fed up with my lab, my advisor; should i bail out on a social activity?

[MissTrudy]

i am a graduate student and i am leaving my lab in a few days for a short-term internship at another lab in another country. one of my lab mates decided to suggest to my advisor that we should have a potluck at her house as a going away party for me. this was all so she could talk to my advisor's husband, who works in our field and whom she has a huge academic crush on. no one asked if i wanted to have a party, it was sprung upon me and basically my last weekend in the country is shot because of this party; i'd rather spend time with people i actually like (or myself!) than at this event. i was and still am a bit pissed about it, but i've sort of sucked it up.

 

Add to this the fact that my advisor hasn't been advising much lately. I will keep this short and not go into why (it's not health related though; she basically signed up to do 3 jobs and forgot that training graduate students is one of her jobs).

 

There is a really important paper i want to publish and i need her feedback on it before i publish it because she's a co-author. I gave this paper to her on September 10th as she said she would read it on the 12th. She still hasn't read it. There are now at least 5 things on her desk from her students that she needs to read. two of these things belong to me. At least 2 of those documents (from other students) are grants that have set deadlines meaning they will get priority over the document I sent in before they did (my deadline, while hard to me, is soft to her). It isn't the other students' fault, but man it sucks!

 

I gave her both of these things a while ago because I want to have them submitted before I submit other applications for fellowships (I can put them on my CV if they're submitted; I can't put them on my CV if they're not submitted). She knows how important this is to me and she has known since June that I wanted to get these things done before I left the country. It's going to be a bit more difficult for me to do it abroad, and my goal was to focus my energies on the one project I'm doing while I'm abroad.

 

But as it stands now, I will have two papers to submit, one paper to edit, and 3 applications to submit while I am abroad, all working on an additional time-consuming research project. I was hoping to just have a paper to edit and 3 applications to submit in addition to my lab work, but I don't think that's going to happen now.

 

She keeps making excuses and I've made it clear to her that I really need this done ASAP and she just isn't getting it. or just doesn't care. As in, I tell her, I want to submit these papers before I leave so that I can focus on my project. I've said this line to her basically every week since August, and like I said earlier, she knew that this was the plan in, well, June.

 

Now I am considering not going to this damn party that I don't want to go to anyway. I am annoyed at the fact that my advisor can socialize and schmooze for 2 hours but can't read a paper that will take her less than 40 minutes? Hell, even if she wants me to rewrite the whole thing, at least that's feedback. I have nothing so far and it's really putting me behind. Plus, I hate that this lab mate is using my departure as an excuse to meet her own needs. I don't want to play along with these games (I already told my guilty lab mate in so many words how I feel about this party) and at this point I just feel like throwing in the towel, saying good riddance, and peacing out until I get back in the new year. thoughts?

[d0nnivain]

It does sound like you are in a tight spot but you still have to go to the event. It's one of those quasi-social business things where face time is important. If you don't show up, you will look petty & you will be less likely to get what you want from the advisor. Sorry.

[BluEyeL]

I'm a Professor and you sound whiny and entitled. I don't like this type of graduate students who think the world revolves around their needs. Your advisor has a lot of other things on her desk that you have no clue about and she can't give you priority. It's just "me me me".

 

When I was a grad student I also thought my advisor was just sitting on her butt doing nothing, but I found out that sadly that's very very far from the truth.

 

You have to go to the event and drop the bratty attitude. You might need a letter later on.

[CrystalCastles]

I'm a Professor and you sound whiny and entitled. I don't like this type of graduate students who think the world revolves around their needs. Your advisor has a lot of other things on her desk that you have no clue about and she can't give you priority. It's just "me me me".

 

When I was a grad student I also thought my advisor was just sitting on her butt doing nothing, but I found out that sadly that's very very far from the truth.

 

You have to go to the event and drop the bratty attitude. You might need a letter later on.

 

I disagree. Do you actually have graduate students?

 

I am an undergrad but I work in a lab. My boss is a prof who teaches at my university part time. His lab also got several more students recently. He's a very busy man, but extremely organized, and his graduate students are always a priority. It boggles my mind that a prof wouldn't find his students a priority- they're the ones doing the research that will then be used in papers which will end up in journals to be read and cited by other scientists!

 

Without graduate students, there would be no papers, no research and no labs! I'm not saying that a prof has no other priorities, but graduate students are the ones who are keeping a prof's research going. I know that in chemistry, at least, if your lab has many students but produces very few papers in low-quality journals, that generally means your lab isn't very good. My previous prof before that would get grants and extra subsidies for his lab if he took on post-docs.

 

Graduate students are important for a prof's success and therefore reputation. Also, as a professor, you'd assume that they got into that position for the research and the thrill of advancing human knowledge. So the fact that the OP's prof is acting so uncaring and irresponsible towards her lab and the work that goes on in it is just mind-boggling. Not to mention, the prof was aware of this since June.

 

Not to mention, the OP's prof's negligence can have an adverse effect on the OP's success.

 

OP, you are absolutely right and justified for feeling how you do, however, I wouldn't hassle your prof. You can ask her once again, very politely, but no more, because if she gets pissed at you, and you need a reference letter from her in the future, she won't write you a good one.

[Radu]

I don't think you can afford to burn any bridges OP, especially since you two are tied to the hip for a while, so go at the party [at your house].

 

It is true that many in academia are *******s, jerks and wh*res, but you gotta suck it up if you decided to play the game.

[MissTrudy]

I went to the event.

 

BluEyeL, do you have grad students? What type of institution are you at?

 

I am at a highly ranked R1 institution in the US. We're #1 or #2 in the country for my discipline. So we're expected to push papers out. The thing about advising, especially at a research institution, is that you take on the responsibility to ADVISE your students. Have your students push out good research. That is why you are an advisor. I joined her lab because she had an amazing track record (pre and post-tenure) of publication, outreach, and teaching.

 

I know she has a lot on her plate, she's very transparent with me about what she's doing and I respect her more than any other graduate student in the lab; we actually have a really great relationship built upon mutual respect, the foundation of which has only started to fracture (in June).

 

But that doesn't change her research and advising responsibilities, given that she has many grad students at an R1. She is not meeting her responsibilities right now and I am not the only one in my lab suffering...all of us are.

[BluEyeL]

Yeah, I have seven Ph.D. students, several undergraduate researchers, and I am at a R1 institution. You're still whiny and even thinking of not going to the party that is being organized for you, shows how much you don't appreciate a nice gesture. Doing that because you judge the professor's speed on reading your papers shows very poor attitude. You still need an attitude transplant if you want to succeed in Academia, because, you'll learn later, attitude and collegiality is more important than the number of papers. Letters are also more important than your papers. You can have 50 papers, it won't help you if you come across as arrogant and clueless in your interviews and if your adviser doesn't give you a good letter, your efforts will be useless. So suck it up and do what you have to do. Advisers with large labs have less time for individual attention and are slower at reading papers. If you want one on one attention and speed, go to a lab that has 2 graduate students.

 

Granted, my adviser didn't let me publish my papers for YEARS so I know that feeling, it sucks, but throwing tantrums and acting like you know what's going on in your adviser's life and activity when you don't have much of a clue is highly annoying and bratty.

 

I push papers out, at a rate of about 10 per year, I read papers in a timely manner (not leave them around since June), but I also like students who don't whine and complain and think they're the center of the Universe and I'm providing customer service to them. You just have no clue. My first Ph.D. student is now a professor at an R1 herself and she called to tell me how she had NO CLUE how many components this job has and she's scared ****.less. You'll learn!

 

Be respectful, show up at the party and keep asking for your paper to be read, but give NO attitude about it. Don't act entitled and bratty, that won't take you anywhere in Academia.

Edited November 1, 2014 by BluEyeL

[BluEyeL]

As for how labs wouldn't function without graduate students, yeah, true, however, the point is, labs can't survive without FUNDING. That's the priority and not whiny, disrespectful students.

 

And YOU are getting an education, not doing free labor there. You're working for yourself, not so much for your professor, and forging long term relationships for your career, you're not there to give advisor evaluations.

[MissTrudy]

She doesn't know how frustrated I am with her and I don't plan on bringing it up. I will graduate soon so I just need to get through the next year or so. I'm persistent, independent, and proactive. I am collegial, albeit crochety on the inside in situations like the one I presented here. I went to that party with a smile on my face though I wanted to punch through a wall the day before.

 

My advisor loves me and has always written me really good letters. She has never dropped the ball like this before and she finally apologized to me about it, without my prompting, because I'm sure she knows it's inexcusable. I am happy that she finally acknowledged the problem but it doesn't help with my professional development. I do everything I can in my power but there are some things I can't yet do because I don't have a PhD (like apply for certain federal grants) and these papers can't go out without her approval since she's a co-author. She doesn't have a big lab either. She just bit off more than she can chew, she has told us this, and she regrets it, yet when people continue to ask her to do things like serve on committees, she still says "yes."

 

Also, funding isn't a priority for my advisor. All of us graduate students have gotten funding for our own projects with little help from her. I think it's made me a more attractive job candidate and it was pretty easy for me so I don't care too much about that, but you have to admit, that is odd behavior for a Research professor. One of my lab mates just got a quarter million grant with some help from other profs at my university and my advisor's signature.

 

My advisor is clearly transititioning away from academia and towards policy/administration, which is totally fine, and had I known that 5 years ago when I applied to the lab, I would probably have chosen differently. But it was pretty sudden, like the past year. I have no desire to leave and if I did it would be super awkward for my career. I'm just applying for post-docs, writing my dissertation, resending emails, and hoping that I'm more than all but dissertation quite soon!

 

also, if you think i'm whiny and bratty, it's a good thing you haven't met the other students in my lab! I've literally set up email filters for a few them so that I don't have to deal with all of the nasty crap they send to me about my advisor. I wish I could tell her to kick them out of the lab for her sanity and the lab well-being, but I am a professional and I just want to get my diploma and peace out.

Edited November 1, 2014 by MissTrudy

[CrystalCastles]

As for how labs wouldn't function without graduate students, yeah, true, however, the point is, labs can't survive without FUNDING. That's the priority and not whiny, disrespectful students.

 

And YOU are getting an education, not doing free labor there. You're working for yourself, not so much for your professor, and forging long term relationships for your career, you're not there to give advisor evaluations.

 

I don't know if the last part was directed at me, but yes, I AM doing free labour, I am volunteering in my lab. I'm doing so because I'm about to publish a paper and I want to get my project done.

 

The OP isn't being whiny. This is her career too. The prof hasn't read two papers (not 50, two) that have been submitted to her September 10. You're saying that the OP is whiny because her prof won't read 2 papers that have been submitted almost 2 months ago?

 

If a prof can't take on the responsibilities of a lab and the students that come with it, then maybe they shouldn't have a lab. The students are your subordinates and your responsibility, you can't just not care when they come to you. I honestly have never heard of such negligence. My university has an extensive research program and most profs are not only lab supervisors, but profs, and also chairs on various national and international committees. I have yet to see one of them leave two papers aside for almost two months. And generally, at least where I am, much of the funding is provided through the university or the government. And its based on the size and success of a lab.

[BluEyeL]

What quarter million grant did you get and how can my students get one? Is this an NSF fellowship, or you're doing biology and getting foundation fellowships? Anyway, good for you on that.

[preraph]

I think you should tell them you're too busy to take time out for a party. If they want to do that, they need to do it during lab hours at the lab.

[MissTrudy]

What quarter million grant did you get and how can my students get one? Is this an NSF fellowship, or you're doing biology and getting foundation fellowships? Anyway, good for you on that.

 

It wasn't me who got it (I wish!) it was my lab mate. It's an internal grant that our university has established to encourage collaboration across the different schools of the university, and her dissertation project is a perfect fit. We are all super proud of her!

 

If a prof can't take on the responsibilities of a lab and the students that come with it, then maybe they shouldn't have a lab. The students are your subordinates and your responsibility, you can't just not care when they come to you. I honestly have never heard of such negligence.

 

This is exactly how we (the students in my lab, and myself) feel. It's like you were in on previous conversations we've had.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that a lot is going on with her that I don't know about, in addition to what I do know. She is doing government consulting and administrative work at our university, and has recently come out and said that she enjoys that more than research. Which is fine, it's her career. But she's neglecting her current responsibilities and it's confusing for all of us because she is very adamant about getting more students even though she's clearly moved away from research these past three years. The current lab setup is not sustainable and she refuses to acknowledge this. It's going to hurt the students more than her because she's already established and switching directions in her career, moving away from research. She doesn't have any major grants to support students, and has actually said she isn't interested in writing large grants anymore. Students can and should find at least some funding for their PhD and it's actually pretty common in my field. But she wants students to do research utilizing the most expensive techniques in our field, on exotic systems in far flung places. To top it off she prefers students coming straight from undergrad over students with tech experience or master's degrees. She's living in a fantasy world, as these things do not usually add up to success for students. It's hard for a student coming straight from undergrad to see that, especially because our university is well-respected, as is she and our department.

 

At this point it doesn't impact me much because I am basically done, so I'm just stressing out about the papers I need to submit and mentioning all of this other stuff, but it does suck for the younger students and future students. There are two students in our lab who are clearly drowning, both are third years and it's been like this for a while but she is only seeing it now, even though I've expressed concern about them since day 1 (I am sort of her spy ). No one wants new students and a few of the current students (not me) are actively pushing prospective students away. It's not good at all and when she finds out/if she finds out, she's going to be pissed. I am happily uninvolved (though I do agree that she doesn't need more students)!

 

I'm venting, but it's the only thing I feel like I can do without risking my relationship with her and potentially putting my future in jeopardy. It's quite a s

 

BlueEyeL, maybe since you're a professor you have some perspective on what, if anything, can be done? I think/hope that she will eventually stop taking students, and that prospective students will be dissuaded from the lab by the others in my lab.

[BluEyeL]

I was thinking you were whiny, not because you're frustrated with your professor not reading your papers, but with the fact that, due to this unfortunate situation, you'd think of skipping a party that is given for your departure. And also, because I know for a fact that students don't grasp what it means to be a professor and often make very uninformed judgements. I know for a fact, because I was a grad student and I was talking to other grad students and we were talking nonsense most of the time.

 

The undergrad up there, undergrads are even more far removed from reality. Research funding is not "given" by anyone in the US based on "performance". It's very competitive and funding rates are between 5 and 10%. It's a huge deal and extremely difficult to get. If you're and undergraduate at a major US institution and think that someone is giving funding to labs based on some mysterious criteria, you're wrong. But why do I bother.

 

Trudy, I don't have advice because based on your rant, I really don't understand the picture, other than that you'd like her to pay more attention to students and you disagree on how she's balancing her work load. In any case, I'd be hard pressed to take advice from my graduate students on how many students should I or should I not take and what should I or shouldn't do.

 

I know for a fact that the more senior and successful someone gets, the less time they have for students. Papers not being read for YEARS is something I encounter pretty often. Not reading two papers in a few months is nothing out of the ordinary at all, despite what you all seem to think. Agreed it's not a good thing. It's a bad thing. I am not guilty of this, but I know that if my lab was larger, I would surely be. That's what the drawbacks are.

 

My advice is not to worry about your advisor's business and complain and worry about the future generations. Instead, I'd go every week and ask her about your own papers, until she reads them. That's what I tell my students. Please come often and nag and nag and nag so I will give it priority. Because if you don't nag me, someone else will and I'll make a decision to do that task first.

 

I am not quite believing the story on her not having funding but doing expensive research. Students can come with their own funding but usually that involves a fellowship of sorts. Expensive research, in terms of equipment access and supplies have to come from other funds. If students are still coming to her with their own funding, it means she's a name in her field and you all benefit for working in her lab rather than in a no-name lab.

 

According to your theory, nobody should have more than 5 students. I worked in a lab with 30 students. Nobody had individual attention. You can't tell someone to limit the number of students they get, that's not your place. If you don't like working in a large lab, with the drawbacks that comes from that situation, then students should work for a small lab, of a P.I. who has a lot of time.

 

In general, while I understand your frustration, you also should know your place, and you're not in a position to judge and give advice to your advisor. I would not take it, and I'd find it rude. All you could talk to me about is YOU, your papers, and your career. Not blah blah blah about what YOU think I should do. You'll get to do that when you get a faculty position and you are so successful that you get to mentor more junior faculty. Then you get to mentor other professors, not now. You don't get to mentor your advisor, it doesn't work that way. She has a department head and senior faculty that are giving her advice and working with her. The rest of it is petty gossip of employees that always think they're better and smarter than their boss. Only they're not.

Edited November 2, 2014 by BluEyeL

[MissTrudy]

All of her students have external funding (there are 6 of us btw). If we don't have it, the department pays for the first 3 years and the PI is supposed to pay for the last two. One student didn't have external funding and she tried to force him out in four years even though he had no publications...she told him he was ready...once he got some external funding though, her tune changed, she wanted to keep him for another year and said nothing else to him about graduating.

 

We do not have any access to required, expensive equipment in her lab, because she doesn't have that expensive equipment. When I started she promised she was going to invest in that equipment for her lab. She promised two other cohorts of students too, after me. But she never did. Instead, she tells her students to use equipment that belongs to other labs, which works, but isn't ideal, as those labs have post-docs and grad students who need that equipment too. Every single other lab at our university doing these things has the equipment, except for us.

 

It took her one year to finally buy us a new imaging system after the old one was breaking, we were contemplating using one that belonged to another lab, and a few people (not me) expressed concern about their personal safety as there are greener alternatives available now.

 

She was hesitant because it was expensive, according to her. It cost about $1500 total. new, not refurbished. I don't know how much she has in her unrestricted funds and it's not my place to know. It's just weird that she made a big deal about spending so little, if money is not an issue.

 

I definitely think PIs can successfully have more than 5 students. But you need to be organized, whether you have 1 student or 100 students. If you're not organized it's going to be difficult for everyone in the group, that includes the PI.

 

I'm visiting a lab right now with about 30 students. The PI is a really big deal. Constantly publishing in the highest impact journals of our field. Super busy; I've had about 2 conversations with him since I got here in September, and I don't even know if he remembers my name. This lab also has 3 techs, 10 research assistants, 30 post-docs, and a PI who delegates. There is structure and multiple people to go to for advice. But everyone still has to answer to him. He has to sign off on the paper before it is submitted to Nature. His students constantly email him and I was emailing him once a day, every day, before I arrived; I eventually reached him by calling him on his cell phone when it was 5am in the morning my time. So I am good at nagging. But it only works if the other person responds.

 

I don't think it's the number, it's the lack of internal structure. We have a hierarchy which superficially looks like a structure, but the projects have diverged so much that as a senior student, I can't help a lot of the younger students because the theoretical basis of their projects differs from my area of expertise significantly. So the internal structure that we have is faulty, partly because my advisor wants everyone working on different things, and partly because the younger students didn't realize the issues with this until it was too late and they had made significant investments in their project.

 

Lab meetings are like a 90 minute public conversation between my advisor and the presenter, with a few random comments from other students. I've relied significantly on outside collaborations for my dissertation, and it has been wonderful for me. But at the end of the day I still have to answer to her. But she isn't picking up the phone. answering email. I've left her text messages and voicemails before too. I use both of her secretaries to put things on her calendar for me and they also help me remind her (she suggested I do this, I'm not crazy) So believe me, I am a good nagger. The only thing I haven't done (and will not do!) is use her children or husband to get messages to her. I might have to resort to bribing her with gifts, though.

Edited November 2, 2014 by MissTrudy

[BluEyeL]

I really never heard of a department that pays 3 years of funding and the PI has to only pay for 2. I don't think that exists, really. I heard of departments that pay 1 year, while the grad students do lab rotations. That's mostly in Biological Sciences.

 

I'm in Engineering and in my department the PI has to pay for all years. If the PI doesn't have funding, yes, the Department pays, but these are very rare occurrences as they won't let you take a student unless you have funding for them. The P.I. doesn't want to be in a situation when they have to go to the Department Head and admit they can't pay the student and the Department has to. The point is to bring funding. Funding is very hard to bring in. Very hard. You have to write 8-10 proposals per year to get one. NSF funding is lousy, peanuts. NIH funding is much better but we in Engineering don't really have access to that. So the focus of my own activity is writing proposals. When I write proposals I close my door for 2-3 weeks and cancel all non-emergency meetings, except for the group meeting. We don't do presentations at the group meeting, unless necessary for someone to practice. We just discuss what's new, what are the needs.

 

I had 9 grad students until very recently and it gets difficult to handle. I technically still have 9, but one left a year early and will finish up while working at Los Alamos, while the other, I'm giving her to another professor (that'll be her third advisor) because she's of the eye rolling/shoulder shrugging variety, which I don't appreciate. So she's gonna get just a Masters with me, but I'm not counting her anymore.

 

When a lab goes above 5-7 students there is a need for postdocs to act as advisers for subgroups. That requires a ****load of funding. So I see still funding as the biggest hurdle.

 

I really can't know the situation of your lab, because I don't really think you know it yourself clearly, but in any case, but the only thing you can do is ask for what you need over and over again, and give no attitude. Not going to a party/thinking of not going is just pouting and is never justified no matter what the P.I. is doing, unless they're abusive. She doesn't sound abusive to me. I had a very abusive advisor, you haven't met the advisor from hell to know that your issues are important but not impossible to overcome. Just worry about your own performance and future and let your PI take care of her own thing and other people take care of their own problems.

 

Anyway, good luck to you and remember: never pout and be entitled in academia, that'll follow you around.

[MissTrudy]

That's how our funding was explained to us by the admins in our department. It's worth noting a lot of people get external funding and we're required to apply for NSF GRFPs during our first two years. I'm in biology, and while I'm not in the biomedical track, the department gets NIH training grants that benefits all of us, even those who do nothing related to medicine. , So I think that's why the department coughs up so much money, because they get a lot back and there's NIH funding, but I honestly don't know the sources. I just accept my stipend check like a good poor grad student!

 

I agree that it all comes down to $$$ in the end. The lab group I'm working with now has more money than I've ever seen and probably will ever see, it's impossible to compare my home lab to this lab fairly.

 

I appreciate your advice, insight, and words of encouragement! I know she's not the advisor from hell (my friend who left with a Master's had one of that variety) but it can be frustrating as you can probably imagine.

[CrystalCastles]

The undergrad up there, undergrads are even more far removed from reality. Research funding is not "given" by anyone in the US based on "performance". It's very competitive and funding rates are between 5 and 10%. It's a huge deal and extremely difficult to get. If you're and undergraduate at a major US institution and think that someone is giving funding to labs based on some mysterious criteria, you're wrong. But why do I bother.

 

Idk why you felt the need to be rude, but I'm in Canada, and I didn't know US and Canada operate on different systems. Sorry.

 

I do know how the system in my country works, thanks.