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Abusive Relationships - does it take two?


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Old 10th April 2011, 2:53 PM   #16
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They can do it by ignoring you, for example.
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Old 10th April 2011, 2:57 PM   #17
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They first cause you harm, then deny it, then dismiss how harmful it is, then ignore you, but in such a way as to make it obvious that they are ignoring you.

It's a coping mechanism. They know they've been abusive, either by intention or by neglect, but they want to whitewash over it. In fact, they often feel they're being abused.

You see how this abuse model works?
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Old 10th April 2011, 3:03 PM   #18
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One way to counter such unhealthy, maladaptive behaviour is to point it out and how it makes you feel. Then the other person can reflect on the affect she or he has on others.
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Old 10th April 2011, 3:07 PM   #19
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But then, at the end of the day, you can call it quits, leave them to their delusions and hope they don't do it to someone else in the future.
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Old 10th April 2011, 3:24 PM   #20
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Yes you did and yes I did. Verbal abuse is, well, abuse. If I said, when to my lover, "let's ****" that wouldn't be abusive, despite it being a word of Saxon origin that the Norman's deemed too common for them, thus being "rude". If I tell you to f*ck off for being a c*nt then I am using these words to offend you, hence it is abuse.
No I didn't imply anything and no, you haven't abused me. I don't feel either offended or abused by your words so it's not abuse.

You are obviously upset by what I posted and you are retaliating. Fair enough. I don't think it's necessary to use foul language to do that and it's certainly not how I would respond, but each to their own. I didn't intentionally upset you and I have apologised, there's really nothing more I can do.

You obviously disagree with what I'm saying and, again, you have every right to disagree. This is just my personal understanding and belief about abusive relationships - I certainly didn't intend to present it as a 'model'. It's an opinion nothing more.
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Old 10th April 2011, 3:58 PM   #21
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LittleTiger, you indeed need to research on the topic of 'Females over Males abuse' as your knowledge is close to none. You don't see much across the media, and you think in Domestic Violence always occurs by males over females. The harsh reality is that, there are many males being abused in the society by their female partners. They themselves are not interested to accept this reality, then how can they seek some support. They feel humiliated, and want to live in the hole. This situation is far more dangerous then you can imagine.

As I said earlier, abuse is abuse, no matter which gender is the aggressor and which gender is the victim. We should come out of this 'Genderism', forget about 'Feminism' and 'Masculism'. We should simply help the victims and remove the social crimes as much as we can do.
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Old 10th April 2011, 4:34 PM   #22
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LittleTiger, you indeed need to research on the topic of 'Females over Males abuse' as your knowledge is close to none. You don't see much across the media, and you think in Domestic Violence always occurs by males over females. The harsh reality is that, there are many males being abused in the society by their female partners. They themselves are not interested to accept this reality, then how can they seek some support. They feel humiliated, and want to live in the hole. This situation is far more dangerous then you can imagine.

As I said earlier, abuse is abuse, no matter which gender is the aggressor and which gender is the victim. We should come out of this 'Genderism', forget about 'Feminism' and 'Masculism'. We should simply help the victims and remove the social crimes as much as we can do.
If I have offended anyone with my post then I apologise. I admit to knowing very little about women abusing men although I do know a man who was abused by his ex-partner, so I know that it happens and I did not intend to imply that it didn't.

Clearly, my post was badly worded but I can't go back and change it so it will have to stand as it is.

I do believe that everything I said about men abusing women is true. If it is also true for women abusing men then I am very sorry for those men who are experiencing it. I'm sure there are a lot of women in the world who can be just as frightening as a man, especially with a weapon in their hand.

The point of my post was not about who abuses who, it was about whether both people are to blame for the abuse. I am sure there are many cases where the dynamics in a relationship gets very nasty on both sides but that isn't necessarily abuse. Some people fight and argue and call each other names as a normal part of a 'happy' relationship - I don't believe that's abuse.

In my experience, 'abuse' is about power and control so one person must necessarily be the perpetrator.

Last edited by LittleTiger; 10th April 2011 at 4:37 PM..
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Old 10th April 2011, 5:07 PM   #23
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I don't think we can label and simplify abusive relationships. Media and history give the impression that men are/were the abusers holding the power and control in the relationship, but times are changing and I feel at least in our society it is becoming less about gender dominance and dog eat dog, and more about gender equality. Women weren't treated as equals through most of human history, which automatically made men more powerful, but now depending on where you go a women have just as many rights and restrictions as men do.

So in todays society, I don't think it has much to do with gender. Women can be just as heartless and nasty as men, the only difference is because of gender roles men are usually even more humiliated by it then women and try to keep it to themselves.

So what I think at least is it entirely depends on the people in the relationship. There may be one dominant presence with all the power and control, or there could be a struggle for it because maybe both parties are "abusers" in one way or another. So maybe in some relationships it does take two.
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Old 10th April 2011, 5:37 PM   #24
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Typical man; typical wedding picture; not so typical ending, where the man was immersed in various acids reportedly while alive and 'cooked' in them, by his wife (and a male accomplice), the nice lady in the wedding picture. She was a member of our local business community, a research chemical scientist who ran her own chemical business. He was an administrator at a local hospital. She made about twice his income and they lived very comfortably. Friends described him as Mr. Mom, who tended to the kids, and his wife as the 'assertive' one who worked the long hours. 21 years of marriage ended in a blue plastic barrel.

The genders could easily have been reversed. But they weren't. One anecdote, with some of the players known to me. There are plenty more. Did it take two for there to be abuse in their relationship? You betcha. Both people played their roles. Both had choices and made choices. It ended horrifically but could have ended (or not) a million other ways.
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Old 10th April 2011, 6:00 PM   #25
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So in todays society, I don't think it has much to do with gender. Women can be just as heartless and nasty as men, the only difference is because of gender roles men are usually even more humiliated by it then women and try to keep it to themselves.
I agree that women can be just as heartless and nasty and I can understand men being more humiliated. Unfortunately, along with all the men who don't report abuse because of humiliation or fear there are also women who don't report abuse for the same reason so, whilst I admit to not knowing the statistics in either case, they are never going to give a clear picture of any gender bias - if there is one.

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So what I think at least is it entirely depends on the people in the relationship. There may be one dominant presence with all the power and control, or there could be a struggle for it because maybe both parties are "abusers" in one way or another. So maybe in some relationships it does take two.
I see your point Pete but I don't understand how it can be termed 'abuse' if there is a power struggle. If one person expects to have power in a relationship and the other person refuses to allow them to take control how is that an abusive relationship. For abuse to take place there has to be a victim - doesn't there?

As I see it there are three possibilities.

1) The 'intended' victim may refuse to accept the abuse by being assertive so abuse doesn't occur and the two people may have a successful relationship.

2) The intended victim can't stand up to the abuser and gradually loses power and control as the abuser takes over - this is domestic abuse as I understand it.

3) Both people try to abuse each other and take control of the relationship but if neither succeeds it just turns into a nasty relationship. If neither of you has the power and neither of you is the victim, I don't see how that's abusive. Not pleasant, no, but not abusive.

Of course this goes back to the definition of what abuse is. I don't believe hurling insults at somebody and them hurling insults back is abuse - it's just a very bad relationship.
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Old 10th April 2011, 6:09 PM   #26
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I agree with some of the things you said but abuse is not as one sided across gender lines as you think. I remember my mother hitting my father, throwing things at him, spitting at him and almost anything else you can think of while he yelled back he never once laid a hand on her. In face she used to scream at him for not being man enough to hit her back.

The relationship with my ex was very similar. She used to hit me and throw things at me and once snuck up from behind and held a knife to my throat. I also got called a wimp for not hitting her.

I think that the motivations for abuse in both genders tend to be the same though.
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Old 10th April 2011, 6:11 PM   #27
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Of course this goes back to the definition of what abuse is. I don't believe hurling insults at somebody and them hurling insults back is abuse - it's just a very bad relationship.
Actually it is....
This is the power and control wheel of domestic violence
While it talks about Male privilege it isn't only the males doing the abusing..

http://www.turningpointservices.org/...ol%20Wheel.htm

By the way...
In my first marriage I was an abused husband. I can attest to the fact that physical violence can come from the woman's side too..
The first time she punched me closed fist in the mouth was while I was driving us to a breakfast with her daughter in the car.
I told nobody..

This might also be helpful
http://www.turningpointservices.org/...icviolence.htm
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Old 10th April 2011, 6:15 PM   #28
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Typical man; typical wedding picture; not so typical ending, where the man was immersed in various acids reportedly while alive and 'cooked' in them, by his wife (and a male accomplice), the nice lady in the wedding picture. She was a member of our local business community, a research chemical scientist who ran her own chemical business. He was an administrator at a local hospital. She made about twice his income and they lived very comfortably. Friends described him as Mr. Mom, who tended to the kids, and his wife as the 'assertive' one who worked the long hours. 21 years of marriage ended in a blue plastic barrel.

The genders could easily have been reversed. But they weren't. One anecdote, with some of the players known to me. There are plenty more. Did it take two for there to be abuse in their relationship? You betcha. Both people played their roles. Both had choices and made choices. It ended horrifically but could have ended (or not) a million other ways.
I didn't really want this to turn into a gender thing but I guess my first post has dictated that it would to some extent so only myself to blame for that one. I will be more careful next time.

What I don't understand, Carhill, is how both parties are to blame for what happened in these cases and how can anybody even know what the full story was between them? Abuse happens behind closed doors and the abuser puts on a front in public so that most outsiders don't believe it's happening.

He may have ended up dead, but how do you know that he hadn't been cruel to her for 21 years and she finally took her revenge? Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying that's what happened I am just suggesting it as a possibility. Unless you're one of the two people concerned you can't possibly know for sure - that's the nature of abusive relationships.

Assuming that he was the victim though - how was he then to blame for what his wife did? If he was controlled by her and afraid to leave, how is that, in any way, his fault?

Maybe I'm being a bit thick here but I really don't understand.
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Old 10th April 2011, 6:23 PM   #29
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Both people are responsible for their role. One of those roles is that of abuser and one is that of the abused. The abused is not responsible for the actions of the abuser, rather for their own actions. Without the abused, there would be no abuser, hence it does take two.

Regarding Tim and Larissa, you'd have to read the court transcripts and eyewitness accounts. That particular case is likely beyond the scope of this thread, although illustrative of potential dynamics.
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Old 10th April 2011, 6:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zakfar View Post
LittleTiger, you indeed need to research on the topic of 'Females over Males abuse' as your knowledge is close to none. You don't see much across the media, and you think in Domestic Violence always occurs by males over females. The harsh reality is that, there are many males being abused in the society by their female partners. They themselves are not interested to accept this reality, then how can they seek some support. They feel humiliated, and want to live in the hole. This situation is far more dangerous then you can imagine.

As I said earlier, abuse is abuse, no matter which gender is the aggressor and which gender is the victim. We should come out of this 'Genderism', forget about 'Feminism' and 'Masculism'. We should simply help the victims and remove the social crimes as much as we can do.
Totally agree. There are many men who get abused also and are too shy to speak up for fear their story won't be believed.
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