Why is this such a problem for men?

[miss-alex]

It's been a long time since I've been online, so here I am again, a bit puzzled this time. When I posted here last time, I was about to get married, but because of my career, that did not happen and I am still dating. But it's kinda hard at 31, and as a diplomat. My job is always a huge issue as I've lived in around 11 different countries in the past 9 years. I wish I was a man - the wives give everything up and follow their husbands, but is there a man who would follow ME around the world as a diplomatic spouse/partner/husband/whatever? Yes, it means giving up your proper job, your networks, family, friends, places...but if you really LOVED a woman, wouldn't you do it???

 

 

Most men told me upfront that they wouldn't. And some months ago, I started dating my good friend of 10 years. Very adventurous himself, avid traveler, works in a flexible field (IT)...he would sometimes visit me on my past postings, we'd have a great time, wander around the cities, have sex, then exchange messages every day, etc. I knew he had "proper" girlfriends in between, but he did not cheat on them with me. When we met, he even said that "if a city becomes boring for me, I'd just move somewhere else." So I thought, great, this is it, found him! But no. As we got more serious, he told me that he could never be with a diplomat, because that is just for submissive men, the ones that like to be given orders, that like to "obey" women, and he is not that type...what the ***?!

 

 

I just don't understand! Where is the difference? The difference between a loyal diplomatic wife and a husband? Didn't these men just love me enough or am I not worth to be with? It's my job, it's part of my life and a part of who I am, so I want a man who can accept "the whole package"...and not just say, I love you, but...You love me, but not enough to move with me, to really be with me? Is is intimidating, emasculating for men to do this? Why is it such an issue, what do you think?

 

 

I am hoping to get some ideas about this, some new ones that I might not have thought about, because I am just so unhappy about my romantic life...

[carhill]

IMO, it's a matter of finding a man with a mobile career, or who is retired, and enjoys the life which being married to a diplomat, a traveling one, brings. Add in your preferences in men and, generally, that's a pretty small dating pool. Why? Because he'd have to be flexible enough to move around at a moment's notice, educated and cultured enough to be accepted socially at important diplomatic functions, and of course attractive enough to inspire the glue which holds relationships together.

 

Here's the wiki page of such a man. Note his lineage and legacy, besides being married to a woman recognized around the world for both her diplomacy and contributions to cinema for 55 years until his death about a decade ago.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Alden_Black

[loveweary11]

A lot of men won't fit well with a life of travel, but others of us are already living that life.

 

This seems to be a more common problem than one would think.

 

I have trouble finding women who travel full time.

You have trouble finding men who travel full time.

There is a pilot on here that complains about the same thing.

 

We are the exceptions in life.

 

The answer lies in figuring out how to meet people without baggage that are interested in seeing the world.

 

Sadly, I still hunt for the same...

 

You need to meet othet like minded travelers. But where?

 

Wish I knew.

 

PS: It's probably not you or your job. It's travel itself. Few of us are wired for it.

Edited February 6, 2016 by loveweary11

[bachdude]

I think for a lot of career minded people (men or women) a career is more than just a job. It's a part of who they are. They've spent a great deal of time working up the ladder and find a certain amount of their own identity there. To give it all up is like losing a part of themselves.

[road]

From caveman days to these days boys grow up to be men and have a job.

 

 

Boys were not raised to be househusbands.

 

 

For you to find a man to take pride in how white he gets his whites, home décor, menu planning, will be hard.

 

 

Men do not want to be housewives. They want a housewife. You are fighting an uphill battle. Good luck.

 

 

As to Mr Shirley Temple he was did intelligence work and most likely continued to do such work while he was married to his ambassador wife. Un the cover of being Mrs Ambassador's husband.

[preraph]

I agree you'll probably have to end up with a guy who is already mobile or doesn't have to be tied to his job. A military man, a rock star or a mogul, maybe. And you probably just are not going to be able to have the picket fence if you are moving all the time. There are a lot of men with jobs where they travel a lot, but the likelihood of finding one who wants to just stay home and wait for you is a narrower field. These days, not many people, male or female, want to do that.

[ShatteredLady]

There's another VERY related subject which is being discussed on the forums at the moment.... Stay at home Mum's & alimony etc. Opinions seem to be pretty divided.

 

If I were a man I'd be just what you want!

 

I'm educated, had a very successful career, would support & drive your career for you, recommending & investigating things that could help you achieve your ambitions. Help with your study, write reports for you.

 

Study & keep-up on social & entertainment interests in each country to help us 'fit-in' & appear educated wherever we live.

 

Throw dinner parties etc to help you network. Design & run a beautiful home. Raise our children & educate them in cultural differences, languages etc. as we travel around the world. Organize relocation & build a network of friends so our whole family had a fulfilling social life.

 

Is that the sort of thing you'd like from a partner who loves, cherishes & wants the very best for you?

 

Many women, myself included do all of these things & more. For me it was never a negative sacrifice. My families fulfillment & happiness makes me happy & fulfilled.

 

 

The problem seems to come if in 10-20 years you get bored, meet some guy at work who sparks your interest & suddenly I'm not what you so desperately want anymore.

 

According to many here (I don't know how representative of 'normal' this selection of people is) I will of made a HUGE mistake with my entire life. Apparently, you are genetically predisposed to loose all respect for me as a man! It's only 'natural' that you will start to see me as weak & a looser & chase a REAL MAN that you can admire!

 

If you're like many here (male or female) you will feel swindled out of your money if you have to financially support me while I get back on my feet after making the choices that YOU need to have your career & M & family that YOU want.

 

You're not only looking for a partner who's willing to do all of these things for you. You need someone who has the kind of career that will thrive whilst following you around the world.

Would you be happy having your kids in daycare 10+ hours a day so BOTH of your careers have complete focus?

 

I'm just linking the 2 subjects in the hope that people will see the impossible dreams that they are REALLY aspiring for. Can we really "have it all"?

A partner happy to follow YOUR dreams for you. Sacrificing their career, dreams & earning potential AND happy to be dumped, scrimping & saving to survive in a tiny apartment trying to build a life for themselves after being out of the workforce for the most important career years.

 

As a member here advised "NEVER be a stay at home parent!".

 

....or accept that your career is BOTH you & your future partners career. Your money & lifestyle is BOTH of yours AND if you run off with a shiny new exciting partner REMEMBER how much you desperately wanted a love to make these sacrifices for you & share nicely!!

 

....or, if/when you do find your person, your love, remember what they've done for YOU & appreciate them! Work on your marriage as hard as you work on your career.

 

I hope you do get to "Have it all". It's possible. I know a couple of stay at home Dad's & they do fantastically well in an incredibly hard, often thankless job that has zero career prospects. They love their lives.... I hope that they never get dumped! In this day & age it takes such courage to live that kind of life.

 

I know that I feel incredibly vulnerable. I never regretted my choices until my H had an affair. Now I feel very stupid. Honestly I wouldn't advise anyone to take the risk of dedicating their life to you. I'm cynical now...even more so since I've read that many don't believe that SAHM/SAHD deserve financial support because they made their own stupid choices in life!

Edited February 7, 2016 by ShatteredLady

[miss-alex]

There's another VERY related subject which is being discussed on the forums at the moment.... Stay at home Mum's & alimony etc. Opinions seem to be pretty divided.

 

If I were a man I'd be just what you want!

 

I'm educated, had a very successful career, would support & drive your career for you, recommending & investigating things that could help you achieve your ambitions. Help with your study, write reports for you.

 

Study & keep-up on social & entertainment interests in each country to help us 'fit-in' & appear educated wherever we live.

 

Throw dinner parties etc to help you network. Design & run a beautiful home. Raise our children & educate them in cultural differences, languages etc. as we travel around the world. Organize relocation & build a network of friends so our whole family had a fulfilling social life.

 

Is that the sort of thing you'd like from a partner who loves, cherishes & wants the very best for you?

 

Many women, myself included do all of these things & more. For me it was never a negative sacrifice. My families fulfillment & happiness makes me happy & fulfilled.

 

 

The problem seems to come if in 10-20 years you get bored, meet some guy at work who sparks your interest & suddenly I'm not what you so desperately want anymore.

 

According to many here (I don't know how representative of 'normal' this selection of people is) I will of made a HUGE mistake with my entire life. Apparently, you are genetically predisposed to loose all respect for me as a man! It's only 'natural' that you will start to see me as weak & a looser & chase a REAL MAN that you can admire!

 

If you're like many here (male or female) you will feel swindled out of your money if you have to financially support me while I get back on my feet after making the choices that YOU need to have your career & M & family that YOU want.

 

You're not only looking for a partner who's willing to do all of these things for you. You need someone who has the kind of career that will thrive whilst following you around the world.

Would you be happy having your kids in daycare 10+ hours a day so BOTH of your careers have complete focus?

 

I'm just linking the 2 subjects in the hope that people will see the impossible dreams that they are REALLY aspiring for. Can we really "have it all"?

A partner happy to follow YOUR dreams for you. Sacrificing their career, dreams & earning potential AND happy to be dumped, scrimping & saving to survive in a tiny apartment trying to build a life for themselves after being out of the workforce for the most important career years.

 

As a member here advised "NEVER be a stay at home parent!".

 

....or accept that your career is BOTH you & your future partners career. Your money & lifestyle is BOTH of yours AND if you run off with a shiny new exciting partner REMEMBER how much you desperately wanted a love to make these sacrifices for you & share nicely!!

 

....or, if/when you do find your person, your love, remember what they've done for YOU & appreciate them! Work on your marriage as hard as you work on your career.

 

I hope you do get to "Have it all". It's possible. I know a couple of stay at home Dad's & they do fantastically well in an incredibly hard, often thankless job that has zero career prospects. They love their lives.... I hope that they never get dumped! In this day & age it takes such courage to live that kind of life.

 

Valid point of view, probably similar to what my current man could say as to why he hates the idea of living with me.

 

Now I feel extremely selfish, because I want someone to do all this for me (not the housekeeping and dinners though, I am more of an international civil servant and we do not do embassy dinners and garden parties and work more regular hours). I've been seeing this mostly from my point of view, but looking at it this way...it seems I'd better be off alone. I don't even want to get married, because I want my partner to always have the freedom to leave if they no longer want to be with me, instead of staying because of a marriage certificate and possible divorce proceedings. I don't want to be the cause of anyone's regrets, either in marriage or in a career, so this makes me feel like I am just no marriage material, or no relationship material at all, because it involves so much personal sacrifice from someone (which is what I desperately want to avoid).

[ShatteredLady]

There's nothing wrong with serial monogamy if that's what you want. I don't have negative judgements about any variety of relationship as long as it's based on honesty.

 

Not wanting marriage because you worry someone will be with you just because they don't want divorce isn't really a great reason!

 

Honestly, deep down inside, do you want marriage? Do you want children? If you do then it can happen for you.

 

If you don't want marriage it's going to be very hard to have a long term, traditional relationship. Logistically it would be hard...visas etc.

 

Above all be truthful. It's only wrong to encourage others to make sacrifices & life changing decisions if they're based on lies.

 

As I said, I NEVER regretted my choices until the prospect of being a single parent hit me!!

 

There are all kinds of fulfilling relationships. Know what you truly want & then think about how to achieve that & make it work for you AND your partner.

 

I know a woman who was artificially inseminated twice. Has 2 children & fulltime nannies.

I know a man who travels constantly for work. He has a couple of 'special friends' who know about eachother & spend their time with him when he's in their countries.

 

....just a couple of examples.

[carhill]

it seems I'd better be off alone. I don't even want to get married, because I want my partner to always have the freedom to leave if they no longer want to be with me, instead of staying because of a marriage certificate and possible divorce proceedings. I don't want to be the cause of anyone's regrets, either in marriage or in a career, so this makes me feel like I am just no marriage material, or no relationship material at all, because it involves so much personal sacrifice from someone (which is what I desperately want to avoid).

Next time you're flying somewhere for work, strike up a conversation with any of the female FA's and ask them how they do it. Relationships in their line of work can be a challenge, especially for those bidding international. I found talking to the older active and retired ones to be especially enlightening, with the latter reflecting on how their career choice affected their relationship and family lives, for better or worse. They were among the early far-flung female careers as women gained a foothold in business and politics and were pioneers in many ways.

 

One option is to accept relationships as transitory and enjoy the time you have with each partner and then, as circumstances proscribe, move on to the next one. Instead of having one life-long partner, have a series of healthy relationships of shorter term.

[loveweary11]

More:

 

 

Shattered, I'm a fairly successful guy. Built my businesses around travel which I do because I love it, not because I have to. I have a dual US/EU citizenship which makes travel more simple.

 

I live to travel and enjoy freedom and nice locations. I'm a sort of modern day hippie, but look normal... lol.. not like a hippie. My businesses are simply money making machines that I have no real passion for. They serve a purpose, they are not passions. In my case, if I met someone in your exact situation and it went well, I'd be overjoyed to sort of follow their career around the globe and eek out my own entrepreneurial ventures as I went.

 

There are guys like us out here. People who enjoy living in various countries for extended periods of time, who have no work ties, no desire to sit in one city forever.

 

Maybe we need a dating site focused on this type of lifestyle because let me tell you, I have the same problems finding likeminded people.

 

A lot of posters here, bless them and all, just don't understand this kind of life.When I've asked similar questions to yours, I got similar responses. "Stop traveling", "no one wants to leave their career", etc...

 

But we are out here. There are at least 3 of us on this board right now.

 

There is hope, but it's so very difficult to find like minded people in traditional dating.

 

The general public just doesn't get it. They can't wrap their minds around travel as a lifestyle.

 

We are out here though. Don't be discouraged. I'd do everything you are describing in a heartbeat if I met someone to do it with... and I'm a guy.

[Httm]

As others have suggested, the problem is that they would be putting their entire financial future on your back. If it ended for any reason, they might be screwed in the job market and in income from years of sporadic work. Even with marriage involved(and how would it get there if you are always travelling), it is risky for them. I think men might be less idealistic than women and maybe this is why they are less likely, combined with other societal norms.

 

If you found someone who is already independently wealthy, I think that'd work well though!

[Httm]

Valid point of view, probably similar to what my current man could say as to why he hates the idea of living with me.

 

Now I feel extremely selfish, because I want someone to do all this for me (not the housekeeping and dinners though, I am more of an international civil servant and we do not do embassy dinners and garden parties and work more regular hours). I've been seeing this mostly from my point of view, but looking at it this way...it seems I'd better be off alone. I don't even want to get married, because I want my partner to always have the freedom to leave if they no longer want to be with me, instead of staying because of a marriage certificate and possible divorce proceedings. I don't want to be the cause of anyone's regrets, either in marriage or in a career, so this makes me feel like I am just no marriage material, or no relationship material at all, because it involves so much personal sacrifice from someone (which is what I desperately want to avoid).

 

This is actually one of the very few instances where I'd actually recommend marriage. It would give the man some insurance so he doesn't lose decades of his financial life if things go bad. Without marriage, in this case, he'd be screwed.

[Phoenician]

I ca easily see that in your case marriage is a burden rather than joy .

 

You want a man , and a real man will not be able to be a housekeeper and quit his job , stay with you while you jump from one place to another .

 

 

If one of the partners quit their life and sacrifice , there is a high possibility that one day they will regret it , simply because when they sacrificed they expect a lot in return .

 

my advise to you is to live your time , live your life in a monogomus form ,and avoid having expectations .

 

You are lucky lady , why do you need to get married ?

 

enjoy your life and , shine venus shine , and if you have a stop by Middleseast , let's have a coffee together hehe

[Cherryz]

Well i admire that you this young and female and successful having such a job.:cool:

 

But im sure you thought about this issue way before you accepted this position.

 

Have you try to imagine what this mean to someone you have a relationship with?

Lets leave the woman/man part away a second.

This is not a small thing you are asking. Beside the person dont know if its worth it to make all this sacrifices especially if you both only meet in real once in a while. Because to know someone and to grow to each other you have to spent time together and experience each others good and bad and so on.

 

And i can understand why a man dont want this.And also if a woman dont. Man see themselves as providers and want to be useful in your life. Doing the "man"things.

Not what is left for them to do.

It also happen that successful women many times are not easy for man to be with. They can be pretty bossy, takes the "mens"position,demanding, and hard to handle so far that the men dont see what his value is in the relationship.

Whatever it is, try to put yourself in the other persons shoes.

Instead of thinking of he have to agree with my life style and thats it.

Because just as you have dreams and job and all of that, they have theirs to! It shouldn't be just about you.

Everyone's emotions, needs, and wants matter!

So its important to have that kind of mindset if you want a healthy relationship.

 

If this job is not doing it for you in your love life maybe you should think about a different position. Or to just do it for a while and then get something more local.

Beside if you become a mom this would be for sure a much bigger issue for your whole family.

 

Or you should try to date people that have kind of same position or kind of positions as you.

They may have more of same mindset maybe, But still it is a huge sacrifice for anyone that really want you.

Stability is important and a healthy thing to have.

 

Beside you at a certain point you will retire and someone else will do this job.

How sad will it be if you end up all lonely and with no place to call home ,and with just a nice career history?

[Jersey born raised]

Part of the reason you are having trouble is a

deeply ingrained belief is few women at their core will accept this type of relationship. Read some threads where the women have a stable job and the husband is unemployed forbad long period of time. It is not so much as the money he earns as it is about the lack of security it's absence makes her feel in the future.

 

A lot of a man's sense of self worth is based on his ability to provide. To forego that as a SAHD creates a huge doubt in their mind. I can not provide link put I read a study showing men in this position are more likely to cheat then those who work due to a need to validate themselves.

[bachdude]

I would like to add OP that there are some jobs that allow men to live anywhere. All they need is a computer, an internet connection, and phone service. The days of having to work in a specific office in a specific location is not as necessary as it once was.

[craw]

[]

 

Are you meeting different types of men or the same type of a guy? Like someone who is Cauasian from US etc.

 

I think you are just meeting boys and not real men who can handle a strong, independent woman.

 

It is hard to get out there and meet different people, I struggle with this all the time.

[Emilia]

You would have to be a very exciting, charismatic woman to pull that off since the man's social life would revolve around you. The fact that you think someone who loves you should make that sacrifice speaks volumes IMO. To be honest, stationed in some ****ty country with only embassy staff for company would be the dullest lifestyle ever. Not even close to real travel. Lots of politics, probably worse than the army. Bleh

[Just a Guy]

Hi Miss- Alex, I wonder if you are from the US or from a European nation? As a diplomat I would think you would have to get clearances from your Ministry before you marry anyone not from your own nation. Apart from that a diplomats post is such that the person you marry would probably require security clearance. This being the case have you thought of finding someone suitable from your own service? Another possibility is that you could marry a writer/ author who could travel around with you and busy himself with working on his novels while you were busy with your official work.

A third possibility is that you marry a career person who does not stay with you round the clock but joins you when he can get a spot of leave and vice versa. I have heard of such arrangements and they seem to work well. Of course the possibility of cheating is rather high in such cases but then it is a two way street. If he can cheat then so van you. It is a risk you would have to live with if you are really keen on marrying. Just a few thoughts from my end! Warm wishes.

[shet]

Doesn't seem like a hard to understand problem to me. The vast vast majority of people can not leave where they are like you want, because of their career. I've rejected moving 25 miles and 45 minutes drive away from where I am because I can't have that addition to my commute. I'd need a job over there. Despite what people seem to bandy around, including on this thread, very few job positions in a narrow area of IT based careers can be telecommuted. We still mostly have to go somewhere to work.

 

You're asking for a very rare suite of personal circumstances that I wouldn't expect you to ever succeed at finding. If there genuinely is a divorce between men and womens experience in this unusual little sector, then the question "why is this a problem for men" resolves down to the same gender role bull**** all other man v woman stuff does. You should probably ask some hard questions about what exactly it is these women happy to follow their man DO for a living, really, because I expect the answer is not very much. Well paid is it, the diplomatic sector?

[joseb]

You could try to find yourself a single "digital nomad" guy who might be happy moving less often than he probably is doing currently.

[miss-alex]

Thank you for your responses, everyone. Well, indeed, my dating pool is the size of a pea...not only because of my career and the requirements that places on my potential partners, but it also doesn't help that I am simply your average plain Jane, so most self-made millionaires and businessmen wouldn't consider dating me :-)

 

Interestingly though, the man I am currently "dating" works in IT, works from home 2 days per week, so he would be able to move with me. And I also think that a more creative, freelance job in the field would better suit his personality, especially when he is not very concerned about earning millions or about personal fulfillment (he works just to get money for his hobbies and travel in a legal way). Also, I am not the traditional diplomat but rather an international civil servant, so he would have much more personal freedom than one would think...I am more of an officer than an ambassador, thus he could avoid security clearances, etc.

 

But what I don't understand is why he said he wouldn't move - that the life of a diplomatic spouse is just for submissive men who like to follow the orders of their wives. What is submissive about moving to f***ing Dubai and having your office on a white sandy beach, because the woman you want to be with works there??!! Do men always need to make the important decisions in the relationship? Or is he just being selfish? Does he feel emasculated because he follows a woman? He says he doesn't even know why he feels that way...

 

I know you are not psychologists here, but you've always provided interesting advice, so that's why I asked.

[serial muse]

Thank you for your responses, everyone. Well, indeed, my dating pool is the size of a pea...not only because of my career and the requirements that places on my potential partners, but it also doesn't help that I am simply your average plain Jane, so most self-made millionaires and businessmen wouldn't consider dating me :-)

 

Interestingly though, the man I am currently "dating" works in IT, works from home 2 days per week, so he would be able to move with me. And I also think that a more creative, freelance job in the field would better suit his personality, especially when he is not very concerned about earning millions or about personal fulfillment (he works just to get money for his hobbies and travel in a legal way). Also, I am not the traditional diplomat but rather an international civil servant, so he would have much more personal freedom than one would think...I am more of an officer than an ambassador, thus he could avoid security clearances, etc.

 

But what I don't understand is why he said he wouldn't move - that the life of a diplomatic spouse is just for submissive men who like to follow the orders of their wives. What is submissive about moving to f***ing Dubai and having your office on a white sandy beach, because the woman you want to be with works there??!! Do men always need to make the important decisions in the relationship? Or is he just being selfish? Does he feel emasculated because he follows a woman? He says he doesn't even know why he feels that way...

 

I know you are not psychologists here, but you've always provided interesting advice, so that's why I asked.

 

Interesting, I thought from your first post that this might be the root of the issue - not travel per se, but the conceptual issue of who gets to decide where you live. The hoary old control issue, basically.

 

It's a shame that this person you're seeing frames it this way for himself. I agree with those who've pointed out - as you yourself did, to your current date - that it's not like men have to give up their careers or self-worth, if they have a mobile career. So then it just comes down to preconceptions and prejudices. One could frame this situation as, "I get to live in Dubai" or one could frame it as "I have to live in Dubai". The fact that he's the type of person to frame it as the latter - and specifically because the selection of the location is up to the woman he's dating - speaks volumes. He's just not the one for you and would make your time there miserable. Feh to him.

 

This happens all the time; in academia, they call it the "two-body" problem, when you have two academics who both need a job in the same place; if only one is available, it's still pretty rare for the woman to be the one to be the determining factor. But it's not impossible, and times they are a-changing. I'm sorry if I overlooked your age, but I do think that younger guys are more open to the idea of locating themselves somewhere for their partners, and don't see it as quite so emasculating. So there's that.

Edited February 8, 2016 by serial muse

[Miss Peach]

But what I don't understand is why he said he wouldn't move - that the life of a diplomatic spouse is just for submissive men who like to follow the orders of their wives. What is submissive about moving to f***ing Dubai and having your office on a white sandy beach, because the woman you want to be with works there??!! Do men always need to make the important decisions in the relationship? Or is he just being selfish? Does he feel emasculated because he follows a woman? He says he doesn't even know why he feels that way...

 

I know you are not psychologists here, but you've always provided interesting advice, so that's why I asked.

 

I think reading some of Dr. Pat Allen's work (or listening to her podcosts, radio shows, etc.) might be helpful for you.

 

Basically she studies the roles of the masculine and feminine (not necessarily based on gender). A lot of it is based on Carl Jung's work.

 

The idea behind it is that men and women both have masculine and feminine parts but one of those have to be dominate for each person to avoid stepping on each other and it brings the relationship downhill. You can negotiate or both briefly out of the role but you can't be stepping on each other's toes so to speak. Someone eventually needs to be the president and the other be the vice president as she puts it. She also describes what happens to be people who need to be equally both roles all the time.

 

The main part she describes is that for a masculine man they often won't want to give up their career and ability to provide. It sounds that with wanting a man to follow you that you might be playing the masculine role yourself and then wondering why the masculine men you date don't want to become feminine or submissive to you.