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In Search Of... Having a hard time forming friendships or finding companions, lovers, or associates? Is someone pursuing an unwelcome relationship with you? Talk about your experiences here.

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Old 10th February 2018, 12:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by GemmaUK View Post
Fantastic! Good first choice to make.
So no more contacting or continuing chatting or going on first meets with someone you're not at all interested in.
Also, a good choice made on if you do find someone to not be for you to still treat them with kindness, respect and manners, not to do what you have done and become dismissive.
A meet or date doesn't go on forever so there is no need to not treat someone well for the whole entire date.


Then don't chat with them or agree to meet them in future.


At way over 30 I am still learning, if you let go of the break pedal then there's loads you can learn too and it just becomes a part of you - but it seems you are coming around to that.


OK, so you have chosen your goal too - excellent!
Sounds like you're choosing also, to be less picky and to let go of some of the barriers you stringently hold up.
The struggle is going to be a lot less so as you seem to have come around to making some permanent changes. Now is the time to get doing some reading and research and applying tips and tricks into your daily life.
Body language, PUA tips I think would also help you. You don't need to be fake and go the whole hog, it's just little things to adopt and adapt to try out with anyone anywhere. These things will also teach you to read people better as you will be watching for reactions and gauging them.
Find yourself a good big website with books and reviews
The Joy of Sex is an oldie but a must read if you haven't already too which will give you loads of advice for not just sex but learning about touch and intimacy too.
Touch is so very important, it's that gentle further step from getting to the point of having fun on a date and where you reach the point of bouncing off one another, touch is the next crucial step before kissing.


Absolutely 100%!!! You have nothing to lose at all! I'm so glad you finally see this.
Good for you! I'm glad you are seeing that things need to change, it will take work and perseverance but it will so very worth it!


And learning all these new things and making changes will keep you busy, it will have it's good and bad points sure but it's going to seriously ease that loneliness.


The question I have is this, if my body language is good enough and I look good enough, would I get approached?


Its easy not to be too lonely, just do more work!


I think you have missed some of the point, I am always kind and well mannered even if the person sitting across from me isn't my cup of tea.


I have been reading a bit about body language, there are a few basic things that one can do but I suspect my problem lies also with my inability to relate to people and vice versa.
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Old 10th February 2018, 2:01 PM   #47
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The question I have is this, if my body language is good enough and I look good enough, would I get approached?


Its easy not to be too lonely, just do more work!


I think you have missed some of the point, I am always kind and well mannered even if the person sitting across from me isn't my cup of tea.


I have been reading a bit about body language, there are a few basic things that one can do but I suspect my problem lies also with my inability to relate to people and vice versa.
I personally don't doubt that you are a kind well-mannered guy whether you like the girl or not, ZA. In any case, that is great that you are.

The things that (we suspect) you are not doing on your dates (to quite their disappointment)--connecting emotionally with them, coming across diffident/not masculine, not LEADING the interaction in a more romantic direction, have already been covered in your threads already. I also suspect that there is something else going on.

Tinder tends to be a pretty tough environment, as many dating apps are. It really is about initial attraction. I suspect that you actually are a good-looking guy in your photos, and so when women off Tinder come out to meet you, they are disappointed that you aren't as confident as they imagined. In a way, a more average-looking guy may have it easier, in that he may be cut more slack as the woman has lower expectations coming in.

My point of all this is that you and Tinder just seem to be a bad match in general.

Have you considered a match-making service. They do require money to sign up but it sounds that you make a decent living so you can quite afford it. You will be screened to your dates and your dates will be screened to you, so the likelihood of the date being a successful one is much higher.

ETA: To answer your question, likely no you still won't get approached, it is on us as men to do the approaching. However, women will be more open to you approaching though.
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Old 10th February 2018, 2:33 PM   #48
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Funny that you mention that because I by and large don't make rash emotional decisions at all. I weigh up odd and probabilities and then decide which way to go. Which means often decision take time. Do I regret missing out sometimes because of this sure but I'd regret a bad decision more if it was made on impulse.


There isn't a past and when I say that its game over so how I react is irrelevant, someone who might be half keen is immediately put off. Clearly past does matter, even though I think its completely silly to delve extensively into the past because posters here keep telling me "you can change to something else" which makes the past even less relevant. Nobody is the same person they were 5 years ago.
That's exactly my point. You are too logical. I don't say this as an insult, I say this because I am the exact same way. Why should you bother wasting your time if you know your end goal is not going to be met?

Here's why: you need practice. Guys in general are logical creatures yet we are attracted to illogical creatures (women) yet expect them to play by our logical rules. It doesn't work that way. You can meet a girl and think "I'm attractive, I have a good job, she laughs at my jokes, she should like me". But you are forgetting the most important part - her emotions.

Every date is an opportunity to practice. You have to take clues from her and adjust your behavior accordingly. Last night's date was with a chick who was forced way too much in her masculine through life circumstances. As a result I turned up my alpha game to put her more in her feminine. This meant I had to call her out on stuff she said, stand my ground on beliefs which challenged hers, and assure her I wasn't beta through my actions.

Is she good long term material? No. But I make the choice to continue mine. That's how you have to apply logic. And experiences such as this prepare me for when a more feminine woman (which is what I want) tests me to ensure I'm a centered man.

Tomorrow's chick is similar though text (haven't spoke yet). I get the impression I've got to break through her hard candy shell in order to get to the soft center. She has tested me via text so far and I've passed. Will she be LTR material? Probably not. But again, from every chick I dated I've learned something.

And the great thing about dating a chick who's not LTR material is you can mess up and it doesn't matter as much. The last one I dated would voice her objections about ANYTHING she wasn't happy about. It forced me to evaluate my behavior in some situations. Situations that, had I known the emotional impact, I would not have done with my last girlfriend and could have perhaps prevented her from leaving.

Don't go out expecting to find a perfect girl. Even if you find one who seems great you may not feel the same after the honeymoon period wears off (3 months - 2 years). Years ago my friend gave me some good advice ""F her first, then decide if she is gf material". Granted, this has resulted in some numbers which a lot of women may not find acceptable (again, I've learned to lie..lol), but it forces you to judge her worthiness by her actions. For the women I've dated seriously, I had no choice but to commit to them. They were leaps and bounds above the other women I had dated in the way they acted.

If you are going out expecting to fail because of your lack of experience, you will. I can only imagine the facial expression/body language you have when asked - even if you don't think you do. Like she just told you she kills puppies for fun. Learn to control your thoughts or they will be your undoing. Practice with a friend and have them ask you about your past and give you feedback. Come up with a positive spin "I've met a lot of great people but no one I wanted to get serious with. The good news is it's just a matter of time before I do!" People like positivity, give it to them.

It took me a while to learn this but I'm pretty good on dates now. The hardest part is finding women who think you're attractive enough to go out with. Once you get them out 90% of the battle has been won. The rest is up to you.
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Old 10th February 2018, 3:16 PM   #49
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That's exactly my point. You are too logical. I don't say this as an insult, I say this because I am the exact same way. Why should you bother wasting your time if you know your end goal is not going to be met?

Here's why: you need practice. Guys in general are logical creatures yet we are attracted to illogical creatures (women) yet expect them to play by our logical rules. It doesn't work that way. You can meet a girl and think "I'm attractive, I have a good job, she laughs at my jokes, she should like me". But you are forgetting the most important part - her emotions.

Every date is an opportunity to practice. You have to take clues from her and adjust your behavior accordingly. Last night's date was with a chick who was forced way too much in her masculine through life circumstances. As a result I turned up my alpha game to put her more in her feminine. This meant I had to call her out on stuff she said, stand my ground on beliefs which challenged hers, and assure her I wasn't beta through my actions.

Is she good long term material? No. But I make the choice to continue mine. That's how you have to apply logic. And experiences such as this prepare me for when a more feminine woman (which is what I want) tests me to ensure I'm a centered man.

Tomorrow's chick is similar though text (haven't spoke yet). I get the impression I've got to break through her hard candy shell in order to get to the soft center. She has tested me via text so far and I've passed. Will she be LTR material? Probably not. But again, from every chick I dated I've learned something.

And the great thing about dating a chick who's not LTR material is you can mess up and it doesn't matter as much. The last one I dated would voice her objections about ANYTHING she wasn't happy about. It forced me to evaluate my behavior in some situations. Situations that, had I known the emotional impact, I would not have done with my last girlfriend and could have perhaps prevented her from leaving.

Don't go out expecting to find a perfect girl. Even if you find one who seems great you may not feel the same after the honeymoon period wears off (3 months - 2 years). Years ago my friend gave me some good advice ""F her first, then decide if she is gf material". Granted, this has resulted in some numbers which a lot of women may not find acceptable (again, I've learned to lie..lol), but it forces you to judge her worthiness by her actions. For the women I've dated seriously, I had no choice but to commit to them. They were leaps and bounds above the other women I had dated in the way they acted.

If you are going out expecting to fail because of your lack of experience, you will. I can only imagine the facial expression/body language you have when asked - even if you don't think you do. Like she just told you she kills puppies for fun. Learn to control your thoughts or they will be your undoing. Practice with a friend and have them ask you about your past and give you feedback. Come up with a positive spin "I've met a lot of great people but no one I wanted to get serious with. The good news is it's just a matter of time before I do!" People like positivity, give it to them.

It took me a while to learn this but I'm pretty good on dates now. The hardest part is finding women who think you're attractive enough to go out with. Once you get them out 90% of the battle has been won. The rest is up to you.


This is a really good post and I read it a few times. As you say a date is an opportunity to practice which has been my view but the only way I have been able to get that practice is to go out with people I don't really find attractive.


You say adapt and I get that but honestly I have been so short of dates that I tend to be very careful what I say lest I get a mouthful which might be the wrong way to go about it. The result is I hold back.


I think you touch on why I have had success and thank you because some things do make more sense now, I do regret making a mess of those exceedingly few times where I had an opportunity with someone I really did like.


Perfection doesn't really exist but I define perfection as when I connect with someone, which is very rare. If I look back its probably only happened three times.


When it comes to positive spins I do try put that into most things and most of the time I try make something not so nice into something humorous.


Somewhere something went wrong because I don't really believe I can get the people I like to go out with me, truthfully I look at who they hang around with me and I am not that sort of guy so its senseless to even try, I can go and sit at a bar and pretend to be ok on my own but that's hardly going to send out any positive vibes.


Perhaps its sad to say and admit but I don't really believe it can get anyone I like to like me. Nothing I have experienced has ever suggested otherwise and this just makes me sad so I tend to try and get non dating things which I think I can get.
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Old 10th February 2018, 3:25 PM   #50
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I personally don't doubt that you are a kind well-mannered guy whether you like the girl or not, ZA. In any case, that is great that you are.

The things that (we suspect) you are not doing on your dates (to quite their disappointment)--connecting emotionally with them, coming across diffident/not masculine, not LEADING the interaction in a more romantic direction, have already been covered in your threads already. I also suspect that there is something else going on.

Tinder tends to be a pretty tough environment, as many dating apps are. It really is about initial attraction. I suspect that you actually are a good-looking guy in your photos, and so when women off Tinder come out to meet you, they are disappointed that you aren't as confident as they imagined. In a way, a more average-looking guy may have it easier, in that he may be cut more slack as the woman has lower expectations coming in.

My point of all this is that you and Tinder just seem to be a bad match in general.

Have you considered a match-making service. They do require money to sign up but it sounds that you make a decent living so you can quite afford it. You will be screened to your dates and your dates will be screened to you, so the likelihood of the date being a successful one is much higher.

ETA: To answer your question, likely no you still won't get approached, it is on us as men to do the approaching. However, women will be more open to you approaching though.


The answer to the bold is simply because I don't know how to, there is no confidence at all or mostly there is no want to either because I don't like the person enough.


I have only had perhaps a handful of Tinder dates and of that perhaps two were what I would deem attractive to me.


A few years ago I did try a match making service, unfortunately what those seem to attract here are ladies looking for put up in luxury and looked after which is very off putting and honestly not for me. Make no mistake it is very tough here, I know someone who is way above average look wise and she battled to date, sure she had dates which I guess puts her one up on me but took her ages to find a bf.


A lot about me is not ideal from a dating point of view, primarily because I am so used to being on my own I sort of just go about my own business and that's that. When I was out today I tried to make eye contact with as many people as I could, look around and try some of Gemma's advice.


I even tried some of the body language stuff, unconsciously a lot of it was doing already. But as I say I don't really have much belief and I don't really know who is going to make me believe I can actually be with someone I want.
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Old 11th February 2018, 5:02 AM   #51
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The question I have is this, if my body language is good enough and I look good enough, would I get approached?
You would garner more interest but probably not get approached. As you already know from reading others posts here it's pretty much always still a man's job to approach.

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Its easy not to be too lonely, just do more work!
Yes.

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Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
I think you have missed some of the point, I am always kind and well mannered even if the person sitting across from me isn't my cup of tea.
No, I didn't miss the point at all. You become dismissive and this will show ALL OVER your face. You are not looking at your own face so cannot see it but it comes over to the other person as most likely contempt or anger -it can be the briefest flicker of either of those emotions shown and then the follow up to confirm will be more flickers of those expressions and eyes beginning to look elsewhere along with a whole other set of possibilities, movements involving the hands, a shoulder, arms, seated position. It all adds up.
All are limbic movements which you can control. I know this stuff for a fact as I observe this stuff and use it myself every moment of the day when I am in company anywhere.
You have to remember also that women, as girls are brought up to be nice to people - the way we learn is by reading body language and facial expressions.
You say you like to not agree always with a date and if during a date she says something you don't agree with and you 'drop a facial expression' over something she will see' game over' written all over you. The women you did like for whom it never went to a second date will have seen this.
The art of debate, healthy debate about subjects people disagree on is not to drop that face. What it conveys is respect towards that person's opinion and a willingness to talk it out and likely agree to disagree or even reach some points of agreement.

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I have been reading a bit about body language, there are a few basic things that one can do but I suspect my problem lies also with my inability to relate to people and vice versa.
'Reading a bit' is not enough.
The reason I have been suggesting this over and over and over to you is to fast track your learning of the subject of learning and reading facial expressions and learning and using body language and facial expressions in your favour.

There is far too much in intricacies for me to explain it all to you myself.
learning it though will help you in terms of relating to people, getting people to like you a lot faster, learning whether to approach someone and learning when not to and will help with knowing what to do to create sexual tension too.

I've suggested to you a long old time ago a TV show to watch called Lie To Me with an English lead actor Tim Roth which is all about Paul Ekman's work on micro-expressions - those flickered expressions. You can google him but watching the show explains it in action.
I also, a long time ago recommended to you a book called Love Signals by David Givens.
This show and this book would be good places to start.
I also suggested back in November/December the use of a mirror so that you can see your resting face (not in public) - did you get yourself a little pocket mirror?
If all you are doing is typing 'body language' into google you're going to find a whole load of stuff written by people who aren't experts - it's next to useless.

You have continually said you can't read people and that people don't like you upon meeting you so I will re-iterate - I am trying to give you a fast track way to learn this stuff. This is stuff all of us who started to meet people and date in our teens and twenties have learned bits and pieces of organically along the way. You could take the opportunity to learn this stuff properly and quickly and practice, practice, practice.
We are all still practising this stuff all the time in every interaction we have.

On a side note, you would see no one in relationships in your area if the pickings of people are as terrible as you say.
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Old 11th February 2018, 6:48 AM   #52
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You would garner more interest but probably not get approached. As you already know from reading others posts here it's pretty much always still a man's job to approach.


Yes.


No, I didn't miss the point at all. You become dismissive and this will show ALL OVER your face. You are not looking at your own face so cannot see it but it comes over to the other person as most likely contempt or anger -it can be the briefest flicker of either of those emotions shown and then the follow up to confirm will be more flickers of those expressions and eyes beginning to look elsewhere along with a whole other set of possibilities, movements involving the hands, a shoulder, arms, seated position. It all adds up.
All are limbic movements which you can control. I know this stuff for a fact as I observe this stuff and use it myself every moment of the day when I am in company anywhere.
You have to remember also that women, as girls are brought up to be nice to people - the way we learn is by reading body language and facial expressions.
You say you like to not agree always with a date and if during a date she says something you don't agree with and you 'drop a facial expression' over something she will see' game over' written all over you. The women you did like for whom it never went to a second date will have seen this.
The art of debate, healthy debate about subjects people disagree on is not to drop that face. What it conveys is respect towards that person's opinion and a willingness to talk it out and likely agree to disagree or even reach some points of agreement.


'Reading a bit' is not enough.
The reason I have been suggesting this over and over and over to you is to fast track your learning of the subject of learning and reading facial expressions and learning and using body language and facial expressions in your favour.

There is far too much in intricacies for me to explain it all to you myself.
learning it though will help you in terms of relating to people, getting people to like you a lot faster, learning whether to approach someone and learning when not to and will help with knowing what to do to create sexual tension too.

I've suggested to you a long old time ago a TV show to watch called Lie To Me with an English lead actor Tim Roth which is all about Paul Ekman's work on micro-expressions - those flickered expressions. You can google him but watching the show explains it in action.
I also, a long time ago recommended to you a book called Love Signals by David Givens.
This show and this book would be good places to start.
I also suggested back in November/December the use of a mirror so that you can see your resting face (not in public) - did you get yourself a little pocket mirror?
If all you are doing is typing 'body language' into google you're going to find a whole load of stuff written by people who aren't experts - it's next to useless.

You have continually said you can't read people and that people don't like you upon meeting you so I will re-iterate - I am trying to give you a fast track way to learn this stuff. This is stuff all of us who started to meet people and date in our teens and twenties have learned bits and pieces of organically along the way. You could take the opportunity to learn this stuff properly and quickly and practice, practice, practice.
We are all still practising this stuff all the time in every interaction we have.

On a side note, you would see no one in relationships in your area if the pickings of people are as terrible as you say.


So this morning I had the perfect opportunity to try some of this out, its a friend so she is never going to be into me so I have nothing to loose. She didn't want to stay for breakfast, I simply order told her she was going to, she smiled at me and ordered. "You are staying for breakfast, the question are you ordering it or am I" I think I used something along those lines.


Sure, there is a lot to read about body language, keeping a softer expression, smiling a bit, generally showing oneself to be loose as apposed to being uptight. Again I tried some of that, on top of being more assertive. The kicker is I know her well so I know she isn't going to run for the hills and I could try some of this without "well I hope I don't mess it up".


What I did do, another friend of mine brought up her bf and usually I am quite indifferent to this, for some reason this time it did get to me and probably for once I didn't usually give the non emotive response I normally did, I surprised myself with that to be honest. Oh Gemma, I accomplished this was a facial expression. What was surprising was she didn't have much good to say about him after that.


Granted I think perhaps there might be something to body language but that assumes I find anyone who interests me in the first place.
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Old 11th February 2018, 7:28 AM   #53
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And nothing you did was too uncomfortable nor completely out of character was it?
It felt good didn't it?!!

Thing is too that I know you are not ugly, you get picked out by people on tinder which is just photos so you are not ugly and not unattractive.

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Granted I think perhaps there might be something to body language but that assumes I find anyone who interests me in the first place.
This bit in bold - hold your horses, read up, do that research - seriously.
Because when you can read someone much better you can often see things in them which are not apparent from a first look or a first meet.
It's 'possible potential' that you can learn to see. You will get to a point where you see it but have some patience to give yourself time to learn this stuff and try it out like you just have started to do.
You won't ever be able to totally read everyone and not everyone will like you or vice versa but you will have a lot more control over a situation the more you can read it, read them and adjust things about yourself accordingly just like you did today.

The reason I have kept on at you and kept nagging about this body language subject is because I know you have potential.
And yes, there is something in it - all this body language stuff!
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Old 12th February 2018, 4:05 AM   #54
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And nothing you did was too uncomfortable nor completely out of character was it?
It felt good didn't it?!!

Thing is too that I know you are not ugly, you get picked out by people on tinder which is just photos so you are not ugly and not unattractive.


This bit in bold - hold your horses, read up, do that research - seriously.
Because when you can read someone much better you can often see things in them which are not apparent from a first look or a first meet.
It's 'possible potential' that you can learn to see. You will get to a point where you see it but have some patience to give yourself time to learn this stuff and try it out like you just have started to do.
You won't ever be able to totally read everyone and not everyone will like you or vice versa but you will have a lot more control over a situation the more you can read it, read them and adjust things about yourself accordingly just like you did today.

The reason I have kept on at you and kept nagging about this body language subject is because I know you have potential.
And yes, there is something in it - all this body language stuff!


I think in some respects you could use body language as a tool, perhaps subtle manipulation. My problem is being too shy and too measured in the way I do things, I can be very assertive but being nice comes more easily than being assertive.


I am going to try doing more of the latter and see what happens. One unfortunate thing did happen yesterday is I inadvertently put my hand of cards down on the table with someone so my "game" is know well known, not that it ever was much of a secret to begin with.


That aside you mention potential which is very nice, thank you. Perhaps what I don't mention is its never the photogenic people picking me out on Tinder.... I am slim, tall, athletic and its always the opposite of that which finds me attractive.


What was one of the benefits of trying things yesterday was to see different reactions. Admittedly the unknowing test case is someone I know well but also someone completely unavailable so I could just try anything.
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Old 13th February 2018, 1:30 AM   #55
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The reason I have kept on at you and kept nagging about this body language subject is because I know you have potential.
And yes, there is something in it - all this body language stuff!


Do you think you could win someone over with body language?


Just take this from whence it comes, someone who is feeling particularly miserable at the moment as the loneliest day of the year beckons.


Is it worth simply trying anything vaguely friendly in terms of body language, sure winking is probably too overt and suggestive.


At the moment I am resisting going back to "oh take anyone out who will go out with me" Your comment about a goal was a good one and I think about that often but do you think I am being realistic? Should I be going out with people who show some sort of interest in me?


Here is the thing, most people don't ever show any interest and this applies to online and in person so I just feel this monumental pressure to try and make them show interest or woo them and of late I am just not seeing the point in doing this, should I be doing this?


Each time its like me trying to squeeze water from a rock and sure I know I need to be assertive which is find but a case in point, talking to someone on Tinder, day 3 so far and I don't find myself wanting a date, I steered the direction that way but she was non committal and I don't really know if I find her attractive, the thing is she seems the best of a less than attractive bunch.


What should my goal here be?


You say I don't volunteer information but I am going to do that now, ever since I was in HS I always had this ideal, for most guys that's an ideal look for me it was simply that intelligent, rounded person someone to give me a challenge and I have found those people but very seldom, for me its attractive for someone to get into a big debate with me and hold their ground, make me think a bit. I don't know everything, nobody does but the thing is with this its so so hard to find these people.


I suppose the other flip side of it is its incredibly easy for me to flip into the negative which I try not to do but when I look around me, especially on 14 Feb each year I just feel very negative about the whole thing.


Last Sat night I went out and tried to carry myself a different way, look around, keep a softer overall look but all the time my mind works, I see someone pretty but dismiss them as taken (which is probably true 99.9% of the time), its very easy for me to rationalise all of this, find some justification for it but deep down I know I crave that interaction. However, the issue there is I don't often get that stimulating interaction or any sort of interest.


I basically walk through life alone, nobody really actually asks me anything about me, I ask about them but few ask about me.


Then there is my preference for trying to accomplish the near impossible, the harder the challenge the more attractive it is to me, which again is probably why whether someone is taken or not is irrelevant in my mind, to me most people are taken, at least all the ones I would want to be with. So what ends up happening is I chase metaphorical ghosts, situations where I morally shouldn't be chasing at all. It was the same with the co worker I chased for 3 years, I still think about her and last week I thought about getting in contact again. I didn't but I thought about it.


Compliments, I be sure to compliment people but I can count how many times I have been complimented. Surely those scales are incorrectly balanced?


Perhaps in the back of my mind I always knew this whole dating thing would be very hard, from the first time I was rejected in front of a crowd of people to the valentines day gifts for which I never even so much as got a thank you for, to virtually every horrid dating experience. The best experienced have usually been with people who I deem to be virtually unattainable because they aren't single.
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Old 13th February 2018, 3:00 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
I think in some respects you could use body language as a tool, perhaps subtle manipulation. My problem is being too shy and too measured in the way I do things, I can be very assertive but being nice comes more easily than being assertive.


I am going to try doing more of the latter and see what happens. One unfortunate thing did happen yesterday is I inadvertently put my hand of cards down on the table with someone so my "game" is know well known, not that it ever was much of a secret to begin with.


That aside you mention potential which is very nice, thank you. Perhaps what I don't mention is its never the photogenic people picking me out on Tinder.... I am slim, tall, athletic and its always the opposite of that which finds me attractive.


What was one of the benefits of trying things yesterday was to see different reactions. Admittedly the unknowing test case is someone I know well but also someone completely unavailable so I could just try anything.
You're missing the point of body language.
It's not some deceitful manipulation tactic, it can be used that way if the end point is to con people out of their cash but I'm talking everyday life body language. The type you have a little knowledge of and tried out. You saw a different reaction, you interacted much more socially than you normally would.
The point also is not to only read the body language of nor employ approachable body language with those you might want to date - it's to use with anyone, anywhere as I and many others have said all along.

Learning about it, reading about it and practising it is meant to be a fast track to becoming more social all round with others so that you get plenty of practice and it becomes part of who you are.
Changing one thing right now without any knowledge is not going to suddenly get you a date or a relationship. It's going to take time to get there even though this is a fast track way to learn. But as you have already seen, small changes made can absolutely incur an instantly better reaction from people.

Body language (or non verbal communication) accounts for the majority of human interactions. See the link.
Body Language Classes, Research, and Consulting | Nonverbal Group | NYC

You need to get doing some research on it, understanding what's behind it.
I cannot explain it all to you on a forum even though I have studied the subject. Without you doing the groundwork for yourself though there is no way I or others on here can help because you won't have learned how to read others which is something you say you cannot do at all just now.

You have however seen two 100& positive reactions from using body language in your favour so far. Knowing you that should be enough to spur you on to do the groundwork and learn about the subject.
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Old 13th February 2018, 5:25 AM   #57
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ZA Dater, I was reading another post in another forum. It's much easier to attract woman of beauty through cold approach than online if you're a regular guy. I think that you hit your ceiling through online dating. Part of the reason your first dates are flat is because you're not wildly attracted to the women you meet through online dating. You're meeting plain janes instead of the photogenic women. The plain janes can you see that you're not excited because you are not leading so they respond by ghosting out after the first dates. I notice a difference in the type of women I date online versus outside the Internet.A moderator in that same forum who is better looking than me also noticed a difference in the quality in women that he met through online dating versus the women he meets outside of the Internet. Women who are just above-average in looks like Selena Gomez or Milana Vayntrub are impossible to attract online because they are flooded with messages. However, outside the Internet, they will give you a chance if you have style and a confident, social vibe.

Regarding trying to get women to approach you, I got more success by improving my style instead of my body language. If you dress edgy women will compliment you or you will hear them talk positively about you.

Regarding another issue, I think you should consider going to a psychologist. You said that you have problems showing emotions or reading people. That's a big warning that you need to ask a psychologist to test you for certain things. I don't want to name the disorder because it's a big no-no to diagnose people. It's just that you seem really rigid and you have problems with emotions. You also seem to dwell on irrelevant things like not drinking or the unfairness of dating when there are bigger issues like your vibe and people skills.

Another big issue I see is that you have a hard time learning from your mistakes. Instead of realizing that women are turned off by boring, interview dates, you keep on doing the same thing over and over. You also don't put a lot of time practicing your communications skills and vibe when you're not out on a date.
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Old 14th February 2018, 3:22 AM   #58
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ZA Dater, I was reading another post in another forum. It's much easier to attract woman of beauty through cold approach than online if you're a regular guy. I think that you hit your ceiling through online dating. Part of the reason your first dates are flat is because you're not wildly attracted to the women you meet through online dating. You're meeting plain janes instead of the photogenic women. The plain janes can you see that you're not excited because you are not leading so they respond by ghosting out after the first dates. I notice a difference in the type of women I date online versus outside the Internet.A moderator in that same forum who is better looking than me also noticed a difference in the quality in women that he met through online dating versus the women he meets outside of the Internet. Women who are just above-average in looks like Selena Gomez or Milana Vayntrub are impossible to attract online because they are flooded with messages. However, outside the Internet, they will give you a chance if you have style and a confident, social vibe.

Regarding trying to get women to approach you, I got more success by improving my style instead of my body language. If you dress edgy women will compliment you or you will hear them talk positively about you.

Regarding another issue, I think you should consider going to a psychologist. You said that you have problems showing emotions or reading people. That's a big warning that you need to ask a psychologist to test you for certain things. I don't want to name the disorder because it's a big no-no to diagnose people. It's just that you seem really rigid and you have problems with emotions. You also seem to dwell on irrelevant things like not drinking or the unfairness of dating when there are bigger issues like your vibe and people skills.

Another big issue I see is that you have a hard time learning from your mistakes. Instead of realizing that women are turned off by boring, interview dates, you keep on doing the same thing over and over. You also don't put a lot of time practicing your communications skills and vibe when you're not out on a date.


1:I would love to know how you accomplish this?
2:Very true with the proviso I can put up with average looks for far above average intellect and just being interesting and able to talk.
3:I had a make over and most say I dress well know but it doesn't seem to help much, as for confidence, you try being nearly 34 with gf and constant rejections, I'd have better odds finding oil in my backyard.
4: I put time into things I enjoy and time into things where there is some tangible reward for that time, spending time walking around trying to cold approach people doesn't really interest me at all versus spending time working on something that has some benefit for me, or where the odds of benefit are better. I'll try body language with no real expectation of success, purely because what I like and what I can get might as well be on different planets.


I think success for me would be having someone nice interested in me and not me having to grovel to make them interested in me, I am just disinterested in doing that.


Lessons, I have learnt many but most of which are around my over compromising trying to find people attractive I don't find attractive and the other being putting effort into people I have no real chance with, which basically leaves me nowhere.


I think as time goes on and I have less and less success and find fewer and fewer people who interest me dating goes from "I want this" to "nice to have but I want material items more", or "nice to have I'd prefer a hook up to get some experience" which is basically where I am now.


My grand plan always was to try make myself desirable but the enormous challenge this presented was something I underestimated, for years I thought being a good person counted for something but the more time I spend trying to find people the more I realise it actually counts for nothing at all. What I found really is I the polar opposite to what people seem to want.


I am all game for playing around with body language, at least I might retain some interest in doing something challenging even if there are no results to speak of.


As for drinking, two day old interaction.


Me: do you like dinner dates, coffee dates, activity dates
Her: I like drinking so definitely dinner dates
Me: That's great but I don't drink
Her: Why is that
Me: Because I am training for a cycle race and while I have drank before I didn't enjoy it.


Conversation died shortly afterwards.


As I say its 14 Feb and everyone is getting gifts, everyone has gf's and wives around me and I sit here. Such is life.
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Old 14th February 2018, 3:32 AM   #59
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You have however seen two 100& positive reactions from using body language in your favour so far. Knowing you that should be enough to spur you on to do the groundwork and learn about the subject.


Does it count as positive if the person isn't single haha.
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Old 14th February 2018, 9:51 AM   #60
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Just really venting here.


So I tried something else today, purely because I just feel extremely lonely and hopeless today.


Went to a meeting with a friend of mine, he has no issue getting dates, the next more beautiful than the last, every single one of them is gorgeous.


He says to me "we need to get you laid" "you know the best girls aren't always the best looking".


Usually I would have let this go and changed the subject.


My comment was "yes easy to say for someone who always dates gorgeous people", quick back track on his side and I then changed the subject.


He had no Valentines date, finds one within 10 minutes.


Tried some body language at a yoga studio (was there for a meeting) and again he just has all this charm and charisma, I just feel all awkward and its just easier for me to leap into e mail and arrange the next meeting. I tried eye contact with 3 of the reception ladies but they were only interested in him.


I will desperately try read as much about body language as I can and try adapt but standing there I thought to myself "I have nothing to add here, all of you are stunning and your pick list is much better than me" and so it proved because all had dates.


This friend simply cannot relate to someone who battles, its so easy for him but I get "I get rejected too", I have known him years and that that's hardly ever the case.
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