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What do unattractive men stand to gain from being feminist allies?


AlexanderEschate

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AlexanderEschate

Do I agree that women are generally at a disadvantage in the work force and in certain fields? Absolutely. As someone who works in the tech industry, I strongly agree. Although there are plenty of talented women and things are getting better, it is still very much a work in progress.

 

When I say "unattractive men", I don't mean just physically. I mean men who have trouble getting dates and attracting women for all kinds of reasons whether its poor looks, lack of self-confidence, limiting beliefs, etc. Whatever is the case, these are men who lack the ability to attract women.

 

Often times, these very men are very successful in other aspects of their lives, including career. In this fast-paced world, in order to be an ally to a disadvantaged group, you need to take valuable time and effort from an already super busy work week in order to do this. Many of us just want to perform our roles to the best of our ability and go home to our personal lives. If you want to be an ally, you really have to go above and beyond what you're already doing.

 

I agree that many women in the workplace can benefit from having allies but what is the incentive for successful but unattractive men to do so? We may agree women should be given more support but that means taking more out of our own work day in fulfililng our own workplace obligations.

 

A lot of us also feel there's no incentive for us to do so. Because time and time again, we see the better looking douchey guys who get all the women despite being jobless. I can't tell you the amount of guys I know who have no careers and are lost but still able to attract plenty of women due to their good looks, confidence and charm.

 

You may say personal life has nothing to do with this and that it's about the principle of it all. Fair enough. But I've seen unattractive but successful men in the workplace become allies to women only to be accused of trying to curry favour or being "white knights" in order to get female attention.

 

A good looking, handsome guy would never be accused of such a thing should he become an ally but unattractive men, no matter how sincere, ARE accused of it. After all, why else would he do such a thing? It must be because his love life sucks and he's unattractive and this is the only way to get any sort of female attention.

 

So even if you're sincere, you're gonna be accused by other guys and maybe even other women of being a white knight.

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You don't take moral or ethical stances because you "stand to gain" anything. You do it because you believe it's the right thing to do.

Edited by lana-banana
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I'm trying to figure out if there's a specific question, or if you are positing theories in the hypothetical purely for academic interest, or if you have been accused feigning allegiance to the feminist cause for self-serving purposes. This forum works so much better if you just say what your issue actually is. Also, I think you're conflating two concepts that are mostly separate.

 

First let's look at the feminist stuff. Lots and lots of men (average, attractive, unattractive) are aligned with the core values of gender equality, myself among them. However, few of these men are taking time from their work day to promote feminism, much less to the extent that it would be noticed. It's the values we hold, part of our being. If I were directed to use an hour of my day to "help" women colleagues I would have a hard time converting that into actionable tasks. So it a guy is walking around the office patting women on the back and saying "I'm here to help you today because I'm a feminist," people are going to think he's a nutcase regardless of whether he's attractive or unattractive.

 

Now, another piece of this is advocating for a group you do not belong to. This is mostly* not done, not at the expense of your own performance/success especially. It's going to be suspect... what's that crazy little phukker up to now?

About 99.99 percent of people who actively advocate for a group are doing so for self-interest, not pure altruism (if there is such a thing). It's a tough sell even if you're sincere, and people are going to question your motive.

 

*I'm not saying never; there are contexts where it seems normal and acceptable, and others where it does not. Joining a women's rights march, yes. Standing on a desk in the middle of the office and speechifying at 10am on a Tuesday, no. Politicians are a different context altogether.

 

Women's acceptance of attractive men vs. distain for unattractive men has been discussed ad nauseam. It's not going to mater one whit whether you're trying to help them by promoting feminism. If they were stranded beside the road on a cold, rainy night and you stopped and got their car restarted, then asked them to follow to your place to dry their clothes, the only thing that matters is whether they're attracted. If attracted, no problem. If not, you're a disgusting pig. It's that simple.

 

So in a nutshell, if you want women to like you, be attractive. If you want people to question your motives, spend your time and resources advocating for a group you don't belong to.

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I am also confused by the point/purpose of your post? There is a world of difference between men being helpful to others at work and men crossing the line into being accused of inappropriate behavior.

 

But I'm also struggling to see how it has anything to do with being a feminist ally?

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Do I agree that women are generally at a disadvantage in the work force and in certain fields? Absolutely. As someone who works in the tech industry, I strongly agree. Although there are plenty of talented women and things are getting better, it is still very much a work in progress.

 

When I say "unattractive men", I don't mean just physically. I mean men who have trouble getting dates and attracting women for all kinds of reasons whether its poor looks, lack of self-confidence, limiting beliefs, etc. Whatever is the case, these are men who lack the ability to attract women.

 

Often times, these very men are very successful in other aspects of their lives, including career. In this fast-paced world, in order to be an ally to a disadvantaged group, you need to take valuable time and effort from an already super busy work week in order to do this. Many of us just want to perform our roles to the best of our ability and go home to our personal lives. If you want to be an ally, you really have to go above and beyond what you're already doing.

 

I agree that many women in the workplace can benefit from having allies but what is the incentive for successful but unattractive men to do so? We may agree women should be given more support but that means taking more out of our own work day in fulfililng our own workplace obligations.

 

A lot of us also feel there's no incentive for us to do so. Because time and time again, we see the better looking douchey guys who get all the women despite being jobless. I can't tell you the amount of guys I know who have no careers and are lost but still able to attract plenty of women due to their good looks, confidence and charm.

 

You may say personal life has nothing to do with this and that it's about the principle of it all. Fair enough. But I've seen unattractive but successful men in the workplace become allies to women only to be accused of trying to curry favour or being "white knights" in order to get female attention.

 

A good looking, handsome guy would never be accused of such a thing should he become an ally but unattractive men, no matter how sincere, ARE accused of it. After all, why else would he do such a thing? It must be because his love life sucks and he's unattractive and this is the only way to get any sort of female attention.

 

So even if you're sincere, you're gonna be accused by other guys and maybe even other women of being a white knight.

 

The President managed to attract a top super model despite being elderly, average in terms of facial aesthetics, and being obese, or close to it. Being successful at business, at sports, at anything really usually translates into being able of attracting attractive women.

 

Because let's be honest here. These guys who are complaining that they can't get women aren't saying women aren't attracted to them.

 

What they mean is that Natalie Portman isn't interested in them. I disagree with the rest. I've known of very physically attractive men who were accused of acting like white knights to get in the pants of a specific woman. I really have no idea about the rest.

 

I don't associate with unattractive men, making it impossible for me to say anything related to how women treat unattractive men in comparison to how women treat the men who take care of themselves, but I do know that a guy being good-looking doesn't make him immune to being treated like a douchebag if he acts like one.

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Validation from the group ?

Following the societal norms of the day ?

Distancing themselves from the "macho" personae that feminists criticize but sleep with ?

 

 

Unattractive men have 2 options :

 

 

- follow the norms and gain a little bit of tribal acceptance in order to fit in, eat the leftovers from their better (ie being an emotional transition for used women);

 

 

- be different and rely on luck and opportunities to find temporary shelter into a woman's bedroom;

 

 

 

Either way, they'll remain unnatractive, because their genes and upbringing made them so.

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I'm having a problem because you're talking about supporting women in the workplace, which infers you're already at least a level above them to be in a position to help them rise in the ranks. In the workplace, if anyone asks, you tell them who is going a good job that you know of, whether male or female. But the best way to support women in the workplace if you are a coworker is simply not to expect her to candycoat it anytime she has to work with you or get you to do something and not expect her to be more nurturing than the male counterparts who don't get called the B word for just bluntly saying "This needs to be done." Respect, that's all women want in the workplace, and for the bosses, that means being paid as well as the men if they're doing equal work.

 

You shouldn't be pandering to women in the workplace because you're hoping to be rewarded for it. That's actually the kind of crap that will get you in trouble. She doesn't owe you anything if she's doing her job.

 

Example, I ended up working with an ex. I was passionate about this field of work. It was my Number 1 priority. I was going to do it no matter what it took or where it took me. When I switched jobs, it made sense to go the the company he was employed at. But I was going to be in the retail end of it, not where he was, in the corporate offices. But then he basically worked it for me to be his assistant. So 10 years of this. During this time, he felt like he was doing me a favor, apparently, but the truth is, I was doing this in spite of him, not because of him. I was going to get where I needed to be and I didn't need any help from him. I had more years of experience than he did. I had even worked at that same company, then left, then worked somewhere else, a competitor, then came back to the company but in a different state. I had more years at the company and in the business than he did.

 

Things got ugly when he was trying to keep control and keep me from gaining ground professionally. I pulled a coup by writing letters to the board of directors (the company had recently gone public) when I wasn't getting anywhere with him and outlined why I thought purchasing needed to be divided up a certain way for the time being (as a new format was being released) I got that position and got written up in the local business section, etc.

 

And boy, did it make the good ol' boy network mad. Again, he wanted me to stay in a position where he threw breadcrumbs and it was all up to him, but my priority was my career, not propping up his ego. And the VP, who was new, started angling to get rid of me, which he did but it took about 3 years since I didn't do anything wrong.

 

Workplace politics can get very dicey, and I would advise you to just do your job and stay out of it and not worry about who those female coworkers are dating, because that's none ya business.

Edited by preraph
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In this fast-paced world, in order to be an ally to a disadvantaged group, you need to take valuable time and effort from an already super busy work week in order to do this.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about here. What exactly does one do during that valuable time off?

 

Taking it further, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in the workplace.

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Apologies everyone, the OP found themselves banned this morning and I forgot to close the thread.

 

 

 

I'm sure their next incarnation will appreciate all the replies.

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