She contacted me, wants to be together

[Chronotrgr]

As the title states, she's contacted me a few times over the last few days, her general message is that she wants to be together but to take things at a snails pace, I already knew this when she kicked me out, I told her at the time that I couldn't take the steps back that she needed and remain in the relationship especially since she stated we can't have nights together, will have to meet up in town rather than in private, and wouldn't be able to live together again even after a long break.

 

I know myself well enough to know I can't go along with this, I ended the relationship when I did not just because of that but because her mind set was basically "I want to live with you but I need to live alone" "I want to be close but I need space", this constant switch hitting has messed with my head.

 

I feel really hurt and I hate that she's making herself known like this, I love her and I miss her and long for her all the time but she's not exactly a lady of compromise so I feel like I need to stick with my decision, I never wanted to cut off from her completely, now it's looking like I have no choice.

 

Has anyone ever had something similar happen to them like this?, some insight in to her mind set would be very helpful right now.

[salparadise]

I know myself well enough to know I can't go along with this, I ended the relationship when I did not just because of that but because her mind set was basically "I want to live with you but I need to live alone" "I want to be close but I need space", this constant switch hitting has messed with my head.

 

Has anyone ever had something similar happen to them like this?, some insight in to her mind set would be very helpful right now.

 

It's usually called the push-pull. Switch hitting often refers to bisexuality. But yea, I get it. There are people, quite a number it seems, who can't tolerate intimacy and also have abandonment issues (fears). When you get too close and their feelings of vulnerability arise they push you away; when you give them as much or more space as they say the need, their fear of being abandoned, being alone kick in and they try to pull you back in. If you manage to stabilize a relationship with this dynamic it will be you pursuing, pursuing, pursuing and her forever holding you at arm's length and giving you just enough to keep you from saying, screw it- I'm done.

 

People with cluster B disorders often do this, but other people do too so it's not highly indicative of a PD. But it is highly indicative of a pattern that you won't be able to change no matter how hard you try. I have dated a couple of them and I was married to one, so I realize that it's something I just don't have any tolerance for. People who do this typically have turbulent, drama-filled relationships and just when you start to think, wow we've gone a whole month with no bull$hit... boom.

 

Let me guess... her and her mother aren't very close, or have considerable drama in their relationship?

[Chronotrgr]

You just described the relationship I was in to a T, since being with her I have experienced more drama on her part than I have ever known in my lifetime, it's been extremely difficult to cope at times, If it wasn't drama in her life it was drama she crested in the relationship, everybody has disagreements, I've had plenty in past relationships, however both myself and ex partners could leave it at an argument and accept it for what it was, this hasn't been the case for this relationship, everything that could be taken the wrong way is taken the wrong way, I see things 99% of the time for the way they are, an apple is an apple and it is not an orange (if that makes any sense), in this relationship it's almost as if she makes something up in her mind and rolls with it as truth, it's frustrating trying ri described to anybody what I mean.

 

I ended it when she kicked me out because I had lost my tolerance after holding out for a long time, after 2 months almost of no arguments after our last break up, out of nowhere she seemed to magic a problem that never was out of thin air and ran with it, as you say, I have continuously perused her in efforts to put things in the right perspectives to no avail, I would love to be with her but I have no faith she will ever kick this dreadful habit.

 

And lastly, yes her and her mother are 2 peas in a pod, her mother couldn't live with her and kicked her out, now I can see why, age's nucking futs lol.

[salparadise]

...would love to be with her but I have no faith she will ever kick this dreadful habit.

 

And lastly, yes her and her mother are 2 peas in a pod, her mother couldn't live with her and kicked her out, now I can see why, age's nucking futs lol.

 

I thought it sounded like the pattern I am all too familiar with. But let's get one distinction clear... this is not merely a dreadful habit. Bad habits can be replaced with healthy behaviors. What you're experiencing is an issue related to her core being... in other words it's not just a behavior- she's hardwired this way.

 

How do you supposed I guessed that she had issues with her mother? Coincidence? Nah. Etiology. In early development there is a window during which the core sense of self is formed. It requires a secure bond and effective nurturing from the mother (or primary caregiver), and if that bond is interrupted or never properly formed then it [usually] manifests as an incomplete sense of self. That is the source of behavioral pattern.

 

Several such patterns are categorized and named. The push-pull behavior is common in the group known as "Cluster B."

 

You can google that term and read descriptions and see if any seem to be particularly apt. I would qualify this by saying that everyone has some of the traits, so labels are only applied via professional evaluations that measure quantity and degree in the context of accepted norms. This article gives a broad overview if you're interested.

 

The bottom line is that it's only important to recognize the behavior as being consistent with a pattern, and as being incompatible with healthy relationships. You can't fix it (assuming this is what it is); you have to choose between living with it or not. And the former is nuking futz, as you say.

Edited December 10, 2015 by salparadise

[Hell Yeah]

I thought it sounded like the pattern I am all too familiar with. But let's get one distinction clear... this is not merely a dreadful habit. Bad habits can be replaced with healthy behaviors. What you're experiencing is an issue related to her core being... in other words it's not just a behavior- she's hardwired this way.

 

How do you supposed I guessed that she had issues with her mother? Coincidence? Nah. Etiology. In early development there is a window during which the core sense of self is formed. It requires a secure bond and effective nurturing from the mother (or primary caregiver), and if that bond is interrupted or never properly formed then it [usually] manifests as an incomplete sense of self. That is the source of behavioral pattern.

 

Several such patterns are categorized and named. The push-pull behavior is common in the group known as "Cluster B."

 

You can google that term and read descriptions and see if any seem to be particularly apt. I would qualify this by saying that everyone has some of the traits, so labels are only applied via professional evaluations that measure quantity and degree in the context of accepted norms. This article gives a broad overview if you're interested.

 

The bottom line is that it's only important to recognize the behavior as being consistent with a pattern, and as being incompatible with healthy relationships. You can't fix it (assuming this is what it is); you have to choose between living with it or not. And the former is nuking futz, as you say.

 

Wow

 

This has been my life for the last 18 months until I was pushed yet again to walk away

 

It really takes everything out of you and puts you into a state of temp insanity.

 

She recently contacted me a couple of months ago trying to be all friendly and chummy..........I went nuts at her which was the last thing I wanted to do to her and importantly myself, its out of character for me but I had to cut the cord still attached there

 

Had no choice though as the cycle of the push pull scared the hell of me again......only so much your mind and heart can take especially when it's been broken

 

Very sad really that others are like this, inflict it and that we take it

[Chronotrgr]

I was with her for 18 months, I probably should have realised it was no bad habit when I never saw a change in her behaviour, not even a little despite her saying she recognised it and would do something about it.

 

From how I perceive her mother, I am not surprised that she wound up the way she did, her mother is off her nut 24/7, before we lived together I can't say I ever remember having a phone call with her without her mother screaming and shouting in the background.

 

I'm guessing cluster b is a phrase for someone with a personality disorder?, I actually sought counselling as I felt I was going nuts and I wasn't sure why, my dad died 2 years a go, I thought maybe I was grieving from that, but my counsellor coined the phrase cluster b as the similarities in certain personality disorder's are very alike.

 

When I brought up feeling like I was going nuts because I was confused about no longer knowing the meaning of things I say or the actions for which I do, in regards to the ex, she mentioned a term called gas lighting, I feel like I've been subject to this all this time.

 

It's difficult to describe what gas lighting is (I'm sure you know all about it though) basically its as you say, push and pull, manipulative behaviour to make you *****ing nut's and bend to their will.

 

I have had exes reach out to me in the past after breaking up at one point or another, I'm used to the whole process but in this case, I've never known anything like it, it's like I'm being dictated to go back and I'm expected to abide by how she wants it to go, no its buts coconuts, I was used to this pattern in the relationship, the whole stripping of any power and having to lower my expectations to prevent myself from walking away.

 

Thinking back, if I had anything to say that went against the grain she would flip out immediately and dismiss it, somehow twisting it to make me feel guilty for even going against or questioning her, it's amazing how much I had to look the other way to be with her, the only way I can describe the behaviour is that it hits you like a whirlwind and leaves you dazed and confused, until you just give up and drop it through lack of being able to understand what on earth is even going on.

 

When I ended it I think I understood in my heart and mind that finally, I hit my limit and the brick wall was right there in front of me, I could do no more short of sacrificing my sanity to go further, none of her demands made sense, the fact that I was being thrown out in the first place didn't make sense, but this time she couldn't spin it.

 

I spent the 3 months of being back together essentially silent, I didn't put a foot wrong, and even when she was flipping out finding faults where there was none, I remained calm and didn't react, it was like I turned myself invisible and let it all go through me, this gave me the opportunity to observe her and see her for the irrational mess that she truly was.

[Itspointless]

"I want to live with you but I need to live alone" "I want to be close but I need space"

Or as Stan Taktin doctor in psychology describes it: 'I want you in the house but not in my room ... unless I invite you ', http://www.mishpaha.org.il/kvatzim/pdf/Tatkin-Addiction-to-Alone-Time.pdf This is one of the articles that really helped me. Perhaps this profile does not fit her reading your posts, but perhaps she shows some elements and with that it perhaps can give you some insides and at some point closure.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Itspointless

[salparadise]

I'm guessing cluster b is a phrase for someone with a personality disorder?, I actually sought counselling as I felt I was going nuts and I wasn't sure why, my dad died 2 years a go, I thought maybe I was grieving from that, but my counsellor coined the phrase cluster b as the similarities in certain personality disorder's are very alike.

 

Yes, cluster b is the category for dramatic, emotional PDs. Borderline, narcissistic, histrionic, antisocial are in this group. They have certain similarities and patients often exhibit characteristics from more than one.

 

When I brought up feeling like I was going nuts because I was confused about no longer knowing the meaning of things I say or the actions for which I do, in regards to the ex, she mentioned a term called gas lighting, I feel like I've been subject to this all this time.

 

It's difficult to describe what gas lighting is (I'm sure you know all about it though) basically its as you say, push and pull, manipulative behaviour to make you *****ing nut's and bend to their will.

 

Gas lighting is when they manipulate and try to convince you to doubt your own sanity... that you can't trust your own instincts and reality testing.

 

I was used to this pattern in the relationship, the whole stripping of any power and having to lower my expectations to prevent myself from walking away.

 

Thinking back, if I had anything to say that went against the grain she would flip out immediately and dismiss it, somehow twisting it to make me feel guilty for even going against or questioning her, it's amazing how much I had to look the other way to be with her, the only way I can describe the behaviour is that it hits you like a whirlwind and leaves you dazed and confused, until you just give up and drop it through lack of being able to understand what on earth is even going on.

 

You end up giving up pieces of yourself to appease and avoid triggering another splitting episode. It's detrimental to your psyche to be in these relationships.

 

...even when she was flipping out finding faults where there was none, I remained calm and didn't react, it was like I turned myself invisible and let it all go through me, this gave me the opportunity to observe her and see her for the irrational mess that she truly was.

 

This is the best way to deal with them- refusing to engage, being assertive, and letting them go through the spin cycle all by themselves. In doing so you soon realize how futile it is to think about them being able to engage in a healthy relationship.

 

Watch for the signs and make sure your next relationship is with a healthy person. There is a tendency to keep falling for the same types, and they are good at spotting and attracting people who are susceptible.

 

It takes awhile to recover. You're likely to have some ptsd-like symptoms to work through, as it is traumatizing and leaves you befuddled and confused.

[S2B]

The kind of person you are describing is best left not being any part of your life.

 

You should NEVER need to be silent and invisible in order to be with someone!

 

Why haven't you blocked her? She's full of drama and the only way to keep the drama away is to stop communicating with them all together!

 

They are like a tornado. No need to get sucked in. They will suck in anyone willing to listen - oh ya, and it's never their fault!

 

She's not changed - so there's no reason to go backwards for more of her torture.

 

She will find her next willing victim - don't let it be you.

[Downtown]

I'm guessing cluster b is a phrase for someone with a personality disorder?

Chrono, you are fortunate to have attracted the attention of SalParadise, ItsPointless, HellYeah, and S2B. I agree with all the excellent advice they have given you. As Sal said, you're describing the symptoms for "Cluster B" PDs. Specifically, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums and drama, lack of impulse control, low empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

 

Importantly, neither Sal nor I am suggesting your exGF has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it. I further caution that BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your exGF exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

 

I've been trolled by what seems to be a very bipolar woman.... her mania has probably rubbed off on me lol [your July 20 post].

About a third of female BPDers also suffer from co-occurring bipolar-1 disorder, in which mania is exhibited occasionally. Unlike BPD, bipolar-1 is a disease -- not a personality disorder -- and thus usually can be treated quite successfully by swallowing a pill. I observe, however, that aside from this brief reference to "her mania" last July, you don't actually describe any manic behavior in any of your threads.

 

Perhaps you are confusing manic traits with BPD traits. I therefore suggest that you read my description of the differences between the two at my post, 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences. It is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW).

 

I actually sought counseling as I felt I was going nuts.

If you've been living with a BPDer for over a year, "nuts" is exactly how you should be feeling. Of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious -- by far -- for making a large share of the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. Indeed, therapists see far more of those folks coming in (to find out if they are going crazy) than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

It's difficult to describe what gas lighting is.

As Sal explains, it is "when they manipulate and try to convince you to doubt your own sanity... that you can't trust your own instincts and reality testing." This "crazy making" behavior of Cluster B sufferers is so well known that the abused partners have gave it a label -- naming it after the classic 1944 movie "Gaslight," in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to get her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. One of his many tricks is to turn the home's gas lights down a tiny bit every day -- all the while claiming that he is able to see and read just fine.

 

Actually, this term "gaslighting" is appropriate for the narcissists and sociopaths, because they are very manipulative and do try to confuse their partners. It is inappropriate, however, for the vast majority of the crazy making behavior of BPDers because it is not really intended to make you feel confused or crazy. Rather, a BPDer's "crazymaking effect" on partners is largely the result of her subconscious mind protecting her fragile ego by projecting all her mistakes and shortcomings onto her partner.

 

The beauty of projection -- and the reason that BPDers rely on it so heavily -- is that it occurs entirely at the subconscious level, allowing the BPDers to be adamantly convinced the projections are true. Hence, unlike lies (which BPDers will do when trapped), the projections are entirely guilt free -- an important attribute to folks who are filled with so much self loathing that guilt is a very painful experience.

 

I mention all of this to explain why it usually is much more confusing and disorienting to fall in love with a BPDer than with a narcissist or sociopath. Namely, the BPDer typically is absolutely convinced that the outrageous accusations coming out of her mouth are true. And a week later, when she is claiming the exact opposite, she likely will be convinced that is true too. The result is that BPDers tend to be far more convincing than the other Cluster B sufferers -- as will be apparent if a BPDer ever calls the police and tries to get you arrested on a bogus charge (as my BPDer exW did to me).

 

Does anyone have some insight into her mind set?

SalParadise and ItsPointless have already provided you with a good Cluster B information to digest. Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your exGF's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid taking her back or running straight into the arms of another woman who is just like her.

 

If you want more information on BPD, I suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join Sal, ItsPointless, and other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Chrono.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Downtown

[Chronotrgr]

Thank you for that extremely detailed reply Downtown and to everyone else who took the time to reply, I appreciate it.

 

I've took a few day's to digest what I've been told initially, but this reply blew my mind, I'm convinced now more than ever that I've been experiencing a relationship in which BPD is present.

 

It doesn't take anything away from this experience sadly, least not the pain, suffering and major loss of confidence, but it helps and gives strength to understand what's been going on, at the very least I can take away some of my apparent wrongs and work to fix on the wrongs that I actually know and recognise.

 

I blocked her on everything apart from texts, simply because I didn't know how to block her on that, I've observed her patterns in her messages from day to day and unsurprisingly the tone is never the same, she thinks something on the day and rolls with it until the next bwhen she has thought of something else, walls go up and down all of the time.

 

I wouldn't ever go back to her now, I tried that once and it did nothing for me other than make matters worse.

[betterfly]

Chronotgr,

 

HI!

 

As someone, who showed very similar traits as your ex in my own relationship with my ex boyfriend, I have a question for you: you say you would never go back to her.. What if she changed?

 

I know that what ifs are not reality, but if you could imagine her without that push and pull tendency and other "crazy" behaviours, do you think you'd still choose her over other people?

 

I have been reading this forum a lot, and have been trying to change myself. I know that it might take a long time and I might not even want my ex back when I feel better, but would still like to know your opinion.

 

Thank you!

 

PS: I think it is a little bit cruel to be blocking her without letting her know (or did you?). I am going to block my ex from everywhere to help me heal, but I decided to let him know.

[Itspointless]

Chronotgr,

 

HI!

 

As someone, who showed very similar traits as your ex in my own relationship with my ex boyfriend, I have a question for you: you say you would never go back to her.. What if she changed?

 

I know that what ifs are not reality, but if you could imagine her without that push and pull tendency and other "crazy" behaviours, do you think you'd still choose her over other people?

 

I have been reading this forum a lot, and have been trying to change myself. I know that it might take a long time and I might not even want my ex back when I feel better, but would still like to know your opinion.

 

Thank you!

 

PS: I think it is a little bit cruel to be blocking her without letting her know (or did you?). I am going to block my ex from everywhere to help me heal, but I decided to let him know.

Hi betterfly I am not sure why you ask Chronotrgr, except for reassurance. Let me tell you, I am two years past and I think I would take my ex back within an heartbeat (yeah pathetic I know) )if you fairy-tail possibility would be the reality. But lets be real, it is never going to happen, is it?

[Downtown]

As someone, who showed very similar traits as your ex in my own relationship with my ex boyfriend, I have a question....

Betterfly, welcome to LoveShack. I will be responding in the "Exhausted" thread you started today.

[Chronotrgr]

Hi Betterfly, I'll answer your last question first, I told her after the whole move out process that I couldn't continue the relationship and out of my pure love for her I wouldn't be able to have any contact with her because it would cause me too much pain hearing her voice, seeing her face, just knowing we've lost what we had, would all be too much to move on from If we tried to bs ourselves by saying we could be friends.

 

I think in my case, there's too much water under the bridge, I love her with all my heart and I honestly don't believe she is a bad person, but she hit my limit and then some for a very long time, there had been times simply because she had been mad at me for whatever reason that she would lash out at me, it didn't seem to matter when, I went through a period of being in and out of the hospital quite a bit at one point, she wasn't too kind before during and after, but the kicker for me was that I has 2 funerals, one was my nan and the other was a close family friend back in August, she made those days hell.

 

If it wasn't for that, maybe I could give you a different answer because truthfully she was a different woman than the one I portrayed there, she was a woman I'd have married and had children with, and that for me is the saddest thing, that such a beautiful wonderful warm hearted lady could be overshadowed and snap at any moment.

 

After this relationship I plan on retiring from the scene for a very long time, in part because every ounce of my being is exhausted, the other part, because at our best, nothing can compare, I wouldn't have and still never would put anyone else above her or chose anyone else over her.

 

Despite the pain she caused I always felt her problems made her who she was and to me, inside out she was still the most beautiful human around, at least in my eyes.

 

I hope that helps?.