We keep losing ground

[katielee]

If a marriage ends, who is to blame? Both parties? If I can’t forgive, what does that say about me?

 

 

 

He can barely talk about what happened, we end up going in circles, pointing fingers – our negative views of each other really concerns me.

 

 

 

We are both exhausted. I can’t even attempt to get questions answered or talk about what I need to because he just can’t hear it anymore. Strangely, I understand. Yet, it makes me feel very lonely. This might be all he can give and I have to decide if it is enough.

 

 

 

I tried to help him through a trigger last night - he was triggered by seeing a scantily clad football cheerleader on his friend's phone and thought about me and my actions - we made it about an hour and then I said, "but why were you looking at this at work anyway?" Fail on my part, I guess....

[Realist3]

Lose the idea of blame. What is the need for blame?

 

It didn't work. Who is supposedly to 'blame' makes not one bit of difference.

[katielee]

true, once something fails it probably doesn't matter.

[Realist3]

It doesn't matter.

[dichotomy]

Your situation is complex with betrayals on both sides - right? But there is no uniform approach to dealing with them. Each of you seems to have different feelings or responses to your own affair and the others. If you both can't agree "this is the way to reconcile a betrayal - regardless of who did it" then I am not sure how you resolve it.

[BetrayedH]

Forgiveness comes after true remorse or it's just cheap forgiveness. If he's not showing true remorse (not being willing to discuss the affair is a huge problem in that regard), then you have every right to call it a dealbreaker without it beig a reflection of your 'ability to forgive.'

 

The reality is that you both have justified reasons for leaving. Either of you can decide that you don't have the patience for another 2-5 years of this. I'm a firm believer that you cannot go around the process; you must go through it. If he can't do that, I suspect you'll be closer to the 5 than the 2, if you truly reconcile at all.

 

I think you need a counselor that is artfully skilled at infidelity to give you both a safe place to discuss it all.

[JamesM]

If a marriage ends, who is to blame? Both parties? If I can’t forgive, what does that say about me?

 

 

As they say, I am sure there is plenty of blame to go around. At this point, the only reason to care who is responsible for what is for learning. The only reason you need to dwell on the past is so that you can learn for the future. Analyze what went wrong and resolve how to do better.

 

You can only forgive if forgiveness is asked for. You can only forgive if he wants forgiveness. Yet it is also good for you to forgive him...and yourself...in your heart so that you can have closure and move on.

 

If you cannot forgive him, it says nothing about you per se except that you have unresolved feelings (ie anger). Deal with those so that you can become a healthier person.

[turnera]

Consider sticking to one thread so people don't have to hunt down your story. You'll get more advice that way.

[katielee]

sorry I started a new thread...

 

just back from IC where I said: I could forgive him in a heartbeat if I divorced him... because then I really am leaving it in the past.

I keep thinking: if i stay with him he has done this and then gets to stay married to me..... and I have to move past it for my own sake, married or not.

but divorce is actually a pretty strong consequence.

 

IC said: you want to punish him because he keeps blaming you for his actions... and not taking responsibility.

 

we go to MC tomorrow. I need clarification on issues. He has a right to see things his way.

 

One of the reasons we got into it last night: I want to join a fitness class and he doesn't want me to as men will be looking at me, etc.

We both have these insecurity issues... but it's all false security when we try to control.... I wish we could let go... we really hurt each other in so many ways and its starting to control the way we life our lives.

[turnera]

Not joining the class is a bad idea. Tell him he's welcome to come, too.

[BetrayedH]

I think you both need to clearly state what you NEED in order to stay in this marriage (clarify your expectations around transparency, boundaries, communication frequency/duration/detail). And then you both need to decide (via some serious soul-searching) if you can honestly deliver. Focus on what's really critical/dealbreakers.

[katielee]

BetrayedH: thanks for the idea. This is what I came up with.

 

What I need to stay:

 

 

A realization that what happened was not my fault. It was poor coping mechanisms. We had affairs because we felt like crap about ourselves. It doesn’t matter how we got to crappy but what we said to ourselves to justify what we did. THAT’S the part we need to look at.

 

 

 

A decision on your part of whether or not what happened in Wisconsin was an affair or constituted a rape and a promise to refer to it as that from now on.

 

 

 

Complete honesty about the past. Do I have the truth about everything?

 

 

Complete honesty in the present. If something uncomfortable happens we tell each other.

 

 

 

NC with the OW. An understanding that if you are together in the same building, you’ll leave.

 

 

 

Transparency – we will share passwords, etc if asked for and not blink twice about proving our trustworthiness to the other.

 

 

 

Continued IC and MC for the time being.

[ladydesigner]

(((katielee))) you sound a lot like me and my WH. We are both madhatters. My WH has had multiple A's and I had one RA (still an A).

 

I always kept coming back to that point you are talking about where you are both just so exhausted and tired of each other and talking about A's and punishing each other, and the insecurities on both sides.

 

My WH finally said to me that I need to stop punishing him, trying to "make him see" what he did. He told me that he can already see what he did, he see's it in my eyes everyday when I look at him, how our family/kids have struggled since, how his business almost failed because of the fallout, etc. It was at this point that I could see that he knew.

 

I am trying to R with a positive attitude now and put both feet back into the M again. I think we were both scared to give 100% in case the other were to hurt the other again. I realized my WH was being more vulnerable to me and that now we have to work together.

 

One part of you post that really resonated was this:

 

This might be all he can give and I have to decide if it is enough.

I read somewhere that we often feel this way because pre-A marriage probably wasn't enough so after the A they start to behave the way you wish they did pre-A, but add in the affair and we expect even more so because of the added damage.

[BetrayedH]

BetrayedH: thanks for the idea. This is what I came up with.

 

What I need to stay:

 

 

A realization that what happened was not my fault. It was poor coping mechanisms. We had affairs because we felt like crap about ourselves. It doesn’t matter how we got to crappy but what we said to ourselves to justify what we did. THAT’S the part we need to look at.

 

 

 

A decision on your part of whether or not what happened in Wisconsin was an affair or constituted a rape and a promise to refer to it as that from now on.

 

 

 

Complete honesty about the past. Do I have the truth about everything?

 

 

Complete honesty in the present. If something uncomfortable happens we tell each other.

 

 

 

NC with the OW. An understanding that if you are together in the same building, you’ll leave.

 

 

 

Transparency – we will share passwords, etc if asked for and not blink twice about proving our trustworthiness to the other.

 

 

 

Continued IC and MC for the time being.

 

I think this is a good start. Keep refining it.

 

Mine were (1) No lying (2) No contact and (3) No cheating. I later added transparency - besides the sharing of passwords, I required to right to investigate whatever I wanted, however I wanted, without disclosure. She agreed and we both quickly learned that when I investigated and found nothing, we both won.

 

I also think it's wise to try to put some boundaries about when to discuss the affairs. Having it be open season leads to that exhaustion. Set days, times, and durations. Keep to your time limits. Do something together that you both enjoy afterwards to celebrate the successful conversation; maybe it's watching your favorite TV show together; for another poster, they shared ice cream.

 

Consider using a sort of journal to write questions and provide answers. My exwife and I used to put the journal on the other person's nightstand when we had a question or had finished writing an answer. This took away a lot of the volatility and gave one another time to formulate a non-emotional response.

[Mr. Lucky]

A realization that what happened was not my fault. It was poor coping mechanisms. We had affairs because we felt like crap about ourselves. It doesn’t matter how we got to crappy but what we said to ourselves to justify what we did. THAT’S the part we need to look at.

I remember your story as being complex.

 

But why would you grant your H (and I'd assume give in return) such an irresponsible POV? Unless WS's take responsibility for affairs they build no future defense against them.

 

What happens when the next "crappy" set of circumstance comes along ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[dichotomy]

Reminds me of something I said recently in therapy... "I have punished you because I think you have not punished yourself very much for what you did".

[katielee]

Great advice everyone!! Dichotomy, well there you have it right there!

 

Crappy circumstances will arise, we need to define our new coping mechanisms for when that occurs.

 

Lady designer- thank you for posting. I haven't seem that look yet:((

[Steen719]

sorry I started a new thread...

 

just back from IC where I said: I could forgive him in a heartbeat if I divorced him... because then I really am leaving it in the past.

I keep thinking: if i stay with him he has done this and then gets to stay married to me..... and I have to move past it for my own sake, married or not.

but divorce is actually a pretty strong consequence.

 

IC said: you want to punish him because he keeps blaming you for his actions... and not taking responsibility.

 

we go to MC tomorrow. I need clarification on issues. He has a right to see things his way.

 

One of the reasons we got into it last night: I want to join a fitness class and he doesn't want me to as men will be looking at me, etc.

We both have these insecurity issues... but it's all false security when we try to control.... I wish we could let go... we really hurt each other in so many ways and its starting to control the way we life our lives.

 

Someone posted somewhere here a quote that said something like forgiveness can be accomplished when you give up the hope for that the past could be changed. I (very obviously) can't remember it exactly, but the idea stuck with me. It does free you some to really realize that you have no way of making the past any different than it is and talking, thinking about it and wishing that it will be different will never change it. Simple, but it made a difference in the way I viewed it. Maybe someone will post it and help me explain it better.

[katielee]

 

I think I understand that the past can't be changed. Can I live with what has happened in the past, though, that's what I'm asking myself.

[katielee]

I'm just not getting better. Today I see that an attractive single blonde wants to add my husband on LinkedIn. She has no reason to and I'm sure he won't add her. But it bugs the hell out of me that he's even out there. When things like this happen it makes me feel disconnected from him and that I better not invest too much of myself.

 

I should be better than this, 1.5 years out.

 

I know he feels the same way. I went to a teacher breakfast this morning. There were two other teachers there - I got my order to go. He drilled me about one of the teachers...

 

Not understanding why trust isn't better for us by now.

 

Next Thursday there is a breakfast at the place where OW#2 works. I have no idea if he's going and she may or may not be there. I would never choose to do this. If he goes, what does this say about both of us?

[BetrayedH]

Your H should be having no contact on any kind with either of his OW for life. Changing jobs and/or moving should absolutely be on the table. If it isn't, you're missing a MAJOR component of reconciling.

[katielee]

BetrayedH - thank you for reading and responding!

He doesn't moving will solve our problems...

[BetrayedH]

BetrayedH - thank you for reading and responding!

He doesn't moving will solve our problems...

 

There is no one silver bullet that does it. It's forty-two thousand things. Step number ONE is no contact. As madhatters, you have an immense amount of work to do if you want to salvage this marriage. A minimalist approach ain't gonna cut it.

 

No wonder you're a year and a half in and getting nowhere.

[Steen719]

I think I understand that the past can't be changed. Can I live with what has happened in the past, though, that's what I'm asking myself.

 

 

I knew it didn't sound right the way I wrote it and I know this is simplistic and maybe it just doesn't ring a bell with you, but here is the actual thing I read. I know you know the past can't be changed.

 

"So for today, here is a quote by Lily Tomlin:

“Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past.”

This quote is often met with either people saying “aha” or laughing because it is simply so true. When we refuse to forgive it’s as if we’re holding onto the past and saying “see past, I’m not going to let you have the pleasure of me letting go of you.” Meanwhile, the past is the past, it’s not happening right now in the present moment, or is it?

We keep the past alive by holding tightly to it, so perhaps it is occurring in this present moment. Now, I’m not suggesting we forget the past for the past is our teacher, however, I am suggesting that we loosen our grip on it a bit."

Forgiveness Means Giving Up All Hope for a Better Past | Mindfulness and Psychotherapy

 

I guess it just struck me. I just realized I was always looking back in disbelief that my life was turning out the way it was.

 

Anyway, enough of that.

 

I cannot imagine that anything will be better until you tell him what you are saying here. Keeping how you feel about the blonde, the breakfast, etc. to yourself is only going to lead to troubling resentments.

[katielee]

I think I'm gonna just sit back and see if he goes to the event, says anything about the LinkedIn request.

 

I need to know if he will come to me with something I would be uncomfortable with.

 

Steen: I appreciate your quote. I have given up hope of a better past. But I don't know if I'm honoring myself by staying in a relationship where 4 months of that past I was being abused. Same with him, I suppose.