Separate, divorce, or not? (long....)

[CompliKated]

Whew - where to begin?

 

My first time to this site or any site like this.... but I've been reading threads and feel safe here to put it out there for "third parties" to dissect, and perhaps offer some perspective.

 

I'm 36, female. I've been with my husband for 19 years (yep since I was 17), married for almost 15. We have 2 children, 9 and 11.

 

For more years than not, the marriage has been stale. Lots of reasons, his and mine, we tried counselling in the mid 90-s, where the counsellor dissected my life, found no fault with his, and all the while he was having an online liason with a young woman (for 2 1/2 years, during and post-counselling). After 18 months of counselling, the counsellor cut us loose - she could do nothing more for us. About a year later, we "got it" and started applying what we'd learned, but by then the truth about the online thing came out, and I worked hard to get past that, including confronting the other girl (not woman...). I forgave that. Never forgot. I think at that point when it all hit the fan, he realized he was that close to losing it all, and he put an end to many destructive behaviors. In return, I chose to stay and work things out, but before long, we were back in the same rut.

 

To add to all of this, in early 1998, he moved to another city to take a job (long story, I agreed to this, it was a good move for all of us) but it ended up taking us 2 years to sell our family home and move, so for 2 years he lived elsewhere and commuted home once a month, for a weekend. Longest two years of our lives, and it was shortly after he moved, that I discovered the online honey.... wow, how did we get through that?

 

Anyway, 5 1/2 years later, here we are. There is almost no sex, mainly my choice, he's always "ready" but to me it has become more of a chore than anything - that has been my problem for a long time. Financially we are making ends meet, but only just. Emotionally, we're on different planets.

 

18 months ago, I started my own business, with his help and support, and the help of his cousin. The business is doing well, but not to the point yet where I can draw an income. My husband works his 'real' job, and helps after hours in the business.

 

Here's my dilemma...

 

From a friendship/business partner standpoint - we are great together. We work well together and always have - we met at work and have worked together most of our lives together. We often finish each others' sentences.

 

We have a modest home (which is always a mess - and that drives me NUTS!), close to the business, and we have great kids.

 

Outwardly, it looks perfect.

 

However-- emotionally, he has always been very distant. I think that's part of the reason why the sexual interest has died in me, because he's a body without a soul. The only emotion I ever see from him is anger, he's a horribly moody person. Look at him the wrong way and he's ugly. Being a passenger in a car with him is hellish. He's been known to fly off the handle for reasons he doesn't know. Usually takes him a while to realize and get over it and apologize, but one can only handle being crapped on unexpectedly, so many times. He is not violent, just snarly.

 

He's a great father and good provider. Over the years I have sacrificed a lot of myself for the betterment of our family, including giving up my career to stay at home with the kids (a choice I will never regret!), and uprooting my life so he could follow his dream by taking the job where we are now. That choice afforded me the chance now to have my own business, my kids come "home" from school to my shop - it's all good. Sacrifices have paid off, but I'm getting tired of making sacrifices.

 

Neither of us is truly happy. Every few months or so, one of us (usually me) blows a gasket and we have a big knock-down-drag-out about how miserable we are in the marriage department. Neither of us is having their needs met. There is tremendous frustration on both our parts, but until now we've just stuck our heads in the sand, and carried on.

 

There are many things that would make a clean break impossible:

 

The children - I was raised by a single mom after my father walked out on us - I wouldn't do that to my kids (neither would he...). Even if we split, we'd both be there, but I'd still like the best possible scenario for them, but not sure if what's best for them, is best for me, or vice-versa... this is a huge struggle for me.

 

The finances: I don't derive an income from my business yet. I cannot afford to move away, he cannot afford to move away, there isn't enough money to run two households in the modest standard of living that we are both accustomed to.

 

The business: I need him in my business. He enjoys the business too - we wouldn't have done this if we didn't both feel passionately about what we do. I also have a debt to repay to his cousin - so there is another financial tie.

 

The bottom line is, I love him - as a friend and a father to our kids - almost in a "brotherly" way, but I don't feel that there is a future for us as husband and wife. If we did split, I'd like it to be on friendly terms, no ill will, no hard feelings, it just didn't work out the way we'd hoped. He's a good man and I want him to be happy, and I want to be happy too, and I just don't see us fulfilling each other in "that way" for the rest of our lives. At this point I'd rather see him find a woman that can make him happy, because I can't.

 

In the past, I felt needy, insecure, dependent, selfish. I suppose those feelings are there still but I've learned and grown within myself to know that I can move forward. I also know that I want more out of life than a peck on the cheek in the morning from the man who sleeps on the couch most nights. When we do share a bed, it's amazing how much space two people can put between each other on a small surface.

 

Over the years I feel that I've given all that I'm able to, and despite my protests to the contrary, I do believe that he's given all that he can - it's just that we cannot meet each others' needs, and after all these years, it's not likely that this is going to change. I think I'm finally at peace with that. I don't know if he is, I'm afraid to broach the subject again, but if it does erupt again, I'm going to try that approach and see what happens. There is no such thing as a "talk" between us - the minute I ask to talk, he gets all defensive and it's never constructive, so I've learned to let these life conversations just "happen". I can't pick my time, but I can be ready when he does.

 

I gave all this a lot of thought since the Summer, when my husband's brother, and his wife of over 20 years, have decided to live "as friends and business partners" because of problems they are having. I don't know their details (it's their business not mine) but my SIL was tired of the boredom and the routine, and they have agreed to live as friends and business partners, and have their own lives. They do not have children. I don't know just what that entails (again, their business not mine) but it gave me pause for thought, because whether spoken or not, that's the way we've been living for a while. When my husband told me of their arrangement, I acknowledged that that is essentially what we are doing, and he promptly changed the subject (uh-huh!). Denial? Perhaps - or perhaps he's sensitive. Either way I didn't feel like a fight, so I didn't push the buttons. We haven't spoken of it since, or really of anything else except kids and business.

 

We've both got plenty of shortcomings, and really he deserves a medal for putting up with me and my crap for all these years - but at the same time his seemingly hereditary lack of ambition, motivation and emotional detachment have become almost more than I can tolerate. Yes we both work long hours, but I feel that I am the only one who cares about the cleanliness/appearance of our home (it's a mess, inside and out!), and I get up early or stay up late to work on these, often while he's plopped in front of TV, or sleeping in. I've learned to live with that frustration, as I'm sure he's learned to live with all the annoyances I cause. At this point though, the laying of blame is redundant. We're both to blame. I can own mine now, where perhaps I couldn't before.

 

I want more. I want to feel those intense feelings of infatuation/love. Try as I might, they just aren't there anymore. They still were when we went through our marriage crisis in 1998, but they just aren't there now. Too many changes, especially in me I think. I can go through the motions of the marriage, but I don't want to grow old knowing what I'm missing.

 

To add a wrinkle (you knew this was coming... why else would she be bringing it all up NOW?), there is a man whom I've known for about 2 1/2 years now, who recently confessed his feelings to me. Apparently he's had feelings for me since we first met, but because he knew I was married, he kept them to himself. I've always liked him in a friendly way, (no other way would have been permissable) but now I'd really like to explore my own feelings about him. He is a gentleman, and would in no way jeopardize my home and family life, in fact it was a fluke that he opened up - we were at a trade show, and after a few drinks, he let it slip. He lives far away, but we see each other every week, on business - in my shop - in public (no impropriety). We've talked a lot since then, and again, he does not want to be a "cause" of any problems - he's not a cause, and he's been honourable. In fact he offered to back off completely - but I am rather enjoying our conversations, just being able to talk small talk. However now I find myself struggling with my own feelings (got the warmies for him!) and I can't quite figure out what I should or shouldn't do. No I'm not about to abandon home and family for a crush, or have an affair - but at the same time, life at home has been empty for a long time - and the urge to feel again is stirring in me.

 

I feel in my heart that the marriage is over, just neither of us has had the courage to admit it yet, and the seeming inconvenience of a breakup is what's keeping us here. We are all creatures of habit, and change is always difficult to make .... There's also the pressure of perceived failure - his parents have been married 50 years. I'm sure they won't understand. They are still in love - and God bless them for that, I know they've had their hard times too, but they still have that spark.

 

I'm afraid to broach the subject right now with my husband - given the feelings for the other man, I'm trying to give myself time to let those feelings find their place, before I speak and potentially screw things up worse than they already are. However 6 months ago when we had our last "blowout" (I took off Easter weekend and stayed at a friend's out of sheer frustration), nothing has changed since then... how long am I supposed to just wait?

 

I would probably stick it out til the kids are older, at this point I'm thinking it is a choice between "now" and "later", but I really can't think of much that would cause my feelings to change, and me to be madly in love with my husband again, to the point where I wanted to stay with him for the rest of my life.

 

I'm grappling with how selfish that sounds. At the same time, I *assume* (assume by his actions...) that he feels the same way. It would be so much easier if there weren't kids - I love my kids, have no regrets about anything, but I'm at a crossroads in my life and need some guidance. They are my first concern. Since home life is generally peaceful, I don't see the status quo as necessarily destructive. My son still has insecurity about his father, after the long separation during the job transition (he was 4-6 during that time) and he still asks "where's daddy?" if he's late or goes out to run an errand. I don't want to harm my children with this - but where's the line between harming myself in an unhealthy situation, and preserving their illusion?

 

I'd almost like to have an arrangement where we are both free to pursue other emotional/sexual relationships, as long as we don't "bring it home", until the children are of age - but is that a cop-out? I don't even know how he'd react to such a suggestion - but then he did it before, behind my back - so perhaps if it were "ok" he could live with that? I don't know. Am afraid to ask.

 

Something has to give - I can't see myself spending the rest of my life struggling with this.

 

Can anybody give some gems of wisdom?

 

CompliKated

[2SidestoStories]

I feel inclined to mention a certain website that goes through a number of points that you have brought up.

 

http://www.divorceasfriends.com

 

I wish there was an easy answer to give in terms of marriages gone wrong, stale, bad, foul, etc. That's never the way of it, however. You said you tried the counseling route, but that was a few years back now, and from what you describe, you at least have made some changes in your own life. It could be that due to resentment that has built up, both you and your husband have decided that there is just no reason to do anything but maintain status quo.

 

The exact challenge you face with your husband is the apparent lack of cooperation. Marriage is also a partnership that requires work and dedication. I find it very strange that although you can work together as business partners and presumably parenting partners, that is the end of it. You mentioned wanting to find that spark with your husband again, but I would suggest that if this is really true, you will have to start pulling back from your male friend for whom you have "warmies" (nice way of phrasing that, btw!) Express to him that you would like to retain the friendship, but keep it at that, and give your marriage another shot. Just because your SIL and BIL have an apparently functional cooperation going does not mean that it is good. The thing about a competent counselor is that he or she will be able to tell you for certain whether you have anything to save or not.

 

Best of luck to you in your decision, whatever it may come to be. You sound like an intelligent lady, so I trust that you'll come to your answer appropriately.

[moimeme]

I would probably stick it out til the kids are older, at this point I'm thinking it is a choice between "now" and "later", but I really can't think of much that would cause my feelings to change, and me to be madly in love with my husband again, to the point where I wanted to stay with him for the rest of my life.

 

If you mourn what you've lost and would like to try one last time to recapture it, and if your husband agrees to give it another try, you could give Marriage Builders a shot.

 

<URL removed>

[EnigmaXOXO]

Do you think there is any chance that the two of you could come to a mutual agreement to file for a legal separation while still maintaining your business relationship and friendship?

 

And if so, do you think that you both could handle it emotionally if one or the other started pursuing other romantic interests?

[CompliKated]

Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO

Do you think there is any chance that the two of you could come to a mutual agreement to file for a legal separation while still maintaining your business relationship and friendship?

 

And if so, do you think that you both could handle it emotionally if one or the other started pursuing other romantic interests?

 

I think that's where I'm heading. Just not sure how he will react. After all this time, I almost think he'd be relieved. I think I'm relieved that I've reconciled myself to believing that I can look at it in that light, rather than wishing for what isn't, or what may never be. Until now, I've wanted him to change, him to do this, do that - now I think I've finally come to acceptance that our relationship is what it is, and it's not likely to change. For the first time I can say I'm OK with that. I have a feeling that he's been towing the line, telling me what I want to hear, just so that whatever conflict we're having, will blow over (and that seems to work...). I really think that if he felt that there was romantic love left for us, that he would have expressed that somehow, done more, said more, something - but he hasn't. He's had every opportunity to do it, and hasn't taken it, so rather than feel upset about it, I'm just going to accept it finally, and hopefully move forward with my own personal development.

 

I'm not sure how to broach the subject with him - like I said before, I'm just going to wait until he initiates a conversation (conflict!) and try addressing it then.

 

CompliKated

[EnigmaXOXO]

Six years ago, I was at the same place as you are now. Married young, for fifteen years, and basically "grew up" within a marriage. Unfortunately, sometimes growing up means going in different directions.

 

We had a daughter, which is why I tried so hard to keep things together for as long as I could. We also owned a very successful business together which tied us together financially as well.

 

We decided "together" that the best course of action for us was to try a two-year separation. This way, there was plenty of time and personal freedom to decide in which direction our relationship would go from here. We continued counseling together, for our daughter's sake as well as our own, to give us the tools we needed to make a difficult transition go a bit smoother for all of us.

 

At the end of the two years, after eliminating the all the stress and emotional responsibilities that prevented me from seeing "the whole picture," I was in a better state of mind to make a healthier decision regarding what I needed and wanted for myself and from my life. It also gave us the time we needed to get our financial business in order.

 

With a little work, and being forced to find the patience with each other that we had somehow lost during our marriage, we somehow managed to avoid all the bickering, resentments and personal jealousy that often accompany many divorces.

 

I think if you and your husband are at the same level emotionally, and both agree that 'while you like each other, you are no longer in love,' than you can make that transition from a married couple to business partners with a little time and professional guidance.

 

And you never know, maybe by the end of the two years you might also realize that your bond goes deeper than you think, and those feelings of love and mutual respect might somehow be rekindled. It will give you the time you need to put your lives in order, both financially and emotionally before coming to any abrupt decisions that will affect the rest of your lives, as well as the lives of your children.

[CompliKated]

Thanks Enigma - that's the sort of response I was hoping to find - as someone who has walked that road, it's comforting to know that 1) I'm not alone and 2) It can be resolved, one way or another.

 

I have no ill will, no regrets - just I'm at a point in my life when I think a change needs to be made, for better or worse.

 

I'd still like to hear more input on this - it's all a lot to take in.

 

Enigma, how did you handle household arrangements? Did one move out? Did you stay in the same house, at least initially? Financially we just cannot do it with two households - my house is too small for me to have my "own room" without sacrificing a dining room or something... how do people deal with that?

 

I don't want to put the cart before the horse, but just thinking of possibilities ahead...

 

CompliKated

[EnigmaXOXO]

Enigma, how did you handle household arrangements? Did one move out? Did you stay in the same house, at least initially? Financially we just cannot do it with two households - my house is too small for me to have my "own room" without sacrificing a dining room or something... how do people deal with that?

 

I could not even imagine having to stay in the same home during the duration of a separation, although I know there are some people who have no choice because they have become financially dependant on their spouses. I think I would have preferred to live outside in a tent then endure that kind of torture!

 

He went to stay at his parent's house for a few months while they were away at their summer home in Florida. AND THEN…to my horror…he then purchased the home beside me where he remained for the duration of our separation. The old house was the one he grew up in (yes, he moved me beside his parents when we first got married)…and when the old house went up for sale, we were already considering purchasing it as a rental property and financial investment.

 

While he convinced me (after already moving in) that it was good idea in the sense that my daughter would have both of her parents nearby, it ultimately made things a bit more difficult for my husband to "let go." I also felt a bit smothered by his constant presence, but since I was not interested in bringing another man into my life at this point, I was able to adjust and find ways to avoid him by staying away from my home as much as possible.

 

Fortunately, I was eventually able to convince him to start dating again, and after a few disappointing attempts, he finally met someone who helped distract him and bring about some closure. They married six months later in Vegas, but my ex STILL refused move out of the house next door…while his new wife refused to move in! (Who could blame her?)

 

Finally realizing I had to make a break for it, I put up the “For Sale” sign in my own front yard and made plans to relocate out of state….Just to get away! But as fate would have it, I had met someone else myself right around this time and our friendship was beginning to develop into something more. I was an emotional wreck!!

 

Anyway, to make a long story short, it wasn’t until my current partner moved in that my ex finally snapped out of his denial and decided to leave his stronghold and take up residence with his new wife.

 

I know the whole story must sound absolutely crazy to someone who hasn’t been in this situation. Hell, when having to relive it, it even sounds crazy to me! And I often wonder in retrospect how I even managed to survive it. But I did…and so will you. You’d be surprised at what you are capable of doing when it becomes a matter of survival. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

[CompliKated]

Hmm well I have the opposite problem. We moved to the United States from Canada, for his job. We have no family here, just ourselves. Good and bad, because while we don't have any meddlesome family members in our midst, we are also far away from those who would help and support us.

 

I have a single female friend who "took me in" one weekend last Spring - I have no idea if she'd be up for a room-mate and I could ask, but don't want to put her on the spot either... a weekend away is one thing, a separate living arrangement is something else. She lives about 20 miles from here. One thing, my business is high-maintenance, I deal in the aquarium industry - turn your back for a minute on the shop and it floods... proximity is a necessity. In a pinch IF she were willing to take me on as a productive room-mate, I'd probably be able to squeeze a bit of money out of my business to pay my way... but again, I'm not going to assume that I could take up with her, or that it would work. Don't want to leave one problem to create another.

 

I don't think I'd ask him to move - I don't have the guts. Especially if I'm the "instigator" of this phase of things. On the other hand, I won't leave my kids either - and I know he won't... catch-22. That rules out moving in with my friend - I'm not uprooting the kids too, but I'm not going without them. As it is we live under the same roof - as room-mates (bed-mates... but not in the Biblical sense anymore, except rare occasions, but he mostly sleeps on the sofa), but nothing has been made "official".

 

On one hand I would think that a transition to a more formal separation would be easy, on the other hand, it could get ugly on his part, if he chooses to. I'm not interested in a battle - just some peace, and some relief.

 

Everybody's situation is different - and difficult. I wish I could just see it all clearly and see the right path.

 

This forum/thread at least has me thinking about things, examining options... I don't know what the answers are, but hoping I'll find something to guide me.

 

CompliKated

[CompliKated]

I'm still trying to figure out what to do. Does anybody else have anything to offer me? Food for thought?

 

I'm heavily leaning toward a separation. I think that's what I want - but I'm somewhat afraid to 'go there' with my husband...

 

Any tips for how to talk about it with somebody who gets defensive fast?

 

CompliKated

[mrfish]

This morning my wife of 18 years told me that I was out and then blew out of here and went to her sister's. This is not out of the blue, far from it. We have been discussing the possibility of an amicable separation all week, and the marriage feels the it is in the 15th round of a losing fight. So tonight I am looking for an understanding voice to hear and respond to.

Your situation has many parallels. We share a business already. I have a business of my own. I am offering support to my wife in a new venture that she is passionate about even though it is far from having any kind of real business plan to back it up. We have kids and a home that suits us both, but not much money - just enuf. I am the isolator, passive, sometimes passive aggressive, but never one to confront or be hostile. She grabs, holds on to and struggles to make the relationship work and demands more of me than I can give. I have gone through depression in the past and urge you to check out whether this is a player in your unhappiness together. Some people get irrationally angry and irritable as a symptom of depression rather than dark and gloomy as is commonly imagined.

We have worked at this for years and years and it just gets more worn down. Still, there is so much at stake. There is no easy way out. I would rather work out a way of living together and sharing what we have together, respecting one another and avoiding conflict. I am the sloppy one who needs to keep my disorder from imposing upon her. It feels like death to relinquish the sweet dreams of a loving and amorous mate. The hardest thing is to always be questioning and doubting myself as a husband and human being because this person I vowed to love is just not getting loved by me and vice versa. There is a lot of work to do to learn to love and affirm yourself. I have always been blown off my moorings by my wifes judgements of me. Only now am I finding firm ground where I can affirm myself no matter what negative meaning she gives to the things I do and don't do.

There is no failure, though there can still be pain and regret, in finding that you are a bad match with the person you married. We marry for many reasons that do not always stand the test of time. Good sex is certainly one of them. The bottom line for me is that there be a story that we can tell together that holds each of us with gentleness, respect and forgiveness. At this point in my life I can live without a successful marriage, but I cannot live within a story the degrades me and makes me the villian in my wife's drama. The only remedy I see for this is "deep listening" in which one person listens and reflects what the other says untill that person feels understood. If this doesn't work, I fear that it is a descent into divorce. My wife called me to talk again - full of pain and distrust, fear and seeking some hope. It is worth yet another try.

[CompliKated]

Wow - what an interesting perspective. You sound like you could be my husband. Even the screen name - scary.

 

I never considered depression as a reason for his demeanor, but what you say makes a lot of sense. Many in my husband's family have depression, and I'm not sure many or any ever dealt with it.

 

So where does it leave us? I'm still here, still isolated, still not talking about it because I don't want a fight or conflict. I'm sitting in limbo. How about you? Your wife left - has she spoken to you since? Where are you at now? Plans?

 

Your situation and mine are eerily similar - not assuming that we'll have the same outcome, but I'm curious to know how things are going for you.

 

CompliKated