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Objectification? (Long!)


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Fullautoglock

I'm a 44 year old male who was married for 20 years to a woman who didn't have a problem with me respectfully checking out other women. A woman who would actually point out attractive women to me, who didn't have a problem with me going to a strip joint or looking at pornography. Because of other issues we were divorced 4 years ago (no kids, fairly mutual breakup).

 

Shortly after ending the marriage I became involved with a woman whose philosophical outlook on life appeared to mirror mine. We have had many problems and arguments in the last 3 1/2 years. In fact there have been more arguments and disagreements than I had in the 20 years of my marriage. I truly care for this person, she is VERY honest and trustworthy with her affections, has a great work ethic and seemed to be a very happy-go-lucky person when I first met her. The happy-go-lucky aspect she showed me has pretty much gone by the wayside and she behaves as though she has no trust in me.

 

After countless hours of discussing my feelings (something I really don't like to do, but can especially when it seemed as though I should in order to defend myself and my philosophy), with her generally sitting quietly or perhaps asking the occasional question, things don't seem to be any different now than they were within the first month of our relationship. In the first month, we had a long heated discussion about men admiring women, or even simply looking at women, being attracted to women or anything concerning this aspect of life. I have always held the belief that it really is an instinctual thing for me to find the sight of a woman to be a pleasant experience. To me that is all it is. The sight. I take no steps to advance it further than that. I never have. I got married when I was eighteen, had not had sex before being married, did not have sex or ANY intimacy with any woman besides my wife for 20 years, and have only had sex with one woman since my divorce (my current girlfriend who has a problem with men looking at women).

 

When I say respectfully checking out other women, I mean I look. I don't ogle. I don't make comments that the woman could hear. I don't follow them around. I read the news on Yahoo and look at the most popular section, if I see a picture of a provocatively dressed woman, I look. If I am with someone who I know is amenable to it, I will and have commented on how a woman looks and whether I think they are attractive. This has never affected how I treat someone. I will open a door for anyone, no matter what they look like. Internally, I do judge people by the way they look, I believe this to be a healthy aspect of discrimination, possibly related to a part of the basic survival instinct. I have enough respect for others to NOT treat them differently simply because of their looks, show me some ugly thoughts and I'll tend to ignore them though :) When I was younger I tended to befriend people who would not be considered to be one of the "beautiful people", often they would be the people being teased because of how they look or their weight or whatever. Which causes me to think of the immortal words of Frank Zappa "What's the ugliest part of your body? Some say your nose. Some say your toes. I think it's your mind!" The meaning in that quote removes the stigma from the people who don't fit societies model of "good looking" and places it where it really belongs, on the ugly minds of the sheep who play into what others tell them is correct.

 

Anyhow, we had the discussion again last night, and I got her to tell me things (finally) that she hadn't straight out said before this. Basically it is that in her philosophy for human existence, her partner should not look at another woman with any type of sexual thought. That type of thing should be saved completely for her, and to do otherwise is WRONG. When I heard her say it was WRONG, I saw the reasons for many of the arguments fall into place. How can one human being believe something is WRONG, and then observe their significant other behave in the manner which is WRONG, yet willingly attempt to dismiss it because of their feelings of love for that person? It seems to me that if you have a philosophy, and you live that philosophy and you believe it, that tends to remove some of the grayness that todays society seems to like to paint things with. My philosophy is VERY black and white, there is RIGHT and there is WRONG. I believe I have lived my life RIGHT. Now, even though our philosophies are very similar, she has told me that hers is a little grayer, that she believes she can allow me the right to find the female form to be 'attractive' and cause desire. I don't understand that. The philosophies we have seem not to allow much gray. Freud saw the difference between sexual desire and the object that caused it, I guess I do too. If I knew my girlfriend was at work, looking at a guy down the hall, finding him attractive, doesn't act on it in any manner other than to come to me and bless me with the fruits of her desire, then who does that hurt? In that scenario I would not want it to hurt her.

 

Further along into the discussion she said that she believed that her philosophy was 'flawed', and that she had been wrong. She believes that she can change this aspect of her philosophy, that she doesn't have to view this as WRONG. I believe that a person can change their philosophy. When your life experience begins to show you different things, when you observe different things, or observe things in a different way I think you either determine how those things fit with your philosophy, or you adjust your philosophy to allow those things to fit logically. Isn't that learning?

 

I sent her email last night stating :

 

"I think that as you think about what we talked about, particular care must be given to knowing yourself, understanding from where the source of the 'flaw' came, and truly understanding the issues surrounding what we called the 'flaw'.

 

I believe this to be a very dangerous undertaking for you. To examine such a long held and deeply felt belief of one's philosophy, and to consider changing it, or even just examining it, on account of someone else's idea, is a monumental task and can have undesirable consequences.

 

I don't want you to not KNOW and live your life in a way that cannot be COMPLETELY and WHOLE-HEARTILY believed and respected and allowed to influence everything that a NATURALLY occurring change would include, then to one day discover that you were truly not able to accept and live the change. If that were to happen I would think there would be much room for contempt and anger, not only for me, but more importantly for yourself. To one day realize that a change you invoked, or attempted to invoke is not what you truly CAN believe in would be a very bad thing."

 

 

 

I also wanted to add that there is no particular body-type associated with what I find attractive, but I do tend to find the typical societal objectified attributes to be attractive. That isn't to say that I don't find women whose attributes are outside those typical attributes attractive. It depends on many things, how I perceive them to be presenting themselves, dress, hair style and color, and actual body shape. In other words, they don't have to be skinny, they don't have to have big boobs, etc... My girlfriend is very intelligent, is on the insecure side and believes she is overweight, so I don't know if this plays into the situation or not.

 

So, the upshot? I don't know. Am I wrong? Am I hurting myself by looking at women other than the one I love? I guess I am attempting to get input from others, especially, but not limited to, women.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice, suggestions, thoughts or ideas!

 

Fullauto Glock

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You're nuts to think that most any woman won't be upset by your wandering eyes, especially if you make comments.

 

I don't know just how much your eyes wander but you sound like you have a pretty good visual appetite for the opposite sex.

 

If any woman, including your first wife, goes along with that stuff the acquiesence is called a "reaction formation." It's a subconscious defense mechanism taught in beginning psychology classes and you can put it in one of your search engines to get a good definition. For your convenience, I am giving you a definition as follows:

 

"Reaction Formation-

 

To ward off an anxiety-causing and unacceptable impulse, one may replace it with its over-emphasized diametrical opposite. For example, the young boy who hates his older brother for his accomplishments and the rewards and praise which he receives may transform this hatred into aggressive love and praise. This replacement of his hatred with its opposite, love, represses the hatred, and satisfies his superego's guide for what is acceptable, but does not eliminate the original impulse.

 

"The best indication that an emotion or act is a formed reaction is any noticeable persistence or excess in the behavior. Indeed, an motivated by reaction formation may be stifling or absurdly, unnecessarily overzealous, evidence of the repressed impulse at its root."

 

Basically, a reaction formation manifests itself in the complete opposite of what the person really feels. any woman who points out attractive women for you to look at has got a serious problem as described above. That is what happens when these women pretend to go along with your tomfoolery.

 

But suffice it to say that you should look at your other ladies discretely and cautiously and not let your wives or girlfriends know that is your favorite past time or that you enjoy it to such a great extent.

 

I am telling you firmly and clearly as I possibly can, no matter what ANY woman who really loves you and cares about you says...NO MATTER WHAT...they are not going to be happy with this habit you have.

 

So practice doing it carefully, discretely and without being noticed. And keep your mouth shut about doing it.

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I enjoy and appreciate looking at people and things I find beautiful and/or attractive, no matter what form it takes. The day I stop noticing what I consider to be a beautiful or attractive woman is the day I stop noticing that same beauty in my girlfriend or wife.

 

I try not to pay too much attention to another woman or make it obvious that I am taken by someone else's looks when I am in the presence of my mate. Some people may think that is hypocritical of me, but it's not a matter of me trying to "hide it". It's a matter of being respectful and courteous. That I can recall, this subject has never come up between myself and a mate. I'm sure it's sometimes obvious that I am "looking". I guess I have either not "looked" to the extent of causing a problem or I have not been with a mate that thought my "looking" was a problem.

 

I, too, have the tendency to see things as black or white, right or wrong, etc. However, in reality, I know there are as many different ways of living and carrying on as there are people in the World. My definition of black/white, right /wrong are mine and no one else's. Because I see something as right or wrong for me does not mean it is right or wrong, respectively, for someone else.

 

To me, being or doing "RIGHT" is really being or doing what "I PREFER". Being or doing "WRONG" is being or doing what "I DO NOT PREFER". I have done both and I will likely discover other unrighteousness in the future. I am not afraid, threatened or diminished by it but, hopefully, in my mind a better person in spite of it.

 

I don't have a problem stating my opinion or letting someone know where I stand when I think it's appropriate but, most of the time I have no intention or ambition to convert people or win anyone over to my way of thinking. In most cases, I don't have a problem associating with people that don't see things the way I do...as long as they are willing to give me the same latitude I give them. In other words, just because I disagree with someone on an issue, doesn't mean we can't associate with each other...as long as we are both flexible enough to allow the difference to exist and not get in the way of an ongoing relationship.

 

In our journey of life most of us do learn and change our outlook and philosophy about what is right and what is wrong, what rules apply and when. This learning and changing will only take place if one is open to differing ideas or new ways of thinking and reasoning. Otherwise, the differing idea or philosophy is discounted or disregarded as irrelevant. There are a number of issues in which two people will never fully agree, no matter how much or what kind of logic is applied. That doesn't mean anyone is or was RIGHT or WRONG, that nothing was learned, or that no one has changed. It just means there is a difference.

 

I don't really understand what you are trying to accomplish here or what kind of advice you are looking for. You said you have always lived you life "RIGHT". I don't think it really matters what anybody else thinks about your behavior. If you decide it's "RIGHT", it's right. If you decide to change, then that's right too. In that vein, I think you will continue to be "RIGHT" for the rest of your life, no matter what you do!

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All I know is that it hurts when your man looks at other women. Just like it's natural for you to want to look, it's natural for some of us to be extremely hurt by it. It is like we are not enough for you. It is that simple--it hurts. I wouldn't be with a man that did that no way, no how. I would respectfully get out of the relationship, because it would never work. I was married to a man for many years---he never did that (not in front of me) and I respect him for that (our problems were not of this nature), but if they were, it would have ended instantaneously. There are women who don't mind---find one like that or you'll have big problems in the future. Good luck. Just one woman's opinion.

I enjoy and appreciate looking at people and things I find beautiful and/or attractive, no matter what form it takes. The day I stop noticing what I consider to be a beautiful or attractive woman is the day I stop noticing that same beauty in my girlfriend or wife. I try not to pay too much attention to another woman or make it obvious that I am taken by someone else's looks when I am in the presence of my mate. Some people may think that is hypocritical of me, but it's not a matter of me trying to "hide it". It's a matter of being respectful and courteous. That I can recall, this subject has never come up between myself and a mate. I'm sure it's sometimes obvious that I am "looking". I guess I have either not "looked" to the extent of causing a problem or I have not been with a mate that thought my "looking" was a problem. I, too, have the tendency to see things as black or white, right or wrong, etc. However, in reality, I know there are as many different ways of living and carrying on as there are people in the World. My definition of black/white, right /wrong are mine and no one else's. Because I see something as right or wrong for me does not mean it is right or wrong, respectively, for someone else. To me, being or doing "RIGHT" is really being or doing what "I PREFER". Being or doing "WRONG" is being or doing what "I DO NOT PREFER". I have done both and I will likely discover other unrighteousness in the future. I am not afraid, threatened or diminished by it but, hopefully, in my mind a better person in spite of it. I don't have a problem stating my opinion or letting someone know where I stand when I think it's appropriate but, most of the time I have no intention or ambition to convert people or win anyone over to my way of thinking. In most cases, I don't have a problem associating with people that don't see things the way I do...as long as they are willing to give me the same latitude I give them. In other words, just because I disagree with someone on an issue, doesn't mean we can't associate with each other...as long as we are both flexible enough to allow the difference to exist and not get in the way of an ongoing relationship.

 

In our journey of life most of us do learn and change our outlook and philosophy about what is right and what is wrong, what rules apply and when. This learning and changing will only take place if one is open to differing ideas or new ways of thinking and reasoning. Otherwise, the differing idea or philosophy is discounted or disregarded as irrelevant. There are a number of issues in which two people will never fully agree, no matter how much or what kind of logic is applied. That doesn't mean anyone is or was RIGHT or WRONG, that nothing was learned, or that no one has changed. It just means there is a difference.

 

I don't really understand what you are trying to accomplish here or what kind of advice you are looking for. You said you have always lived you life "RIGHT". I don't think it really matters what anybody else thinks about your behavior. If you decide it's "RIGHT", it's right. If you decide to change, then that's right too. In that vein, I think you will continue to be "RIGHT" for the rest of your life, no matter what you do!

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Fullauto Glock
You're nuts to think that most any woman won't be upset by your wandering eyes, especially if you make comments.

 

 

 

I guess that is why I posted here, to get other thoughts and opinions. Although I am 44 I have had very little actual experience with the details of something like this, or at least limited experience (only two women.) I have based my thoughts on the reactions that I have seen in those around me. Of course I have been around other women, but not in an intimate way where they would discuss their thoughts about a man's wandering eyes.

 

I don't know just how much your eyes wander but you sound like you have a pretty good visual appetite for the opposite sex.

 

 

 

I would agree with that, but I would also add that it isn't necessarily all in a sexual manner. I watch people, true if I could watch only one gender it would be female, but I look at everyone. I generally don't comment to my girlfriend, which naturally I wouldn't since this is something that has been a problem. Up until our discussion last night, I don't know that I have understood exactly what the problem with it is. I asked her to explain to me who it hurts. Obviously I don't want it to hurt her, that isn't my goal, with her or anyone around me. I know now that it does hurt her and her explanation that she thinks it is wrong. Is that enough of a reason for me to change my behavior? I think I should use something besides just the fact that it hurts, I think I should know why it hurts, and it has to seem to be logical and valid in my reality, doesn't it? Otherwise I would be changing myself, my being, my philosophy based on other's feelings, rather than my own logical thought, something that goes against my objectivist-like philosophy.

 

I know that I may not have come to a real, all-encompassing question in my original post, and I assumed that any responses would get me closer to the real questions I am asking myself. Okay, if it has been determined that it does hurt a woman, I ask why. Is it okay for me to want to know why if I don't understand it. I praise the way she looks, although she tells me she is overweight. It doesn't really matter to me what she looks like, I guess that is another difference. I am in love with her. To me, logically, that makes it completely different. I don't love Julia Ormond, or any one else that I look at. I don't fantasize about women that I look at, I don't imagine having relations with them. My black and white thinking tells me there is value in having the fewest number of sexual partners in your life. That is one factor that I personally, for myself, use to determine the value of existence. My girlfriend knows this, understands it and believes me when I tell her that, as she should because it is true. I guess I would hope that having thoughts such as those so close to my being and her knowing it, would bring her to a better understanding of the insignificance of my looking at another woman, at least from my point of view, and that's the key... my point of view. It is difficult to watch a movie, or television, or even go to the grocery store with it's racks of fashion magazines picturing half-naked pointy women, and then listen to the vitriol from her because they are there and she knows that I find the human female form attractive. I take it very personally, even though many times she aims the dislike at society in general, it is hard for me to remove myself from the comments because she knows what I believe. If I think she is viewing me as nothing more than an animal, not being able to control my behavior, being sheep-like by admiring something that society in general extols as valuable (tall, pointy, skinny, women with above average breasts), then that hurts me. I don't believe I deserve to be thought of in that way, I believe I am better than that, even though, again, I do enjoy the human female form. I can explain the hurt that I feel, I don't think it unreasonable to ask for the same from her. I was hoping to hear from others as to WHY it hurts, maybe if I see a variety of reasons something will click with me allowing me to actually understand it in my reality.

 

If any woman, including your first wife, goes along with that stuff the acquiesence is called a "reaction formation." It's a subconscious defense mechanism taught in beginning psychology classes and you can put it in one of your search engines to get a good definition. For your convenience, I am giving you a definition as follows: "Reaction Formation- To ward off an anxiety-causing and unacceptable impulse, one may replace it with its over-emphasized diametrical opposite. For example, the young boy who hates his older brother for his accomplishments and the rewards and praise which he receives may transform this hatred into aggressive love and praise. This replacement of his hatred with its opposite, love, represses the hatred, and satisfies his superego's guide for what is acceptable, but does not eliminate the original impulse. "The best indication that an emotion or act is a formed reaction is any noticeable persistence or excess in the behavior. Indeed, an motivated by reaction formation may be stifling or absurdly, unnecessarily overzealous, evidence of the repressed impulse at its root." Basically, a reaction formation manifests itself in the complete opposite of what the person really feels. any woman who points out attractive women for you to look at has got a serious problem as described above. That is what happens when these women pretend to go along with your tomfoolery.

 

 

 

So you don't believe that it is possible for a woman to truly be accepting of such behavior? I assume there are a lot of men who would react the same way that my girlfriend has reacted if they observed their girlfriend eyeing up males. They would be what, jealous? Feel inadequate? And I could understand it if their actions went beyond merely looking, but honestly if I saw my girlfriend checking out another man it would not bother me. She tells me often that she finds me attractive, and I know her well enough that I have complete and utmost trust in her to be true to me.

 

But suffice it to say that you should look at your other ladies discretely and cautiously and not let your wives or girlfriends know that is your favorite past time or that you enjoy it to such a great extent. I am telling you firmly and clearly as I possibly can, no matter what ANY woman who really loves you and cares about you says...NO MATTER WHAT...they are not going to be happy with this habit you have. So practice doing it carefully, discretely and without being noticed. And keep your mouth shut about doing it.

 

 

 

Then that causes me to feel guilty, as though I am hiding some nefarious activity from her.

 

I appreciate the time you took to respond in such a thoughtful manner. I am definately not afraid to look at myself in this matter, to examine what I do, and the consequences of my actions. I just need to understand her reaction to something that I (perhaps naively) see as simply natural, and I think you have given me some good information. Thanks!

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Fullauto Glock
I enjoy and appreciate looking at people and things I find beautiful and/or attractive, no matter what form it takes. The day I stop noticing what I consider to be a beautiful or attractive woman is the day I stop noticing that same beauty in my girlfriend or wife. I try not to pay too much attention to another woman or make it obvious that I am taken by someone else's looks when I am in the presence of my mate. Some people may think that is hypocritical of me, but it's not a matter of me trying to "hide it". It's a matter of being respectful and courteous. That I can recall, this subject has never come up between myself and a mate. I'm sure it's sometimes obvious that I am "looking". I guess I have either not "looked" to the extent of causing a problem or I have not been with a mate that thought my "looking" was a problem.

 

 

 

I try to be respectful also. I don't run into columns at the mall because I was looking at a woman.

 

I, too, have the tendency to see things as black or white, right or wrong, etc. However, in reality, I know there are as many different ways of living and carrying on as there are people in the World. My definition of black/white, right /wrong are mine and no one else's. Because I see something as right or wrong for me does not mean it is right or wrong, respectively, for someone else. To me, being or doing "RIGHT" is really being or doing what "I PREFER". Being or doing "WRONG" is being or doing what "I DO NOT PREFER". I have done both and I will likely discover other unrighteousness in the future. I am not afraid, threatened or diminished by it but, hopefully, in my mind a better person in spite of it.

 

 

 

I agree with you there. I would add that there should be a whole lot of sanity present in order for RIGHT to be stated as similar to "I PREFER", otherwise we wouldn't be able to enforce any of our laws, but I understand what you are saying.

 

I don't have a problem stating my opinion or letting someone know where I stand when I think it's appropriate but, most of the time I have no intention or ambition to convert people or win anyone over to my way of thinking. In most cases, I don't have a problem associating with people that don't see things the way I do...as long as they are willing to give me the same latitude I give them. In other words, just because I disagree with someone on an issue, doesn't mean we can't associate with each other...as long as we are both flexible enough to allow the difference to exist and not get in the way of an ongoing relationship.

 

 

 

And I would hope that my girlfriend and I could come to the a point where that can be true. We have had many different problems, but the good qualities far outweigh the problems as far as my respect and admiration for her as a human being are concerned. That is part of my problem. I don't want to live with the sometimes seemingly constant problems, yet I don't want to live without the person that I admire most, other than myself of course :)

 

In our journey of life most of us do learn and change our outlook and philosophy about what is right and what is wrong, what rules apply and when. This learning and changing will only take place if one is open to differing ideas or new ways of thinking and reasoning. Otherwise, the differing idea or philosophy is discounted or disregarded as irrelevant. There are a number of issues in which two people will never fully agree, no matter how much or what kind of logic is applied. That doesn't mean anyone is or was RIGHT or WRONG, that nothing was learned, or that no one has changed. It just means there is a difference. I don't really understand what you are trying to accomplish here or what kind of advice you are looking for. You said you have always lived you life "RIGHT". I don't think it really matters what anybody else thinks about your behavior. If you decide it's "RIGHT", it's right. If you decide to change, then that's right too. In that vein, I think you will continue to be "RIGHT" for the rest of your life, no matter what you do!

 

 

 

I understand your not understanding, since I know that I didn't put forward a really specific question. I was hoping that just sketching the situation would bring me different opinions and thoughts in general and from there I could attempt to get it narrowed down to some specific questions that I can think about myself, or perhaps post here again.

 

This is specific as I can get :

 

I know I would like to understand why the act of looking at an attractive member of the opposite sex should hurt. To be honest I have believed that the hurt was simply a feeling of inadequacy on the part of the person who is hurt. I have believed that if you are well-centered, in love with yourself (as I believe you should be), hold the utmost regard for your own life, and have self esteem that you wouldn't be hurt by this. I have had a tendency to indicate to my girlfriend that my looking at a woman, and her being hurt by it, says more about her than me, since I believe that is one thing that a male human being's brain is supposed to do. The object, the womans body, is supposed to cause sexual desire. What you do with that desire, how you treat women (and people in general) is infinately more important than the fact that the desire occurs. I have come to believe that it is simply part of survival of the species. I want to understand if I am wrong.

 

I can and am willing to bring change to my life if I believe it is right, if I can see a logical reason for it.

 

Thanks for your thoughts and insight!

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Fullauto Glock

> All I know is that it hurts when your man

looks at other women. Just like it's natural for you to want to look, it's natural for some of us to be extremely hurt by it. It is like we are not enough for you. It is that simple--it hurts.

I understand the natural part of wanting to look. I don't understand it when it comes to being hurt. Why does that hurt? Why is it natural to be hurt by that? If you know that your partner is virtuous and true to you, respects you, admires you and tells you that, then why does the simple act of looking hurt?

 

The logical part of me just says "Of course you are enough for me. I come home to you everyday. I share my life with you." and it seems like that is SO much more meaningful and important than who or what I happen to lQQk at.

 

It isn't only men who do this. Women look too. The basic instinctual attraction is generally a strong muscular body, thereby assuring that the chances of their own survival be furthered. I do not have a strong muscular body, why don't I feel hurt if my girlfriend looks at a man who does? If she walks up to them, talks to them, behaves in a provocative manner, then that is something different. I don't do that, I have never done that. Why should it hurt me if she looks?

 

> I wouldn't be with a man that did that no way,

no how.

and I appreciate that, I respect that, completely. Do I have the right to ask why? I guess part of my problem here is that I am four years into the relationship and I am only just now being told that she believes it is WRONG. I think I should have known this a lot earlier. Like I had said, we talked about this very thing during the first month of our relationship, she did not tell me then that she thought it was WRONG. I knew she didn't like it, I thought it was something that had to do with jealously, or not knowing that she could trust me at the time. Now that I believe she realizes that I am worthy of her trust (or perhaps not, since she believes this behavior to be wrong), I would think it would be easier to understand. That's almost oxymoronic (or perhaps just moronic) in that, she probably can't really trust me because she believes I am doing something wrong every day of my life. I believe that her trust has come from other factors, such as the fact that I have led a life that is the exact opposite of promiscuous. That is where the trust comes from, but has to be lessened if she believes I behave in a manner that is wrong.

 

> I would respectfully get out of the relationship,

because it would never work. I was married to a man for many years---he never did that (not in front of me) and I respect him for that (our problems were not of this nature), but if they were, it would have ended instantaneously. There are women who don't mind---find one like that or you'll have big problems in the future. Good luck. Just one woman's opinion.

 

 

 

That may be what has to happen. But of course that introduces so many other issues that deal with my own emotions and desires and being hurt and not being with someone I love, and finding someone I can be in awe of, etc... poor poor pitiful me :)

 

Life, is dangerous!

 

Thank you for your input.

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Let me try to explain it further:

 

This conduct is rude and unchivalrous. If you are looking at another woman when you're with me, why are you with me? Look at her and be with her. I want to be the focus of attention---not her.

 

She should have told you that it bothered her to this extent immediately, but she didn't. Unless you two give in a little (for me this would be a deal-breaker), this will drive both of you nuts.

 

I don't know how else I can explain it. Maybe you think it is okay and you don't want to stop it. That is okay, it is a free country and you should do what you like, but I think maybe you should reconsider this gal--find one that doesn't mind it. Good luck.

> All I know is that it hurts when your man I understand the natural part of wanting to look. I don't understand it when it comes to being hurt. Why does that hurt? Why is it natural to be hurt by that? If you know that your partner is virtuous and true to you, respects you, admires you and tells you that, then why does the simple act of looking hurt? The logical part of me just says "Of course you are enough for me. I come home to you everyday. I share my life with you. " and it seems like that is SO much more meaningful and important than who or what I happen to lQQk at. It isn't only men who do this. Women look too. The basic instinctual attraction is generally a strong muscular body, thereby assuring that the chances of their own survival be furthered. I do not have a strong muscular body, why don't I feel hurt if my girlfriend looks at a man who does? If she walks up to them, talks to them, behaves in a provocative manner, then that is something different. I don't do that, I have never done that. Why should it hurt me if she looks?

 

> I wouldn't be with a man that did that no way, and I appreciate that, I respect that, completely. Do I have the right to ask why? I guess part of my problem here is that I am four years into the relationship and I am only just now being told that she believes it is WRONG . I think I should have known this a lot earlier. Like I had said, we talked about this very thing during the first month of our relationship, she did not tell me then that she thought it was WRONG . I knew she didn't like it, I thought it was something that had to do with jealously, or not knowing that she could trust me at the time. Now that I believe she realizes that I am worthy of her trust (or perhaps not, since she believes this behavior to be wrong), I would think it would be easier to understand. That's almost oxymoronic (or perhaps just moronic) in that, she probably can't really trust me because she believes I am doing something wrong every day of my life. I believe that her trust has come from other factors, such as the fact that I have led a life that is the exact opposite of promiscuous. That is where the trust comes from, but has to be lessened if she believes I behave in a manner that is wrong. > I would respectfully get out of the relationship,

 

That may be what has to happen. But of course that introduces so many other issues that deal with my own emotions and desires and being hurt and not being with someone I love, and finding someone I can be in awe of, etc... poor poor pitiful me :) Life, is dangerous! Thank you for your input.

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the Key to love

Your girlfriend is the most beautiful woman in the world because of her jealous.Also, if you think you like beautiful things and your chioce must be "beautiful" too.You do not need to look at other woman at all. Believe yourself.

 

In someway, I find you are not a "mature" person.Keep in mind that "Love is Selfish".You should learn to "love" and then you will get deeper in love with your girlfriend.

 

If you can find the "love" in your girlfriend's jealous and enjoy her company then you will become a more complete person. Many man feel happy when their wife or girlfriend get jealous because of this.

 

Sometimes, life is "giving", not always "asking". Giving more love to your girlfriend and treat her as a queen and learning to enjoy this is very important.

I try to be respectful also. I don't run into columns at the mall because I was looking at a woman.

 

I agree with you there. I would add that there should be a whole lot of sanity present in order for RIGHT to be stated as similar to "I PREFER", otherwise we wouldn't be able to enforce any of our laws, but I understand what you are saying.

 

And I would hope that my girlfriend and I could come to the a point where that can be true. We have had many different problems, but the good qualities far outweigh the problems as far as my respect and admiration for her as a human being are concerned. That is part of my problem. I don't want to live with the sometimes seemingly constant problems, yet I don't want to live without the person that I admire most, other than myself of course :)

 

I understand your not understanding, since I know that I didn't put forward a really specific question. I was hoping that just sketching the situation would bring me different opinions and thoughts in general and from there I could attempt to get it narrowed down to some specific questions that I can think about myself, or perhaps post here again. This is specific as I can get : I know I would like to understand why the act of looking at an attractive member of the opposite sex should hurt. To be honest I have believed that the hurt was simply a feeling of inadequacy on the part of the person who is hurt. I have believed that if you are well-centered, in love with yourself (as I believe you should be), hold the utmost regard for your own life, and have self esteem that you wouldn't be hurt by this. I have had a tendency to indicate to my girlfriend that my looking at a woman, and her being hurt by it, says more about her than me, since I believe that is one thing that a male human being's brain is supposed to do. The object, the womans body, is supposed to cause sexual desire. What you do with that desire, how you treat women (and people in general) is infinately more important than the fact that the desire occurs. I have come to believe that it is simply part of survival of the species. I want to understand if I am wrong.

 

I can and am willing to bring change to my life if I believe it is right, if I can see a logical reason for it. Thanks for your thoughts and insight!

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