Headed towards divorce - mixed signals from wife? Thoughts?

[Sharpie77]

Okay, this is a condensed version of a message I put up earlier this morning - which in retrospect was way too long - so if you want more details - take a look (under heading "High Stakes Poker Game..."

 

Link: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/second-chances/525371-high-stakes-poker-game-i-m-all

 

My wife and I will have been married for nine years in July. I am 38 and she is 34. We have two kids (5 and 2.5) - though we lost our first child at birth in 2008.

 

She initiated the break-up. She said she was tired of carrying the torch by herself. She thinks (and I believe her) that I was "checked out" of the relationship and that she tried to pull me back in (which she did - though maybe not enough) but that she finally realized she couldn't/wouldn't do it anymore. She says she carries a lot of anger/resentment towards me and has a lot of mistrust as in she entrusted her happiness to me and I let her down.

 

A lot changed when we lost our daughter. I know I went from being a very emotionally giving, creative person to be far more guarded with my emotions - so I get her feeling of emotional disconnect. I put up barriers to protect myself.

 

We still live together in same house - still function as a "normal" family but without normal husband/wife thing. We had planned to begin "nesting" this week - but put it off. It was my suggestion - said because I was going to start working more hours to help pay off our combined debt - but also because I want to spare kids as long as possible. She readily agreed to hold off and slow down process on her end (which I take to mean work on divorce). I have been served, by the way.

 

My therapist had me work on identifying my role in where we disconnected and I thought I hit on a lot of things I could have done better. My therapist suggested I write down in letter and give to my wife - which I did. In many ways, it validated a lot of what she felt was wrong with us. I didn't do it to win her back - just to show that something had come from this - I hadn't just shrugged it off but I had the ability to look inside and find some self awareness of not just what went wrong - but why it went wrong and then how I can be a better person because of it.

 

Since she made her announcement we have had periods where we got on good - periods where we got on badly. I have made effort to be realistic and work on moving on for myself and for kids. I still carry a torch for her - however - not that it consumes me - but our problems seem so fixable.

 

We had bad blow up weekend of 4/11 - I said some things in a text - emotionally charged - that she read. Nothing horrible - just things said from a state of pain and sadness - but she got really mad.

 

We have cooled down since and have been communicating better. This past weekend was "weird". She keeps complaining about vague physical symptoms - just not feeling right - and has numerous reasons why she is unwell - one of which is stress.

 

We're getting along better than we have in weeks (though she does have a habit of changing like that - so I am cautious). She sleeps in bed - I sleep on couch (don't worry, it's comfy!) - but she has been making an effort to sit down and talk with me last couple of nights (at one point she would have simply said goodnight or not said anything at all) about present (not past or future).

 

She seems conflicted - yet when she seems conflicted it's like she then draws back inwards and restates her opinion. She is stubborn.

 

Again - we had a GREAT relationship. We got hit by a real tragedy when we lost our daughter. We lost our way (and I can only speak for myself). I've shown that I'm capable of the self awareness needed to address changes that occurred emotionally after the loss. I think our problems are fixable and quite honestly I just don't know what she thinks.

 

She holds her cards so close to her chest and I'm scared of overplaying my hand but I'm also scared of being too timid. She sometimes feels so "close" that I feel like I can reach out and she'll be there - but then at times she is gone.

 

I'm realistic. I'll move on with her or without her - but I still love her - always have. I realize my mistakes and I've worked hard to correct them and be a better person. I've taken down those emotional barriers. I'm feeling again.

 

I just feel lost. I'm looking for a sign from her - something a little more overt, I guess.

 

I think what I need to do is take one day at a time and see what happens. She was open last night - will she be open tonight? I know I need to keep taking care of myself and my kids - being the best man I can be - the best father. I need to keep looking down the road under the assumption that it will not be with her - but that glow of hope refuses to die.

 

Thoughts??

Edited April 21, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Added link to closed duplicate thread.

[pondhawk]

It's sounds like there is hope because of your love and her attempting to hold off on the divorce.

 

About this:

"I'm realistic. I'll move on with her or without her - but I still love her - always have. I realize my mistakes and I've worked hard to correct them and be a better person. I've taken down those emotional barriers. I'm feeling again.

 

I just feel lost. I'm looking for a sign from her - something a little more overt, I guess."

 

What if she's doing the SAME THING?!?!

 

What if she's waiting for more signs from you? It's like both of you are trying a little but too afraid to go all in. Imo, if you still have love for her....fight the good fight. Fight like nothing else matters! Put 200% into it. Your children deserve to be raised by their own dad, especially a dad that still has love for their mom.

 

Maybe if the two of you were able to communicate better it would solve many problems. Does she go to therapy with you? Can you print this message out and show it to her? What you wrote is heartfelt and clear.

 

Sending strength

[wizer]

She filed for divorce. She's serious.

 

Is it possible she might have a change of heart at some point? Sure, it happens, but there's no way to know if it will happen and how much she'll really change her mind.

 

It's not looking good for you. All you can do is give her what she wants without being overly clingy. She's got her walls up, and it sounds like it's for good reason. So work on yourself, maybe she'll see some changes she'll like, if not at least you're helping yourself.

[Mr. Lucky]

You mention "therapist" but not MC. Have you gone together? Has she put her thoughts and needs down on paper for you to read?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Sharpie77]

We went to two sessions with a marriage counselor immediately after she gave me the news - but it was clear her heart was not in it - so we stopped going.

 

I see a therapist - and have done so - since we lost our daughter. She went awhile - but as soon as she felt she was past the loss - she stopped going. I wish she would have continued to go.

 

We talked again last night. It was a big, rambling conversation that did not discuss the future - and only really touched on the past. One thing we've always struggled with is the lack of "real" support from our families. Her mom and dad have always lived out-of-town and mine have always been second parents to my youngest sister's three kids. We never had grandparents who were ever eager to come and watch the kids so we could have time together - in face - we had the opposite - when we would ask it would seem like a burden.

 

We also talked about ourselves as individuals - how we saw ourselves - our talents.

 

It was a nice conversation - mutually initiated, I suppose. She works late on Tuesday nights so I had just finished putting our son to bed when she got home. She reheated dinner for herself - a plate I'd put together and put in the fridge for her - and then came out and sat in the living room with me.

 

We talked for about an hour before we were both too tired to continue and then she went to sleep in the bed and I went to sleep on the couch.

[Sharpie77]

It's sounds like there is hope because of your love and her attempting to hold off on the divorce.

 

About this:

"I'm realistic. I'll move on with her or without her - but I still love her - always have. I realize my mistakes and I've worked hard to correct them and be a better person. I've taken down those emotional barriers. I'm feeling again.

 

I just feel lost. I'm looking for a sign from her - something a little more overt, I guess."

 

What if she's doing the SAME THING?!?!

 

What if she's waiting for more signs from you? It's like both of you are trying a little but too afraid to go all in. Imo, if you still have love for her....fight the good fight. Fight like nothing else matters! Put 200% into it. Your children deserve to be raised by their own dad, especially a dad that still has love for their mom.

 

Maybe if the two of you were able to communicate better it would solve many problems. Does she go to therapy with you? Can you print this message out and show it to her? What you wrote is heartfelt and clear.

 

Sending strength

 

The thing is - I don't know why she isn't pushing as hard on the divorce as she was before. She hasn't stopped it - but there was a point where it consumed her: she spent every free minute working on paperwork or looking at condos or whatever. She's definitely stepped back from that - by her own admission - but she still hasn't given me any sign why. There is obviously a waiting period built into the process - maybe she just realizes it's now kind of a waiting game.

 

We did have another nice talk last night - not really too much about the past - and not about the future - just about the present. It was a warm conversation - friendly.

 

I wish she would go to therapy with me - but she won't. I wish I could print this out and show her - but I don't know if I feel that is the right move.

 

I have not stopped fighting for her - I never stopped. I'm willing to throw out a few slightly more overt signs to see how she reacts. I think the conversations help as long as I am an active listener. I know I have to continue improving myself - and not just to save this relationship - but to help me go forward. I know she has noticed my positive changes.

 

I guess it all comes down to what is truly in her heart. If she cannot get over her mistrust - nothing is going to happen. I will keep fighting the good fight - most definitely. I'll go down swinging.

[Sharpie77]

She filed for divorce. She's serious.

 

Is it possible she might have a change of heart at some point? Sure, it happens, but there's no way to know if it will happen and how much she'll really change her mind.

 

It's not looking good for you. All you can do is give her what she wants without being overly clingy. She's got her walls up, and it sounds like it's for good reason. So work on yourself, maybe she'll see some changes she'll like, if not at least you're helping yourself.

 

Yes, she is most definitely serious. I sometimes feel, however, that the more "serious" it gets - the tougher it gets for her. She has admitted several times that she is scared and that she might put up a tough exterior for the world - but she doesn't know if what she is doing is right.

 

She admits to worrying that she didn't do enough to save us - or at least she has admitted this recently - but she always comes back to the anger and resentment - and I should be maybe a little more clear on this: I never felt like I was neglecting her emotional needs. I felt like I was being a good husband and a good father and a good provider and that I was stretching myself as thin as I could go. I felt that this was the phase we were going through: parents of two small kids who both worked full-time jobs with hours that didn't overlap that well and without much outside support.

 

I was always there for her - but I think she was looking for more of the "grand" gestures - the date nights and so on. I know I could have done more - but I did a lot.

[amaysngrace]

You need to straight up tell her that you love her and you don't want to divorce.

 

Then listen to what she has to say.

 

Don't push therapy on her. That can only work if she wants it and you know that so don't pressure her by bringing it up.

 

Your two children...is one of them a girl? I'm very sorry for yours and her heartache of losing your child. I can't even begin to imagine the pain you've both endured.

[Sharpie77]

You need to straight up tell her that you love her and you don't want to divorce.

 

Then listen to what she has to say.

 

Don't push therapy on her. That can only work if she wants it and you know that so don't pressure her by bringing it up.

 

Your two children...is one of them a girl? I'm very sorry for yours and her heartache of losing your child. I can't even begin to imagine the pain you've both endured.

 

Yes...one is a girl, our youngest - and thank you for the thoughts about our loss. We discussed it on Sunday and both agreed we would not be here going through this had we not lost her.

 

I would love to come right out and tell her I love her - but I am scared. I know I have nothing to lose at this point. If she rejects me - well - she already kind has done that anyway.

 

I need to think about this today - I do know I need to step it up. I cannot be subtle in my communication - I've done that too long already.

[amaysngrace]

I would love to come right out and tell her I love her - but I am scared. I know I have nothing to lose at this point. If she rejects me - well - she already kind has done that anyway.

 

I need to think about this today - I do know I need to step it up. I cannot be subtle in my communication - I've done that too long already.

 

You have nothing to lose by telling her exactly how you feel. It's better than having regret over words left unspoken.

 

Fight that good fight!

[Sharpie77]

You have nothing to lose by telling her exactly how you feel. It's better than having regret over words left unspoken.

 

Fight that good fight!

 

I agree. My sister recently told me a story that her old boss had told her. He'd gotten divorced years ago - and had been with his current partner for years - but he said he always wondered if he could have done more to save his first marriage.

 

I don't want that to be me.

 

I know it has to begin and end with me. I know I have to have made positive changes to address the reasons for her desire to split up - I feel I have done that - not always successfully - but overall I am in a better place than I was when this began.

 

If I have any hope of rebuilding her trust in me - and again - not that I feel like I ever did anything to truly break that trust - but she feels she entrusted her happiness to me and I let her down - it has to begin with her noticing my changes - and I know she has.

 

Fortune favors the bold, right? I just feel so weak in the knees - almost like I was a teenager again.

[amaysngrace]

You can't be solely responsible for her happiness. That's her job.

 

Would getting a divorce bring her happiness and trust in you? You need to ask her that. And listen to what she has to say.

 

If I were you when I approached her I'd do a lot more listening and a whole lot less talking. You can be her therapist in a way and she will feel like she's been heard.

 

Being heard and understood will make her feel trust in you again. Don't argue back in defense mode but just listen to her and what she has to say.

 

Make it about her...not you.

Edited April 22, 2015 by amaysngrace

[Sharpie77]

You can't be solely responsible for her happiness. That's her job.

 

Would getting a divorce bring her happiness and trust in you? You need to ask her that. And listen to what she has to say.

 

If I were you when I approached her I'd do a lot more listening and a whole lot less talking. You can be her therapist in a way and she will feel like she's been heard.

 

Being heard and understood will make her feel trust in you again. Don't argue back in defense mode but just listen to her and what she has to say.

 

Make it about her...not you.

 

Good stuff. Thanks for the advice. I am going to give it a go - if I can work up the guts - might not be tonight or even tomorrow - but soon, very soon.

[Sharpie77]

Maybe I'm reading too much into this (and yeah, I know I probably am)...but...the only thing she has done to "officially" move the divorce forward over the past couple of days (since Friday - when she said she wanted to slow the process down) was to remind me to finish our court mandated "Children In Between" online course.

 

We started this the week of the 11th when we had our big blow up - and I got most of the way through it - and it is what it is - an online course (you do have the option of going to a physical class) that teaches you how to be good co-parents. It was useful info - I wasn't a huge fan 1) because I don't want this divorce in the first place and 2) the "bad guy" in each scenario seemed to be the dad.

 

Anyway - I got through all of the lessons - but didn't finish the course (we have time) - and as far as I know - she hadn't finished, either.

 

She sends me a text last night before she got home from work reminding me to finish it - so I pulled it up on the laptop this morning and watched the last part which was about alternatives to divorce! It featured a therapist who discussed reconciliation and why it is often a better alternative to divorce. He presented the pros and cons - mainly the cons - of divorce (except in cases of abuse and neglect and so on). He cited data about how many divorced couples (nearly 45%) express regret and other data about how so many divorced couples wish they could have done more. He talked about the potential "damage" it could cause our children.

 

It was a good video - a sort of "really look before you leap" video - and done in a way that got a good message across. Obviously, I'm looking for the message of reconciliation - so this hit the spot for me.

 

I'm now wondering if she completed it and what she thought of the video? Some of her behavior follows the guidelines he discussed.

 

This is where I start reading into things and thinking too much about stuff. Did she want me to finish watching it so I could see that bit? Was that her way of getting a message to me???

 

She hasn't mentioned the paperwork part - the lengthy financial disclosure statement - which is far more important - but she did ask me to make sure I finished the parenting course.

 

You can tell me I'm nuts - I know I am - I'm crazy for her - but I'd be curious to know what she thought of it. I received by certificate for passing the course - so I will let her know I did that and maybe it can be a bridge to a conversation regarding that portion of the course.

 

I just cannot escape from the idea that what we have are fixable problems. Neither one of us has cheated. There has never been abuse or neglect. We ran into issues that many couples run into - but we had something really great. Neither one of us seems happy (I know I'm not).

 

I understand that for our marriage to continue it needs to be different. I'm obviously continuing my therapy - which has helped me reach a level of self-awareness about things I had done wrong (my therapist suggested writing these in a letter which I gave to her). I'm doing my best to behave like the best partner I can be. I've said it before - she sometimes seems like she's right there - and that I should simply be able to reach out and feel her - pull her back in.

 

She's so stubborn. She's not a pushover (which I always loved about her). She stands her ground and is sometimes unpredictable (again, something I always loved about her).

 

I just feel a little emboldened so maybe we can discuss tonight.

[wizer]

I disagree with those who say you should step up and tell her how you feel.

 

She already knows you don't want a divorce.

 

She needs to see how life is going to be without you being there for her.

 

Like I said, back off, assume an attitude of cool detachement and acceptance of the divorce, and perhaps she'll suddenly come to grips with everything she has to lose- before it's so far gone that it cannot be fixed.

[Esraem]

I disagree with those who say you should step up and tell her how you feel.

 

She already knows you don't want a divorce.

 

She needs to see how life is going to be without you being there for her.

 

Like I said, back off, assume an attitude of cool detachement and acceptance of the divorce, and perhaps she'll suddenly come to grips with everything she has to lose- before it's so far gone that it cannot be fixed.

 

Wizer is correct. If you keep telling her how you feel you wont be giving her space to make her decision but make her feel you are badgering or pushing. I am trying hard in my situation to not do it and I backslid this last Monday and now am starting back at day one.

[davidromero43]

I said some things in a text - emotionally charged - that she read. Nothing horrible - just things said from a state of pain and sadness - but she got really mad.

 

Let me guess. You were full of self confidence when your wife first met you. She probably told you more than once she was attracted to your confidence. You might have even been a little cocky. You were strong and competitive.

 

And now. You feel overwhelmed by feelings. You want to discus everything for a resolution. You try to compromise more than be competitive.

 

 

I noticed a big change in my wife when I started going back to the gym and feeling good about myself. But every time I tell her I am sad or hurt, she seems to get angry at me. She wants a rock not a feather.

 

If I'm wrong then never mind

[wizer]

^ You're not wrong, you're spot on.

 

Weakness is unattractive. Women are naturally geared towards attraction towards a strong, protective, independent man, not a sniveling overly emotional weakling.

[dichotomy]

Let me guess. You were full of self confidence when your wife first met you. She probably told you more than once she was attracted to your confidence. You might have even been a little cocky. You were strong and competitive.

 

And now. You feel overwhelmed by feelings. You want to discus everything for a resolution. You try to compromise more than be competitive.

 

 

I noticed a big change in my wife when I started going back to the gym and feeling good about myself. But every time I tell her I am sad or hurt, she seems to get angry at me. She wants a rock not a feather.

 

If I'm wrong then never mind

 

 

 

 

I have to agree -happens to me as well.

 

keep your fears, weakness, etc... to yourself, a brother/dad, a bartender, this online group ... or a therapist. Also - If its a therapist keep that visit to yourself as well.

[pondhawk]

It just seems as if the communication is not clear. She may think you want a divorce because you're going along with what she wants you to do (i.e. online work), but have you ever sat down with her and said clearly, "I do not want a divorce. Is there any chance of us working this out, because I am open to changing previous bad behaviors?"

 

Keep it short and simple. See what she says.

 

Yes, you have nothing to loose. And if she responds with a "No, there is no chance of working it out." Then you can stop wondering and start to move forward as painful as that will be. I know, I'm divorced but happily remarried now. If there's no chance of reconciliation it will take a while to feel normal. You must give yourself time to grieve the marriage.

 

But at least if you ask her plainly, you can move forward in either direction.

[Thicke2013]

I really can't understand at this point why you would want to "play games" which is what it seems to me. Beating yourself up thinking she means one thing then another. Why not just ask her? Why not lay it all on the line. Become vulnerable. Tell her exactly what it is that you want and that is her! That you are willing to do whatever it takes to keep her! She wants a Rock? I call BS! I think she wants you to fight for her because you checked out of the marriage long ago and she has also put up walls to protect herself. She see's the changes that you have made but she too is scared that they are temporary and you will just revert back to the man that she wanted to divorce.

 

 

I know you say you don't have grandparents in the picture but I can assure you with a little research you can find a baby sitter. Take her out on a date just like you would have done when the two of you met. Do something fun to remind her of the good times that you had together prior to losing your daughter. Remind her that you are still that man but you were hurt and you became guarded. She will understand because she did the same thing! After this sit her down and tell her that you think that the two of you should give it all you have before you decide to divorce. Don't ask her to reconcile just yet. Ask her to give the relationship a valiant effort for 30 days. That means both of you acting like a married couple which includes sleeping in the same room. After that 30 days if she still wants a divorce then you will move forward with it. At least at that point you will know that you did all you could do.

 

 

For what it's worth, I truly feel for the two of you in the loss of your daughter. I can't even imagine the pain and the toll it takes on you. You have my deepest sympathy. My neighbors had their 14 year old son die in a freak ATV accident. Within 2 years they were divorced. It was tragic and they couldn't get over it. I pray that you two can. Good luck OP.