Old School vs New School

[gettingstronger]

Something in another thread caught my eye-

The OP was saying many of us are old school in our ideas of marriage, etc..

She was in her 30's

Which in turn had another poster comment on affairs being old school

 

It made me think- are affairs old school?

In these days were we are much more accepting of sexuality and relationships- if one craves attention outside of marriage why not discuss an open relationship, poly or even swinging-

With men and women being more partners in a marriage than ever before with women entering the workforce and men being more involved with their kids- why the secrets- why not tell your spouse you are having (or wanting) to have sex or a relationship with someone else-why not give them that option?

 

So, if we are higher evolved or think we are- why wouldn't that higher state of being involve some honesty?

 

I put this here instead of GRD because I did discuss this tonight with my husband and do know why this did not happen in our case, but I will hold that for a bit as to not taint others answers

 

Thoughts-

[darkbloom]

I don't think its "old school" to be traditionally married. If you and your partner make an informed decison together to be trustworthy, faithful and loyal then it is societally 'normal.' I have no problem with this.

 

I also think that we should consider NOT being married normal. Same thing for open marriages, swingers, etc. As long as everyone is able to make an informed decision based off the facts of their situation.

 

It's the lying that is the problem. So many people on these forums try and justify their selfishness and betrayl by saying that cheating is normal. And everyone that feels hurt by an affair is stuck in "old school" thinking. No. We should place more value on honesty. We have made a lot of progress as a society in being more accepting of sexuality and of marriage. Why cant we make more progress in being honest?

[oldshirt]

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking. I think I have an idea but I'm not quite sure what you are getting at or what 'old school' means to you in terms of affairs.

 

 

I'll take a stab at what I think you are asking but you can correct me if I'm off base.

 

 

I am 51 years old. I was raised by a strict schoolmarm mother and a rigid conservative father in a tiny farming community a hour from the nearest city in the middle of the Midwest so I think I am as old school as one can get on these boards in this day and age. If I am not the oldest poster here, I am probably in the top ten.

 

 

But anyway, I may be old school and I may have some old fashioned beliefs and such, but I am also one of the folks you speak of in that I have broached the topic of open marriage/swinging etc and was very involved in the swinging lifestyle for several years.

 

 

Before the topic of swinging ever came up, we had been married ten years and had had a completely traditional marriage and two children before it was ever discussed.

 

 

When it was brought up however, it was never in terms of wanting to be with other people per se but rather to add another level of fun and excitement into our sexual dynamics as a couple.

 

 

I know that sounds like just a play on words but it really wasn't. While we were swinging, it was always about "us" as couple. Yes other people entered our marital bedroom figuratively speaking but we were always together as a couple and we always made love to each other as a couple - we just had other hands and tongues and bodies adding some more stimulation to the mix.

 

 

It never was a case of me wanting to be with another woman or her with another man. We wanted to be together as couple, we just enjoyed having some other people in bed with us now and then.

 

 

It's very hard to put into words and I know some people may get what I am saying and others will not. Sometimes explaining swinging in a monogamous world is like trying to explain colors to the blind.

 

 

That level of communication and expression worked for us. It does not work for everyone. I have seen a number of marriages implode and I have seen a number of couples torn apart and destroyed and I have seen others flourish.

 

 

Many couples were in their 40s after being married for 20 years and the kids are now grown. I've seen couples in their 60s tearing it up at swingers clubs and I have seen couples in their early 20s that seemed perfectly well adjusted and comfortable with it.

 

 

cont......

[gettingstronger]

I agree with both of you. I guess what I was trying to figure out was, if thinking infidelity is wrong is old school, why engage in it. If you truly feel that having a sex or relationship outside your marriage is OK, why not give your partner that option too.

 

It was just a thought that came up in another thread, but also a theme I see quite a bit. Marriage is outdated, monagomy is outdated, blah, blah, blah

 

If we have come so far in our understanding of sexuality and relationships, why hasn't honesty become part of that "enlightenment"

[oldshirt]

cont....

 

 

What I haven't really seen however is any kind of correlation one way or another between swinging and adultery.

 

 

I've seen swingers cheat. I've seen swingers marriages destroyed by adultery and betrayal just as sure as traditional marriages.

 

 

If someone believes that open marriage/swinging/polyamory will prevent cheating, then they must also believe that monogamy causes cheating.

 

 

Now that being said, open marriage/swinging/poly can do one thing and do it well. It can help address the yearning and urge for variety just for the sake of variety.

 

 

Every man has a deep primal drive for some extra (polygamy). A man will have a yearning for something different just for the sake of something different even if it is something less than what he has at home.

 

 

Every woman has a deep primal drive for something "better" (Hypergamy).

 

 

They may be perfectly satisfied with their partner as a person and a spouse but they are still instinctually driven to keep sow some oats with someone different. But they still want to remain married and still keep their current spouse. They don't want a replacement, they just want some strange periodically.

 

 

That yearning can build up like water building behind a dam. Sometimes if it isn't addressed it can either break the dam and pour out in an uncontrolled manner or it can back up and leak out into unexpected areas.

 

 

Swinging can help ease that pressure and express those urges in a controlled and consensual and nondestructive fashion.

 

 

Swinging does NOT treat marital problems and it does not help people that are fundamentally dissatisfied or frustrated with their spouse.

 

 

Swinging does NOT address or help people that have strong feelings for one specific other person.

 

 

It will not keep people from straying if they are of low moral character or are a selfish, self-indulgent and entitled person in general.

 

 

Swinging will not stop someone from falling in love with someone at the office or hooking up with some stud/hottie at the bar one night during a GNO if people are getting drunk and stupid.

 

 

"Enlightenment" doesn't eliminate bad behavior or bad character and much of adultery is about low character and bad behavior.

 

 

Someone can have the most open minded, enlightened spouse that is open to the possibility of consensual nonmonogamy, but if they themselves are a selfish, entitled narcissist, they will still cheat.

 

 

Ultimately cheating is a moral and behavior issue. It is not an enlightenment issue.

[oldshirt]

I agree with both of you. I guess what I was trying to figure out was, if thinking infidelity is wrong is old school, why engage in it. If you truly feel that having a sex or relationship outside your marriage is OK, why not give your partner that option too.

 

It was just a thought that came up in another thread, but also a theme I see quite a bit. Marriage is outdated, monagomy is outdated, blah, blah, blah

 

If we have come so far in our understanding of sexuality and relationships, why hasn't honesty become part of that "enlightenment"

 

 

 

We were crossposting at the same time and I got to rambling again.

 

 

The gist of the matter is adultery is a character and moral issue, it is not an enlightenment issue.

 

 

People cheat because they have character flaws, bad behavior and are selfish. It's not because they have rigid or outdated beliefs. ....and it's not because they have new age beliefs. It's because they are selfish and self indulgent.

 

 

I think people that think sex outside of marriage is ok and can have it's place, do discuss it and negotiate it and come up with agreements.

 

 

People that just want to have their cake, just grab it and scarf it down regardless of who it hurts and what kind of damage it causes.

 

 

Thinking infidelity is wrong is not old school and it is not outdated. It's practical. Infidelity causes pain, destruction and suffering. People think it's wrong because it IS wrong. That doesn't matter how old you are or when or where you grew up.

[gettingstronger]

Agreed! My husband tried for a quick second to pull the whole monagomy isn't natural thing. I shut it down quick with, well then don't be married AND being a liar isn't a normal thing either so what's your point.

 

We talked tonight on this. Basically, at the time he convinced himself what he was doing wasn't so bad but didn't want to tell me because the thought of me being with another man was too much. Such selfish, cowardly crap they talk themselves in to. And the realization afterward is brutal on them.

[Cephalopod]

The person in the other thread is a hairy bridge-dweller. She (or he) posted that thread for the sole sake of pushing buttons and getting a rise out of everyone.

 

Monogamous marriage is the norm. Period. If a person doesn't like the constraints of a traditional marriage, then that person doesn't need to be married. Period.

[HereNorThere]

If I've learned anything in my time on earth, it's that what people publicly state they believe doesn't really alter their behavior much. All of my "old school" religious relatives who preach the value of "traditional marriage" have just as many divorces, illegitimate children, skeletons in their closet, etc. as anyone else. The same "old school" "family values" politicians get caught tapping their foot under the bathroom stall at other men the same way the loud and proud hypersexual homosexual men do. They also have just as many problems with drugs, alcohol and everything else. The only difference is that they fall so much harder from grace because their hypocrisy is exposed when they get caught.

[sandylee1]

I agree with both of you. I guess what I was trying to figure out was, if thinking infidelity is wrong is old school, why engage in it. If you truly feel that having a sex or relationship outside your marriage is OK, why not give your partner that option too.

 

It was just a thought that came up in another thread, but also a theme I see quite a bit. Marriage is outdated, monagomy is outdated, blah, blah, blah

 

If we have come so far in our understanding of sexuality and relationships, why hasn't honesty become part of that "enlightenment"

 

I don't believe marriage is outdated as such, but cheating does seem to be on the increase. Even if I wanted to go out there and sleep with another man, I'd never mention it to my H because he would not take kindly to it. Just the same as if he said it to me.

 

People don't give their spouse the option because in most cases , they don't want them sleeping with someone else. The times I've seen a cheater get cheated on and they are besides themselves, I just think who are you to talk when you did just that. Or where a WS says to the VS during reconciliation that they themselves wouldn't reconcile if the shoe was on the other foot. It's selfishness and if you give your spouse the heads up and they know about it, it takes away that excitement and fun.

 

I also think that if either of us had a sexual relationship with another person , we could form a deep connection with them and want to be with that person full time. I'm not naive to think that my H couldn't get a better woman than me or indeed that I could get a better man than him. There's always better out there, so I'm careful not to get tempted by it. This would just distabilise our children's home security all for the sake of fun and it's not worth it to me.

[fireflywy]

Old School (hidden affairs), New School (open marriage) I guess I'm just REALLY old fashioned in saying "no way no how." It kind of frightens me that these conversations of open marriage/swinging and affairs/cheating seem to be slowly increasing and male polygamy becomes a justification for hypergamy in what seems like a stupid "You Only Live Once" attitude and battle of the sexes to say you got yours on your deathbed when no one will really care at that point.

 

There has to be more to existence then just the pursuit of physical pleasures and self gratification.

 

Almost makes me fearful to trust that ANYONE will ever be faithful and monogamous in a relationship again.

 

I hope someday, that this ever tilting pendulum toward OS and NS actions and justifications doesn't swing that way too much longer and that the world returns to making reality what old fashioned was SUPPOSED to be (and yes I know this has always happened so that's why I stressed what was supposed to be.)

 

I hope I don't sound judgmental as that wasn't my intent and people may chose what they chose to be happy, I just don't ever want to be a victim of it if a partner ever says "Why not? Others do it? It's all accepted now so I'm doing/did nothing wrong to you in seeking it!"

 

 

Sigh

Edited August 5, 2015 by fireflywy

[sandylee1]

I just don't ever want to be a victim of it if a partner ever says "Why not? Others do it? It's all accepted now so I'm doing/did nothing wrong to you in seeking it!"

 

 

Sigh

 

I agree with this. My view is that if you want other sexual partners , then don't get married , as marriage is a union between 2 people with the expectation of fidelity.

 

If my H even suggested having another partner, I'd seriously be looking at ending the marriage, because it would be clear to me that I wasn't fully satisfying him, to the point that he wanted someone else.

 

It's like people these days want to go through the motions of , getting married, have kids and present themselves as respectable, but they lack the maturity for true commitment and still want to be sexual with another person.

 

They could stay single and have a different partner every night , but they feel that makes them look like a loser in life. When all their friends are married with kids and enjoying family life, they look so immature with a different GF/BF every couple of weeks. You end up with little in common with your friends who are in stable relationships, because they talk about the kids, school graduations etc and they are on another date. It's like you're not growing up.

[DIFM]

The question, or issue, is not one of marriage or sexuality, it is one of fidelity. Fidelity and trust is at the core of the pain poured out in this forum. Throughout all time, the desire and temptation to be unfaithful has existed. The desire to have sex with more than your chosen partner is as old as time. It is neither old nor new school. It is an inherent temptation and desire that is part of the human psyche.

 

However, the point of contention and source of the pain is the decision to act out on the desire, when doing so is a break of the highest level of trust one can have in another person. There is not so much "honest" discussion about open marriage or multiple partners because most that cheat and most that are cheated on do not want that type of arrangement. They want fidelity.

 

Ask a cheater that is in a stage of reconciliation with their BS if they are willing to allow their BS to have multiple partners and you will find the vast majority would not. They want fidelity from their BS, even through they were not able to honor the trust themselves.

 

The desire for trust and fidelity and monogamy is as much new school as old school. And at the same time, the desire to have a loyal spouse while not being loyal is as much new school as old school.

 

It is a straw man argument to suggest we are at a some stage of evolution where multiple intimacy partners is more accepted now because of that "higher evolved" state. I don't think there is any evidence that anything like that exists. Yes we are more accepting of diversity of sexual preference, but I don't see anything that suggests humans are any more willing to broaden the definition of fidelity and trust and loyalty to include adding additional partners into that circle.

 

There was fringe sharing and swapping 100 years ago and it is not likely much broader today. The vast majority still insist on fidelity, one on one. Old school is new school. Partners cheating and breaking that trust is also equally old school/new school.

Edited August 5, 2015 by DIFM

[waterwoman]

Personally I don't give a flying fig who puts where and with whom and how often as long as they don't lie about it.

 

Is honesty old-school?

 

When some people get married do they do it with the unspoken assumption that they may both be having it away with other the minute the ink is dry on the certificate and believe it's OK because they tacitly agreed it was expected? I didn't. H didn't either. It happened but not because either of us thought it was OK.

[Friskyone4u]

You have asked a good question that can have a lot of serious discussion., But whether or not you discuss open marriage or not, I think there are a lot of misconceptions about it especially among MEN. There is this glorified picture of open relationships that the media porttrays and a lot of the womens magazines write about.

 

The fact is that open relationships have inherently MORE problems, MORE shatterd marriages and a higher divorce rate than monogamous marriages even with the uptick in infidelity. Any reputable book on non monogamy will explain the greater risks and state clearly that both partners have to be totally committed to honesty and the realization that it COULD end their marriage. Too many who jump into it wind up crossing all boundaries that are agreed to and it is hard to put the genie back in the bottle when one of the partners wants to continue and the other does not.

 

If you read a polyamory forum, you will find that MOST of the threads asking how to start are started by women who do not want to cheat and are just using open marriage as a way to avoid the guilt.

 

Men who easily and without thought go along with it find out very quickly that the thrill of getting easy sex will be much more available to their wives then them and most of the time it is the man who wants out of the open marriage.

 

Swinging and open marraige can work for some people but if it is entered as some kind of remedy for a wandering eye, you better truly understand that MOST people who venture down this path do not live in it happily ever after and it is certainly no utopia any more than a monogamous marriage is.

[truncated]

I think that a lot of it boils down to a couple of factors.

 

 

The first is cowardice. It can be really frightening to be honest with your spouse if you want more/different sex than they can provide, and face the risk of possibly losing them if they are hurt or angered by the discussion.

 

The second is laziness. For some people, it's easier to cheat and than have a frank discussion with their spouse.

 

For all those who like to say that monogamy isn't natural, how many of them would be fine with their spouse cheating and being dishonest with them?

[autumnnight]

As Ecclesiastes said, there is nothing new under the sun. As long as people have existed, they have lied, betrayed, been selfish, and tried to find ways to justify it.

 

Calling integrity, honesty, and character "old school" is merely an attempt to try to elevate oneself above morality. You can never elevate yourself ABOVE morality, IMO. You can only sink below it.

[oldshirt]

True "old school" is anything but monogamous.

 

True old school was when a man had as many women as he could take and defend against other men.

 

True old school was when a woman would be with the best and strongest man that would have her and then be gone in an instant when a better and stronger man took her away.

 

Monogamy and being sexually exclusive with one partner for life is actually the new kid on the block.

 

Monogamy is purely a manmade construct and in evolutionary timeframes has only been around for a very short period of time.

[oldshirt]

 

 

The first is cowardice. It can be really frightening to be honest with your spouse if you want more/different sex than they can provide, and face the risk of possibly losing them if they are hurt or angered by the discussion.

 

The second is laziness. For some people, it's easier to cheat and than have a frank discussion with their spouse.

 

 

This true. It is easier for people to cheat and sneak some on the down low than it is to negotiate and work out all the details to a successful open/swinging/poly relationship.

 

Relationships take work and commitment, risk and communication whether they are monogamous or consensually nonmonogamous.

 

But the primary factor of infidelity is always the same and that is selfishness, entitlement and self indulgence.

 

In addition to the work involved, many people cheat because they want to have the fun on the side for themselves but don't want their partner to have the same privilege.

[PrettyEmily77]

A lot of variations on non-monogamous relationships / open marriages have existed at various times and in various cultures, so that's not new school at all. Selfishness and satisfying self-centered interests are also not new, nor is acting on impulse at the first tempting opportunity or neglecting other ppl's feelings.

 

 

What's new, IMO, is openly discussing individual ppl's choices in terms of sexual satisfaction in a society where privacy and intimacy are challenged and everything else is a competition, so now ppl will want to try and keep up with the joneses or to show themselves to be 'non-conforming' with sex, too.

[gettingstronger]

In short- honesty never goes out of style!

[66Charger]

I would bet "old school" would come back into fashion if she was being cheated on.

 

I dont think it is old school new school. I think it is just todays sense of entitlement, the llosening of morality and the Internet which makes cheating easier.

 

Thats "new school" but in the end, the pain and consequences are the same.

 

Deep dark hurt.

[Vercetti]

Time changes nothing, class is class / trash is trash. Everyone on earth could be screwed up, doesn't mean I would join. What I do are my standreds...not confirmation bias and glorified group think.

[Vercetti]

True "old school" is anything but monogamous.

 

True old school was when a man had as many women as he could take and defend against other men.

 

True old school was when a woman would be with the best and strongest man that would have her and then be gone in an instant when a better and stronger man took her away.

 

Monogamy and being sexually exclusive with one partner for life is actually the new kid on the block.

 

Monogamy is purely a manmade construct and in evolutionary timeframes has only been around for a very short period of time.

 

Well if simply an invention of man, then how do explain all the animals that mate for life? Then if just a concept made by man, wouldn't the opposite be true. I tend to have more respect for the self aware then those driven by primitive reipetile carnal drive playing enlightened.

[qubist]

OldShirt: if I may ask your opinion about some thing since you have experienced swinging. you mentioned that several swinging relationship have failed, I was wondering if any of them failed because of the swinging, can you elaborate more in this? how would swinging destroy an established relationship? thanks