I say he cheated, he says he didnt ...

[confused8787]

My bf of two years and I define cheating in different ways. He sees cheating as any form of penetration. I define cheating by emotional/mental cheating as well as simply kissing or flirting extensively. I found this out the hard way. I recently found out that he has been emailing girls from craigslist etc and flirting with them in hopes they send him dirty pics. He even got their number and would flirt by text and phone with them to get them to send pics. He didn't use his real name, he used a fake. I flipped out and we had a huge 2 week dilemma about this. To me, this was cheating. He crossed my boundary by making contact with girls. It could definitely lead to something else if a connection was made! We took some time apart and he came back to me apologizing, saying he disrespected me and my values and that what he did was out of line. That he would do anything to fix it and change his habits over time because he could not see his life without me. I was still pretty mad and said it wasn't only disrespectful, it was cheating. And this is where we still djsagree. He said the way he grew up cheating amongst family and friends meant penetration. He comes from a hard background and he said things were a lot looser. I come from a well educated and richer background where cheating does happen but where my boundaries are a lot tighter.

The root problem is we disagree on our definition and beliefs in this aspect. He never crossed the penetration boundary because to HIM that's cheating but he did cross the flirting and texting boundary because to HIM that's just for pictures and is not really a boundary. I have made it super clear to HIM that what he did was cheating in my eyes and I won't let that go. He says he is willing to accept that if that's how I feel. He said he has always been this way, flirting with girls and asking for pics because it's a turn on for him, some sort of amateur porn fetish. I argued, why can't you just stick to a normal porn site?? He says it's different, there's more reality to these pics. I said the difference to me is you can't contact porn stars, but you can contact these girls.

Anyways, in the end we are still struggling and working through this. He has been informed thst our relationship is on the rocks, that he needs to put in effort and win me back and my trust again. That I need an explanation for why he did this knowing full well it was disrespectful as he puts it.

Now my concern is ... He is the best man for his cousins wedding next month. He has to plan their bachelor party and I am already freaking out. Should he not be trying to reassure me that everything will be ok? He should be. Working extra hard to make me feel at ease. Do you not agree? Or am I asking for too much?

Edited October 2, 2013 by confused8787

[Georgina CG]

Are you really asking if his behaviour is OK? Because it isn't and you know it isn't. Your boyfriend actively cheats. Best wishes.

[MrRightNow]

He sounds like a really sleezy guy. Trust him as far as you can throw him.

[confused8787]

Why doesn't he see it as cheating?? I know he didn't cross the penetration boundary for a fact. To HIM that would be cheating. He sees these pics as a form of porn. And I'm ok with porn and we had established that.

 

Plus, I believe people can change. I know I have many times with the right motivator. And he is willing to do absolutely anything to set this right. If he really wanted other girls and to sleep around, he is the type of guy to end the relationship and move on. I am technically his first long term relationship. He was a player before and he never had boundaries. Now I need to set them.

Edited October 2, 2013 by confused8787

[Got it]

You know what? It doesn't matter how he sees it. What matters is how you see it. You need to state your boundaries. If he doesn't agree, then he isn't the right person for you and you need to find one that has boundaries that more match yours and vice versa.

 

You guys are dating, it really doesn't matter who is right and wrong, it is a compatibility piece that is more important. I would strongly recommend casting that little fish loose.

[confused8787]

I agree, and he is willing to discuss the boundaries with me so we have everything out in black and white.

 

He has lived by his own boundaries for 25 years. His parents never told him what to do, frankly they didn't care, and his ex cheated on him by his definition and I am his first real relationship. He does not know how to live by someone elses boundary but is willing to change thst for me.

[emva07]

A lot of cheaters see cheating as something they are entitled to. As long as I'm with you what does it matter what I do with others? I love YOU. Selfish mentality.

 

some guys come from traditional backgrounds where their parents prolong the view that men cheat, as long as he's providing for you what does it matter?

 

I don't like that mentality one bit but some guys just think it's their god-given right.

[confused8787]

I wish that were true in this case. But his mom cheated on his dad when he was young in the way he defines cheating. and that affected him so harshly. It changed his life. Somehow I believe his view on cheating is psychologically related to thst.

[emva07]

I agree, and he is willing to discuss the boundaries with me so we have everything out in black and white.

 

He has lived by his own boundaries for 25 years. His parents never told him what to do, frankly they didn't care, and his ex cheated on him by his definition and I am his first real relationship. He does not know how to live by someone elses boundary but is willing to change thst for me.

 

At his age , the boundaries are already established. This talk is more about making you feel better than him actually reestablishing his boundaries.

He already told you what his definition is , always believe what a person tells you first, but most importantly , go by his actions.

[emva07]

I wish that were true in this case. But his mom cheated on his dad when he was young in the way he defines cheating. and that affected him so harshly. It changed his life. Somehow I believe his view on cheating is psychologically related to thst.

 

 

Oh. Thenmost definitely talking to you won't change anything. He's seen it As a child , he's been cheated on and he has already told you what his views are ? Yeah he ain't budging.

 

This runs deep

[confused8787]

How can I go by his actions? I know trust is extremely hard to rebuild. Is it even possible??

 

If he actually crossed the penetration boundary I would be out by now and not even questioning.

 

What should I be expecting of him now?

[confused8787]

Oh. Thenmost definitely talking to you won't change anything. He's seen it As a child , he's been cheated on and he has already told you what his views are ? Yeah he ain't budging.

 

This runs deep

 

I don't know. I think his love for me and for us can motivate him to change. I know he has in other ways to better fit our life together. He really cares about me and is willing to go the length. I just know it's going to be difficult.

[mercuryshadow]

I didn't even have to read your whole post. It honestly doesn't matter that what he did does not constitute for cheating, in his eyes. All this matters is: To you, it was cheating. End of story. He cannot justify his behavior by playing it down as if it were not a betrayal. It was.

 

A similar thing happened to me with a long term ex. There's no excuse. He's either operating on double standards (i.e. if the situation were reversed...) or you simply don't share the same values. He sounds awful.

[confused8787]

I didn't even have to read your whole post. It honestly doesn't matter that what he did does not constitute for cheating, in his eyes. All this matters is: To you, it was cheating. End of story. He cannot justify his behavior by playing it down as if it were not a betrayal. It was.

 

A similar thing happened to me with a long term ex. There's no excuse. He's either operating on double standards (i.e. if the situation were reversed...) or you simply don't share the same values. He sounds awful.

 

Actually he said if I kissed another guy he would be mad and feel disrespected but he would not say I cheated. He holds it true both ways. I can set my boundaries with him but they are so tight that I really wonder if he can follow them without feeling oppressed. I told him this was his out back to single life, but he said it wasn't worth losing me over.

[mercuryshadow]

Actually he said if I kissed another guy he would be mad and feel disrespected but he would not say I cheated. He holds it true both ways. I can set my boundaries with him but they are so tight that I really wonder if he can follow them without feeling oppressed. I told him this was his out back to single life, but he said it wasn't worth losing me over.

 

 

I do not see your boundaries to be overbearing or suppressive. They are pretty normal, within the context of a committed relationship.

[confused8787]

I agree! I think it's normal too. Who in their right mind thinks cheating is purely penetration ?? I mean that screams psych issues to me.

[Grumpybutfun]

I agree! I think it's normal too. Who in their right mind thinks cheating is purely penetration ?? I mean that screams psych issues to me.

 

confused:

You know the answer to this one...he defines cheating in a manner that is comfortable to him, and abhorrent to you. He gets some sort of psychological and ego payoff from flirting and doing everything except penetration, and by accepting this you are allowing him to change your value system. Move on. Not only is this universally unacceptable, but it is also morally ambiguous.

From someone who has been married for almost 20 years, I know that life has too many challenges without knowingly bringing your own to a relationship. You already are doubting whether or not you can trust him because you two are not compatible in your value system.

Best of Luck,

Grumps

[confused8787]

But what if he is willing to change his view and accept that he cheated. He is a stubborn guy but for me he would go tot he ends of the earth. And prior to me he was a player, he had several one night stands like a lot of men and women do these days. You get what you want and move on ... I am seriously his first relationship at the age of 25. He has not yet matured or found his footing, he is immature in a lot of ways.

But if he is willing to change and adapt to my ways, shoukd I not try and see if that can happen? I mean how do others recover from full blown cheating and long term affairs? It takes years but in the end it may be worth it. I don't want to have any regrets. At the same time I need to safe guard my heart. Because yea, I realize it can happen again, but I won't be putting my all into this relationship anymore. I'm just going to let the pieces fall where they may. If he wants me, he will have to bridge the gap he has formed. I am no longer helping.

 

See, even if I break up I am in no hurry to find someone else. I am.young and in no rush to get married. So giving bim a second chance while putting the relationship on a probation almost is what I am considering ...

[Silly_Girl]

It's all semantics.

 

Defining cheating in some sort of pathetic Clinton-esque effort is irrelevant. What he did was disrespectful to you and the relationship.

 

Say, as you hope, he decides you were right with *your* definition and you 'win', what do you have? A boyfriend who, at his age, should have known better and who you need to teach basic relationship standards to. It all still happened!

 

You cannot walk him through every possible scenario he might ever be faced with to teach him, like a schoolboy, right from wrong. This is the bizarre position he is putting you in, claiming not to know the rules. Does he know that going for lunch with a woman from work and hiding it from you is wrong? Or private messaging a cute girl on Facebook then quickly hiding it when you come in the room is wrong? He's expecting you to teach him all of this?!

 

He's got you exactly where he wants you now, in my view, and you're questioning yourself and your perspective instead of reacting to his behaviour. Smart guy. I'd be amazed if he has a happy ending in store for you.

 

And justification of his point of view based on his experiences is something manipulators are good at getting you to do. I know as someone did it to me for years.

 

As for 'I've nothing else in mind so might as well stay with him for now'... I think you're selling yourself short and ranking being in a (any) relationship above self-respect and peace of mind. I'm really sorry but I think you should set your standards higher than this guy.

[Carenth]

Honestly this really shouldn't even be up for discussion. You know what he did is cheating and deep down he probably knows it is as well. However it is semantics you have your standards which I think you will find matches up with the majoritys definition of what cheating is.

 

Very unlikely he will change his ways I would be dumping him and moving on to someone who isn't so bloody disrespectful. He can't and you shouldn't just excuse his behavior because he didn't know your definition of cheating that's bull****. At his age there is no excuse.

 

Stand up for yourself, you deserve better than this. He is still a player.. he's cheating on you! Simple rule accept a person for who they are. If you can't leave, don't try to change them.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Carenth

[emva07]

Silly_Girl hit it right out the park....everything she says is soooo true.

 

In order for him to maybe see your point of view means you showing him from scratch how to be that way. Lots of trial and error, he won't change over night. You have to deal with a lot of him messing up, and even then, at the end of the day he may not even change. At his age, he already has his values set in stone. Sure he may love you, but that doesn't change his definition of cheating, because in his definition of cheating, doing what he does DOES NOT MEAN HE DOESN'T LOVE YOU. To YOU loving someone means not cheating, to him it doesn't.

 

And yes, playing on the childhood trauma is classic to get you to feel sorry and want to stick around, men love to play on the nurturer side of us. Aww poor baby, he suffered as a child so I must be understanding. That's BS, who is going to help YOU deal with YOUR pain?

 

I've been through all of this too....sticking around thinking I could change a man who thought cheating wasn't a big deal because he loved me. OH he got really good at hiding stuff, putting password on things so I would think he had changed. I think it was like over 5 times that we had that "lets talk to restablish boundaries" talk, he would even cry, beg, and plead that I forgive him because his love for me was strong enough to change. Yeah....3 years later and I was still finding flirty texts. It got to the point where he'd get mad that it hurt me, "why don't you understand that all that matters is that I love YOU?, this isn't cheating!?" I"m sorry, but that is not my definition of love.

 

These things don't change. You let this one go....oh it's on, he will do it over and over and over again.

 

It's something very painful to go through. You being paranoid about this bachelor party is proof that you have already succumbed to the pressures of knowing what kind of man you're with. Is that a feeling you want to deal with for the rest of your life ? I know it's nice to have someone, but in the long run it's not worth wasting your years knowing it will all end in a train wreck anyways.

Edited October 3, 2013 by emva07

[2sunny]

If you are expected to lower your standards and move your healthy boundary to suit his needs - you may have your clue that this isn't a good match.

[Mascara]

If he's having trouble defining the boundaries, it's quite simple - cheating is doing something with another person that you wouldn't want your partner to know about. If he wouldn't do it with you standing right next to him and seeing/reading everything... that's the boundary.

[veggirl]

Of course he will say thats not cheating. Then he would have to admit hes a cheater. Alot of people today are too afraid of personal accountability or looking in the mirror and rather live in LaLa Land.

 

So he would think making out isnt cheating? (no penetration). Yeah he sounds like a manipulative tool.

 

Even if he didnt get physical with those girls, he would in a heartbeat if he ran into them. Looking to cheat is the same as cheating to me.

 

I agree. Dump this loser who is trying to manipulate you OP. Or tell him you are off to give a handjob to some guy, after all that isn't penetration either! And yep he would absolutely bang these girls if given the opportunity.

[Quiet Storm]

But what if he is willing to change his view and accept that he cheated. He is a stubborn guy but for me he would go tot he ends of the earth. And prior to me he was a player, he had several one night stands like a lot of men and women do these days. You get what you want and move on ... I am seriously his first relationship at the age of 25. He has not yet matured or found his footing, he is immature in a lot of ways.

But if he is willing to change and adapt to my ways, shoukd I not try and see if that can happen? I mean how do others recover from full blown cheating and long term affairs? It takes years but in the end it may be worth it. I don't want to have any regrets. At the same time I need to safe guard my heart. Because yea, I realize it can happen again, but I won't be putting my all into this relationship anymore. I'm just going to let the pieces fall where they may. If he wants me, he will have to bridge the gap he has formed. I am no longer helping.

 

See, even if I break up I am in no hurry to find someone else. I am.young and in no rush to get married. So giving bim a second chance while putting the relationship on a probation almost is what I am considering ...

 

He is still a player. Sweet talking girls into sending dirty pics? 100% player. Telling his GF that it was no big deal? 100% player.

 

He knew it was disrespectful to you, but he didn't care.

 

Most guys like this won't change. Regular porn is already too boring for him. He needs interaction. He has already progressed to craigslist, and I would be reluctant to believe that he didn't meet up with any of these people.

 

 

He won't stop. He'll just learn to hide it better. In the meantime, you may be at risk for STDs. Think of this discovery as a warning bell. A red flag. Are you going to pay attention & protect yourself? Because he does not seem to have your best interests at heart.

 

Giving him another chance , even while complaining, crying & letting him know how much he hurt you, can be perceived by him as tolerance & acceptance. He can actually lose MORE respect for you, for tolerating this (and staying with him- not matter how much you b!tch at him about it- is tolerance). Most men don't change until they feel real consequences.

 

If you were married with kids I'd advise you to try to work it out. But you're not. There are plenty of guys out there that don't shop for hoes on craiglist. You deserve better.

 

Fast forward 10 years...you are married to him with little kids & catch him on craigslist again. You will be saying "Why didn't I get out when I had the chance? I was lucky enough to get a warning, but I chose to ignore it!"

 

We can love someone, and still decide that they would not be a good partner for us. In order for this man to be a good partner for you, he must evolve & change into a different person. Why take that risk when there are plenty of available men that don't do this? Most men watch porn. This guy is corresponding with these women, women that are advertising themselves on craigslist. He is trying to minimize his behavior, to soften the blow. Why do you love this guy? What is so awesome about him that makes him worthy of a second chance?