacking in certain respects in terms of intimacy both physical and emotional. So what I was telling him and what he took from it was that there is no way we can ever be involved with each other ever again. I thought he knew that Apparently he didnt. I was exceptionally clear this time. And he heard me. It was sad. More sad for him than me but its not something that can be fixed. I dont want to be involved with someone who is married and he doesnt want to change his life. He is not a bad man. He didnt cheat in the conventional sense if he hadnt fallen in love with me his actions were ok within the bounds of his marriage. So I dont blame him I blame myself for miscalculating my ability to be happy in that sort of situation.

 

And no I didnt want him to end his marriage almost 2 years ago when we were involved. I went into it eyes wide open. And the job security isnt an issue. The reasons are not something that I want to discuss in detail on a public forum.

 

So if you want to berate me for accepting less than I should have some years ok I understand that. But that is the past. It was a very complicated time in my life and now that I am over alot of the hurt, I dont regret it. He is a good man and we shared something special. But it no longer works for me.

[jj33]

And just to add if he were to to leave (which i cant ever ever imagine he would) we would have to start at ground zero. We dont have the same relationship we once did.

 

I am realistic to know that a relationship that fills the gaps in a very long marriage is very different than a real relationship. Yes we were close etc but there is no comparison. He knows that too. My life is worlds away from his. If the marriage ever ended, again not something I can ever imagine, and if I were single and if I were inclined to try anew, I dont even know if it would work for us. So my eyes are wide wide open.

 

You sound like you are expecting me to hate him. Theres no reason to hate him. He was always honest with me about the parameters of the relationship. And about his priorities.

 

I understand you were in a marriage where you were cheated on. this is a different situation. What we shared filled a gap in his marriage. It was never meant to replace the marriage. Its how they cope and their choices for doing that are their own. It worked for me for a period of time and then it didnt.

 

I dont doubt he will have another A in time. Its what he does. It doesnt diminish what we shared but that is in the past. I will always have a soft spot for him in my heart. But that is a lot different from "waiting" or issuing an ultimatum.

[NewSunrise]

Sorry you took offense. Merely replying what you've written as to be of "current events". You ended the PA a year ago. But you also write a lot of "what ifs" or "ifs" in between what you deem to be a clarity.

 

If you reread your most recent posts:

What I told him was that my goals for myself have changed and if we got involved again I would want him to leave and I dont ever want to be in a situation where I want someone to end their marriage.

 

And just to add if he were to to leave (which i cant ever ever imagine he would) we would have to start at ground zero. We dont have the same relationship we once did.

So based on your two posts, you are keeping the door open?

 

Do you see the see-saw double talk and indecisiveness you project? You want us to believe you're over the guy, but in reality you haven't yet. Granted, you're working through an emotional process. That's one thing. But to keep insisting that what's happened in the past is past. Yet you keep posting in the present a lot of "what ifs" and "ifs" added into your replies says a lot more than what you are willing to admit. And granted, if the guy DID leave his M, great. You two might be one of few that might make it as some have.

 

And if you've read many of my replies to posters on this particular subject or any topics, my experience of being "cheated on" has no bearing in promoting "hatred" towards the guilty or particular side of the fence.

 

BTW, "conventional or non-conventional cheating" is cheating no matter how you slice it.

 

I will always have a soft spot for him in my heart. But that is a lot different from "waiting" or issuing an ultimatum.

Perhaps, "ultimatum" may have been inappropriate to use. "Condition" might be more appropriate.

 

 

Based on your replies worth repeating, do you see the "condition" in your position with regards to him or you?

1. And just to add if he were to to leave (which i cant ever ever imagine he would) we would have to start at ground zero.

2. What I told him was that my goals for myself have changed and if we got involved again I would want him to leave and I dont ever want to be in a situation where I want someone to end their marriage.

So exactly what IS your position? Door shut? Door open? Door half-way open? Door half-way shut?

[jj33]

The door is shut. He is married. If he were ever single whihc I dont expect to happen in my lifetime, then if I were single and available and had any remote interest at that point I would consider it then. But as he is married the door is shut.

[NewSunrise]

The door is shut. He is married. If he were ever single whihc I dont expect to happen in my lifetime, then if I were single and available and had any remote interest at that point I would consider it then. But as he is married the door is shut.

There you go again....the "if", double talk part.

 

So in other words, IF he decides to leave his M in YOUR life time, and IF he becamel "single" and you have any remote interest, YOU "might" consider allowing him back in? Until Mr. Right, Second Runner-Up comes along, you'll keep your "options" open for this MM so to speak.

 

The door is "not shut". It's half open/shut at your choosing and leisure. I think as long as you are in each other's face at work, your emotion for this MM will not go away any time soon. And IMO, that's probably why you are having a tougher time emotionally detaching yourself from him. And IMO, just as long as he "sees you", he will be reminded of what he would missing/losing while he choose to be M. I think to some extent, it might actually give you a sense of satisfaction, kinda like rubbing in your face, for a lack of better term. A "look but don't touch" deal. And I bet you're doing everything to make him suffer...:)

 

Do you even see the dilemma you've chosen to put yourself in and how contadictory you come across?

[jj33]

[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Thanks NS. You are right I do still have feelings for him. But they are not the same of if oh it’s so sad that he’s married. I used to have those feelings. Now its more like hes married. We shared something special we both learned from it. He is a great guy and yes I am fond of him but not in that swoony longing way. It’s the way you would care for a close friend or a cousin. [/FONT][/sIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]It took me a long time to accept that he was just filling in gaps. And he has even admitted to being a cake eater. The reality of that finally settled in over the past 3 months. And so I don’t look at him as my future. Someone else would not be a runner up. He isn’t the be all and end all I thought he was, for many reasons. [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]When I said if this and if that, it’s not that I am sitting here imposing conditions on him, or waiting for him to comply with any conditions. He is very very happy with his life. It wouldnt work for me but it does for him and for W. The M is at the core of his identity. But when I said if he were single (its just so unthinkable I didn’t mean that I want him to be) its hard to imagine how we would get back to a place where a romantic relationship would work. We are very far from that now. [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Honestly I think his little attempt the other night was ego. He has had other OWs in the past and I have no doubt he will again in the future. Its part of his life. But he is used to having what he wants when he wants it and calling the shots. He is confused by the fact that I have no agenda other than to get on with my life and meet someone with whom I can have a whole relationship. He wants the ego stroking that he can just snap his fingers and I will say oh sure I could never resist you. I was really insulted the the other night. It seemed so disrespectful. But now I am not. That is where he is and its just a reflection on him. It has nothing to do with me unless I let it. [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]I don’t want him to suffer or to look at me and see what he has missed. He appreciates me professionally and we look out for each other and that is great. Does it keep the good feelings for each other alive? Sure but that is the risk when you get involved with someone you deal with professionally. [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]I am not someone who wants attention from men just for the sake of it or to punish them. If a relationship isn’t going anywhere I dont want the attention. And this isn’t going anywhere so the idea that he would be in a look but don’t touch situation or see what he is missing is not something I want. I want him to be happy and I want to be happy. But we dont want the same thing from a personal relationshp so we wont find our romantic happiness together. [/sIZE][/FONT]

[Ronni_W]

The door is shut. He is married. If he were ever single whihc I dont expect to happen in my lifetime, then if I were single and available and had any remote interest at that point I would consider it then. But as he is married the door is shut.

Hi JJ.

That makes total sense (to me.) It's sort of the same as "if I had a million dollars"...but I don't so nothing related to that thought is an option yet...but IF I did, then I would...

My guess is that most people, if not all, engage in some of that. No harm, no foul as long as we know what's what, what's real and what's fantasy.

 

The difficulty might be, though, that he senses some of your thoughts (so to speak)...the ones that say, "I would if"...but he's not also getting that those thoughts belong to your fantasy-thinking and not to your thoughts about what you want for yourself, in reality (if that makes sense?)

 

It might just be that he will continue to misinterpret your words and actions, as long as part of you also holds "I would if"-type of sentiments. And it might just be that he will continue to try to "win you back" or "wear you down" (however he is looking at it), while those sentiments still exist within you.

 

I wouldn't see it as being about the business relationship...just that the constant contact BECAUSE OF your professional connection means that he is in constant contact with the, er, 'vibration' of those sentiments...so he will likely continue to act/react to them. Perhaps?

 

Wishing you a happy weekend

Ronni

[jj33]

Hi JJ.

That makes total sense (to me.) It's sort of the same as "if I had a million dollars"...but I don't so nothing related to that thought is an option yet...but IF I did, then I would...

Ronni

 

Thats exactly what it is. I have gotten to the point where I cant worry about how he takes it. He has nothing to offer me in terms of a romantic relationship so he really shouldnt even ask. I am not going back to that situation. It was awful.

 

If his ego needs to ask and cajole he can do that. I wish he wouldnt, and told him to never ever ask again, but its a free world. I am not like those scheming manipulative women he is used to where every action is intended to provoke a reaction. He just cant wrap his head around that. Much as he knows it, it just doesnt make sense to him. I pity him sometimes. He just doesnt get so much.

 

Have a great weekend too