How many believe that teaching of "till death do us part" is wrong?

[oldshirt]

The other thread of similar title caught my attention but I wanted to discuss a different aspect of it and didn't want to hijack that thread or turn it into a battle zone.

 

 

My question is little different and what I am wondering is if there are any other people out there that believe it is actually wrong and a disservice to society and to individuals to indoctrinate people into believing that marriage is until death regardless of what the state of that marriage is?

 

 

Please realize I am not talking about people divorcing over someone leaving the cap off of the toothpaste or breaking up a family because someone at work has bluer eyes or a tighter butt than your spouse.

 

 

What I am talking about is do you believe it is a disservice to your children and to society as a whole to promote a belief of "till death do us part.." and "for better or for worse" without providing some disclaimers and without specifying what some realistic disqualifying events would be?

 

 

I am a bit older than the average person on this forum and have seen a lot of really bad things taking place in marriages over the years in people of my generation and people older than me and perhaps I have become jaded but I would rather think I have just gotten a little wiser and less likely to accept other people's BS. But I have gotten to the point, I believe marriage should NOT be something that is promoted as unbreakable and as something that is an unwaiverable lifetime commitment.

 

 

There I said it - I think a dogmatic assertion that marriage must be for life without exception is wrong, irresponsible and dumb.

 

 

I raise my kids that if someone is mistreating them, abusing them, exploiting them or taking advantage of them - it's time to cut that person out of their life. The fact that that person may be married to them is not an exception. They will have to incur those associated costs and hoops and hurdles, but I am never going to send them back home to someone that is mistreating them and tell them they made a commitment for life and to go back to someone who is a detriment to their life.

 

 

Anyone else think that it is time to lay the concept of dogmatic adherence to "death do us part" to rest?

[oldshirt]

Let me clarify my position a little bit so you know where I am coming from.

 

 

I think it is wrong for people, institutions and organizations to dogmatically teach people that marriage is "for better or for worse" and "till death do us part" without teaching them what the realistic exemptions and disqualifyers and exceptions are.

 

 

And my main point is that to say, "...there are no exceptions.." is simply wrong, irresponsible and reckless.

 

 

I am not promoting that divorce should be frivolous or without just cause. I am simply saying that there is a list of very legitimate and reasonable just causes and people should be able to divorce if those just causes occur without judgement, discrimination of contempt should they need to invoke that right.

 

 

I think that parents, extended families, religious and community organizations need to drop the dogmatic teachings and preachings that a marriage must be endured and maintained despite how bad the "...for worse" is.

[oldshirt]

...And I think that people need to be raised up to be prepared for divorce and not blindly believe that their spouse is going to always be there regardless of what they do.

 

 

I think people should be in a position that they will survive and flourish if their spouse doesn't come home one day.

 

 

..and they always need to be prepared to pack their sht and head out in the middle of the night if they need to.

 

 

We raise our kids to always carry car insurance and keep the registration and proof of insurance in the car even though we do our best to follow traffic laws and drive safely.

 

 

I see this as no difference. Divorce insurance is simply having an education and employment and separate bank accounts and credit cards and credit ratings and having the individual life skills to live on your own should your spouse leave you and you should be able to leave your spouse at any moment should your spouse abuse or mistreat you.

 

 

In my sincere humble opinion, the more someone is prepared and capable someone is to live without a spouse, the less likely anyone is to mistreat them and the less likely they are to need to invoke that option.

[xxoo]

I don't see this teaching in a practical form in my life. Even some Catholic friends have been granted official annulment of marriage after years of marriage to be able to marry in a Catholic church again. No one is denied divorce that I can see.

 

People should look less to others for validation and approval.

[todreaminblue]

what i feel is a real disservice to society and communities and families is how easy it is to walk away from a marriage.....i do believe that the bible itself says what you should and shouldnt do in a marriage and severe abuse of any form is a disqualifier as i believe so is adultery

i feel there should be way more support for marriages as in counsellign services

 

marriage should always be taken seriously and with honor or committed to and commitments honored...i actually believe marriage goes beyond death or should ultimately be eternal ...together forever.....

the sanctity and special covenants that are actually god given and of marriage should be held as sacred the vows made and agreed upon definitely always adhered too...and then there would be no abuse in a marriage by either a husband or a wife........divorce should be something that is never taken lightly....and only done once all effort to save the marriage are exhausted...thats my opinion and my belief......deb

[Timshel]

Perhaps. I can say from personal experience that the changes within a lifetime can really throw the wrench. My parents did "till death do you part" quite well. A person could say they were old fashioned but that would not be true. My mom got a Phd in science when women didn't even go to college. At Brown U no less. Hat off to her, from me.

I think that it can work. I remember after my dad telling me that once upon a time he had an affair, he said: If you ride out the highs and lows, what you arrive at is a communion higher and better than what you could ever imagine.

I believe that. Any relationship will have it's up's and down's. The one's that stand the test of time; there is an untouchable beauty in that.

I divorced my first husband. I am beyond reproach in my civility to him. I have no respect for him though. I have never once questioned divorcing him. He is not right for me.

No one can predict the outcome of a marriage. I think the words should be said and when they are said, believed. There is Grace in knowing when to let go if hanging on is causing peripheral damage. There is also so much Grace in staying if Love will win the day. Love=kindness, compassion, honesty, respect, laughter, teamwork.......

[oldshirt]

I don't see this teaching in a practical form in my life. Even some Catholic friends have been granted official annulment of marriage after years of marriage to be able to marry in a Catholic church again. No one is denied divorce that I can see.

 

 

.

 

Divorces are really not legally denied in the western world so I'm not really talking about the court system per se. I'm talking more about cultural and societal practices of instilling in people that remain in the marriage and endure deep misery and even abuse and mistreatment due to "commitment."

 

 

This is often under the guise of "working it out."

 

 

OK so I have been to MC twice (not two sessions but rather two different counselors on two different occasions separate by a number of years) and we have "worked it out" so I get that. But both of us were committed to trying to save the marriage and we took the counselors recommendations in good faith.

 

 

But I am talking about where there is not good faith by one of both of the partners.

 

 

When people say to "work things out" what they often mean is "find a way to make the other person stop mistreating you or learn to live with it."

 

 

My position here is that if someone is mistreating you or not living up to their end of bargain and they are not willing to try to meet half way on good faith, the way people need to "work things out" is by moving on and leaving them behind.

 

 

Cold and brutal I know, but that's how I see it now that I look at the world now that I've surpassed the half century mark.

[oldshirt]

what i feel is a real disservice to society and communities and families is how easy it is to walk away from a marriage.....i do believe that the bible itself says what you should and shouldnt do in a marriage and severe abuse of any form is a disqualifier as i believe so is adultery

i feel there should be way more support for marriages as in counsellign services

 

marriage should always be taken seriously and with honor or committed to and commitments honored...i actually believe marriage goes beyond death or should ultimately be eternal ...together forever.....

the sanctity and special covenants that are actually god given and of marriage should be held as sacred the vows made and agreed upon definitely always adhered too...and then there would be no abuse in a marriage by either a husband or a wife........divorce should be something that is never taken lightly....and only done once all effort to save the marriage are exhausted...thats my opinion and my belief......deb

 

 

 

Yeah but what if your spouse simply turns out to be an *********.

 

 

Here's the real rub. The ********* doesn't care about those things and won't allow him/herself to held to that standard.

 

 

The person who does hold themselves to that standard is at a distinct disadvantage. The person who believes to their core that they should remain in the marriage and continue to "work on it" will be subjected to other's continued abuses.

 

 

The ********* knows this and preys on that.

 

 

where as If the other person was always ready, willing and able to walk if the abuse were to occur (and I'm talking about a wide range of issues under the umbrella of abuse here) the chances of the abuse is drastically reduced....especially any second time offenses.

[xxoo]

Personally, I always have and always will advise my friends and loved ones to leave any marriage with abuse, uncontrolled addiction, infidelity, or behavior otherwise "sinking the ship". So I guess I agree with your OP, but I see it as the common belief, not counter-culture.

[coryreply]

what i feel is a real disservice to society and communities and families is how easy it is to walk away from a marriage.....i do believe that the bible itself says what you should and shouldnt do in a marriage and severe abuse of any form is a disqualifier as i believe so is adultery

i feel there should be way more support for marriages as in counsellign services

 

marriage should always be taken seriously and with honor or committed to and commitments honored...i actually believe marriage goes beyond death or should ultimately be eternal ...together forever.....

the sanctity and special covenants that are actually god given and of marriage should be held as sacred the vows made and agreed upon definitely always adhered too...and then there would be no abuse in a marriage by either a husband or a wife........divorce should be something that is never taken lightly....and only done once all effort to save the marriage are exhausted...thats my opinion and my belief......deb

 

Thanks for this, deb. This pretty much summarizes my thoughts as well. I would like to highlight the fact that the Bible does contain stipulations for divorce. Jesus would never condone a person staying in a relationship that is killing them for the sake of the commitment. He does, however, teach us to lay down our lives for our spouse. There is no room for selfishness in a healthy marriage.

[Donate]

I believe its right.

 

I think the emphasis on the death of 'what' is wrong.

 

When the relationship dies....its over.

[todreaminblue]

Yeah but what if your spouse simply turns out to be an *********.

 

 

Here's the real rub. The ********* doesn't care about those things and won't allow him/herself to held to that standard.

 

 

The person who does hold themselves to that standard is at a distinct disadvantage. The person who believes to their core that they should remain in the marriage and continue to "work on it" will be subjected to other's continued abuses.

 

 

The ********* knows this and preys on that.

 

 

where as If the other person was always ready, willing and able to walk if the abuse were to occur (and I'm talking about a wide range of issues under the umbrella of abuse here) the chances of the abuse is drastically reduced....especially any second time offenses.

 

Here's the real rub. The ********* doesn't care about those things and won't allow him/herself to held to that standard.

 

 

The person who does hold themselves to that standard is at a distinct disadvantage.

 

 

 

Hey old shirt, as far as being an ass wipe goes...the only true way to try to avoid this is to know a person well enough before marriage......even then .....things or people can change due to circumstances....a non drinker can take up drinking for example ro drugs...or whatever......

 

 

 

i have to disagree on the disservice or disadvantage by having solid standards and values.....it is not a disadvantage at all...it is a credit to your core.....to the essence of who you are and how you live your life to hold yourself and your partner to hold steadfast and true to those standards and values.....

 

you do not change your standards and values for anyone that is when you find unhappiness reigns supreme......its the choice you make for your own self respect

 

if someone is disrespectful and continues to show horrid behaviors in a marriage you try to find the root of the problem and cut it from there...if it continues to happen....and you have done everything you can to eradicate and compromise and communicate a change needs to be made and that change doesnt happen or one party refuses to sit at the same table of resolution...then its time to reconsider if the marriage is a viable union long term.........

 

 

to be honest one instance of abuse one instance of infidelity is enough to reconsider...serious help profession help is what would be needed...by biblical principles alone......the above instances....are marriage destroying....

 

 

i do not consider myself at a disadvantage at all (as far as, if i were to marry), because i have old school beliefs on marriage...i think i have an advantage actually, the beginning of a foundation that could be built on.......a foundation built to last through many trials...i would not compromise what i believe.......

 

 

..i would only be at a disadvantage if the guy i was with or future partner......were not to believe as i believe...then there would be problems.....that is why i believe i need to have a partner who follows the same faith, the same high regard for marriage as i do....abuse is not right......in any relationship including a marriage...it is the abuse that puts someone at a disadvantage ..not the vows or standards you hold yourself to or promises you make......no one person is responsible for anothers bad behaviors.......deb

[SmartDude]

"Till death do us part"

 

It means until the death of the relationship, not the actual people.

[dichotomy]

i do believe that the bible itself says what you should and shouldn't do in a marriage and severe abuse of any form is a disqualifier as i believe so is adultery

 

 

I understand your post and respect it. Abuse of children for sure is a deal breaker for me, but to be picky about the above statement. I attend(ed) church and went through a 3 month premarital class - only two reasons allowed in the bible for divorce 1) Adultery 2) an Unbeliever wishes to leave. Or at least that's what they said.

 

In the church premarriage class we had an exercise, they asked all the engaged couples to stand in the room. Then they said "sit down when you would leave your marriage"...they started listing awful stuff like "gambling money away", "taking hard drugs", "alcoholism/drunk driving", "degrading your kids" "abusing your kids"....etc... they also listed a few not so horrible things (like watching porn).

 

Only one engaged man remained standing at then end of this long hard list and his explanation was "my future wife would never do any of these things". Note my church did NOT say those who sat down were wrong to consider divorce for one of these worst things, it was simply to get them thinking about the worst and their boundaries and for their future spouse to see when they sat down.

 

Note my wife sat down when they got to "degrading my children". I stayed standing until they listed something involving grave harm to my kids like "driving drunk/high with kids in the car".

 

Nobody ever gets married thinking of the "for worse" part.

Edited March 19, 2015 by dichotomy

[truncated]

I'm agnostic, so my view towards marriage is not based on religion, but rather on a belief that when you marry someone, in is for the rest of your life, barring the following exceptions:

 

(a) abuse. This can mean physical or verbal abuse, abuse of children, mental abuse in the form of cheating or substance/ financial abuse by one spouse

 

(b) If the relationship is dead, but this should only be seen as an option if the couple has tried everything possible to revive it. That entails serious counseling and effort and should never be taken lightly

 

© If there are children, if keeping marriage together is more harmful to them than if it dissolves

 

I really believe that marriage, be it "regular" or common law should be a step a couple takes only after careful consideration and a view past the wedding and the first year of married life. Personally,i think that the whole big expensive wedding idea is ridiculous. Why spend thousands and thousands that could better be spent getting the couple on good financial footing?

 

i suppose part of my views come from my parents, who had a small wedding and were married over 50 years until my mom passed away.They had their ups and downs, but were very happy with each other.

[redtail]

I don't believe it's an unrealistic expectation to take marriage seriously to the point that one should expect that decision to be lasting, maybe just short of permanent.

 

But I also believe that people should understand when to cut their losses. Just because you made a mistake with someone you thought you could spend the rest of your life with, doesn't mean you should follow up with another mistake by staying.

[autumnnight]

Thanks for this, deb. This pretty much summarizes my thoughts as well. I would like to highlight the fact that the Bible does contain stipulations for divorce. Jesus would never condone a person staying in a relationship that is killing them for the sake of the commitment. He does, however, teach us to lay down our lives for our spouse. There is no room for selfishness in a healthy marriage.

 

I am thinking he didn't mean at the receiving end of their fists, however. But many people, because Jesus ONLY mentioned adultery, would advise someone to stay and continue receiving beatings. I even know of some churches that believe since it only says a man can leave his wife for adultery, the woman CAN'T leave for adultery.

 

That is utter rubbish.

[writergal]

My dad's parents met in high school and were married for more than 80 years. That is true love. I don't believe the teaching of "til death do us part" is wrong because I would love to find a man who wants to stay married to me until death parts us, like what my grandparents had. My parents didn't have it because of my dad's death from cancer. Obviously, I can't have a marriage last 80 years at this stage in my life, but it would be awesome to be married once and not have to worry about divorce happening to me.

[Panda9080]

I do believe that "Till death do us part" is wrong.

 

I have seen many couples suffer whole their lives by "trying to stay together". They do more harm than good to the children in that toxic environment.

[Michelle ma Belle]

I was raised Catholic and taught that marriage was forever. I believed it and never questioned it.

 

Now I'm divorced. Never thought I'd be here or be that girl. But I am.

 

I no longer believe in "until death do we part". I barely believe in marriage anymore.

[todreaminblue]

I understand your post and respect it. Abuse of children for sure is a deal breaker for me, but to be picky about the above statement. I attend(ed) church and went through a 3 month premarital class - only two reasons allowed in the bible for divorce 1) Adultery 2) an Unbeliever wishes to leave. Or at least that's what they said.

 

In the church premarriage class we had an exercise, they asked all the engaged couples to stand in the room. Then they said "sit down when you would leave your marriage"...they started listing awful stuff like "gambling money away", "taking hard drugs", "alcoholism/drunk driving", "degrading your kids" "abusing your kids"....etc... they also listed a few not so horrible things (like watching porn).

 

Only one engaged man remained standing at then end of this long hard list and his explanation was "my future wife would never do any of these things". Note my church did NOT say those who sat down were wrong to consider divorce for one of these worst things, it was simply to get them thinking about the worst and their boundaries and for their future spouse to see when they sat down.

 

Note my wife sat down when they got to "degrading my children". I stayed standing until they listed something involving grave harm to my kids like "driving drunk/high with kids in the car".

 

Nobody ever gets married thinking of the "for worse" part.

 

thanks for clarifying.......as far as abuse goes ..child abuse sexual or physical and or spousal abuse sexual or physical for me would make me an unbeliever in the marriage.....

 

i promised myself i would never take a hit from any partner i have again or allow my children ...teen girls to see that occur so they might follow suit...thinking its normal for a woman to cop kicks and punches

 

my girls have never seen me take a hit from a partner...and they shall never see it.....not with a guy who professes to love me and them.......

 

i havent been hit or abused that way in a very long time.......i prefer not to go through it again....and that i would stipulate before marrying any guy...i would stipulate if you hit me....it will be over if you dont get help.....i will walk away or i will suport you in counselling and anger management...if he hit me again thats freaking it.....i would walk away ...which would be dignity and respect for myself and my girls.....he can have everything else..he will not have those things from me...when my ex bounced me off the walls..it was a one off...i forgave...but i cannot forget the way being kicked in the head made me feel...and i dont want to remember first hand..

 

maybe that makes me a weak prospect as a marriage partner...i cannot be hit or deal with violence against me.......not against a guy i share a bed with....makes me feel sick thinking about it.......no one deserves to be hit...marriage shouldnt change a common humane concept..especially when they dont fight back.....to me that would make me an unbeliever.....i woudl leave.......deb

[carhill]

I would be inclined to teach that it's a noble goal but not an altar one sacrifices their life or emotional and physical health at.

 

I think, IME, that it wasn't so much that 'till death do us part' was overtly taught, rather role-modeled by example, in that marital challenges were to be overcome by the team and it was the commitment to the team that overshadowed the individual. That wasn't spoken as teaching, rather acted out in everyday life. Was it wrong? Maybe for my generation, IDK. There were a number of areas where role-modeling went haywire for me so I tend to put it more on my psyche than any particular teaching.

[Eggplant]

I like the idea of a 20-year commitment to raise children to young adulthood.

[waterwoman]

Maybe I live in a very different society to you but I don't think I have EVER heard anyone say that marriage is so important that it must last for ever no matter what. People divorce all the time, they live together unmarried, they marry again and raise blended families. Marriage to most people is just one part of the landscape of relationships and it isn't the most important part. H and I have together forever but I only know one other couple like us. We're dinosaurs! Most of the people we know have been through multiple marriages and no-one gives a ####!

[Quiet Storm]

Til death to us part isn't a death sentence. The vow is designed to keep a couple together through the hard times. Until the good times come again. Marriage is a journey that ebbs and flows. I don't think someone should indefinitely tolerate abuse, addiction, personality disorders, etc. But I think most marriage problems can be worked through with time and patience. Its kind of like middle school- a bad spot in your marriage is just one small slice of your life. It doesn't define it, and it doesn't stay like that forever.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Quiet Storm