Do you think putting a girl on a pedestal is the main problem guys have?

[R3d]

I think I am having an epiphany for why I have been having such a hard time with girls in the past few months. I think it's all because of me putting them on a pedestal. Because by putting her on a pedestal, you:

 

1. Raising her value which in turn lowers your value, which in turn lowers your confidence.

2. Look needy/desperate.

3. Start "auditioning" for her rather than just being yourself (basically trying too hard).

4. Think of her, not as a person, but a trophy to be won.

 

See if you don't put her on a pedestal, you:

 

1. Realize that she's no better than you are, which keeps your confidence intact.

2. Understand that you don't need her.

3. Stop worrying about pleasing her or getting her to "accept you", so you just be yourself and if she doesn't like you for who you are, she can go **** herself, to put it bluntly.

4. Realize that she's a person just like you are.

 

Think about it. When you're with your friends, you don't hesitate to sometimes say things that they don't exactly agree with. You also don't worry about what to say next and just speak your mind. You call them out on their **** and aren't afraid to put them in their place sometimes. I mean, you don't treat them like crap, but this is all because you DON'T put them on a pedestal and worship them and ask for their approval.

 

That's really how talking to girls should be ideally, of course with some flirting laced in so you don't get friendzoned.

 

I think that's what initially attracts a lot of girls to these so-called "jerks", because they are not trying so hard for women's approval. I am not saying being a jerk is the way to go; I just think that putting her on a pedestal because she's "hot" (to him - because remember, attraction is subjective) might be the core problem I have been having when talking to girls, as well as other "nice" guys' in my situation.

These are just my thoughts and hypotheses of course and if you have any criticism, I'd like to hear.

 

Jad T Jones' brief explanation of what this behavior looks like and why it's detrimental:

 

PS: I heard this phrase a lot before. "Don't put the pussy on the pedestal," to put it bluntly. However, I never really took the time to actually analyze this and understand how this will change my perception, until today...

 

See, in addition to the whole looking nervous, needy/desperate and like a tryhard, I also think this is where the not knowing what to say and being afraid to say the wrong thing stems from too. I was thinking of her as this goddess whom in front I must say all the right things. However, if I just think of her as another person like you or me, I don't really feel like I would have to say all the right things and I wouldn't feel like not knowing what to say is so much of an issue anymore. Because why should I? It's not my job to appease her. Like I said, if she isn't pleased by who I am or what I say, she can withdraw herself from talking to me. I feel like that's a better mentality to have as it not only solves a lot of problems but exudes a lot of confidence.

[topaMAXX]

It's funny. I was just going through my old messages on Facebook from many years ago.

 

It brought back in mind many girls that I dated (or tried to date).

 

Basically, any girl that I ever really wanted to date that I ultimately failed with was due to me putting her on a pedestal. Basically, any girl that I acted like a "nice guy" around.

 

The girls that I didn't value that much (no matter how hot they were) ended up dating me.

 

It's a common theme from my experience. So, for me, yes I absolutely agree with the original post.

[bryceisbryce]

I was actually going to create a post similar to this one. Yours is much more tactful because I was about to call dudes out for being beta wusses. This is why there are so many whiny guys on here complaining about women not respecting them. Because they are pushovers, tryhards, and scared of rejection.

 

Instead of going after girls they can get, they go after women that are unobtainable(for them) and then complain about it. If hot women don't want you for who you are then IMPROVE YOURSELF or date women that do like you for who you are. Complaining about not being able to get what you want in a woman without making any effort to improve yourself is like complaining about not being able to afford a Ferrari with a minimum wage job.

[WeirdChick]

I think if you can't be yourself around a girl then she is not right for you.

 

I think the main problem is that you might be putting any hot girl on a pedstal in the vain hope to get her attention, then she might treat you with disrecpect.

 

I think normally one should treat all fellow beings hot girl or not with respect.

 

I'd suggest date only girls that you really really like. So that you dont mind putting her on a pedestal, and the right kind of girl will appreciate your attention and care and respond in same way. Always keep in mind that when you meet the "right girl" for you, she will make you feel special und you will probably then make her feel very speacial.

[preraph]

I definitely don't think most guys put women on a pedestal. I think they mainly don't respect them enough as people. You may well be putting them on a pedestal though.

 

I think the main problem guys make is setting their sites on women who have the best bodies and then imagining that because they're attracted to them, this probably means 1) they are the ideal girl they keep in their head 2) they should be able to get them even if they don't match those standards themselves.

[hasaquestion]

I was actually going to create a post similar to this one. Yours is much more tactful because I was about to call dudes out for being beta wusses. This is why there are so many whiny guys on here complaining about women not respecting them. Because they are pushovers, tryhards, and scared of rejection.

 

Instead of going after girls they can get, they go after women that are unobtainable(for them) and then complain about it. If hot women don't want you for who you are then IMPROVE YOURSELF or date women that do like you for who you are. Complaining about not being able to get what you want in a woman without making any effort to improve yourself is like complaining about not being able to afford a Ferrari with a minimum wage job.

 

YES.

 

OP, look at it this way.

 

Tryhards, pushovers, "nice guys" (who are usually stuck up about sex and have ulterior motives anyway), etc. try to "win" a girl, try to find some magical combination of words and date ideas and conversational topics that will make her want to be with him. Try to "convince" her to be with them when she wouldn't be otherwise. That is putting the pussy on a pedestal. And it never works.

 

She should WANT to be with you. If you're trying to sell it then its doomed from the get-go.

[Michelle ma Belle]

Sorry, this sounds like a lot of BS. I also think this is some very immature thinking. How old are you OP?

 

If you're having issues with the women you date, I hardly doubt it's because you're TOO nice or revere them TOO much. Give me a break.

 

What you're saying sounds like a lot of game playing not to mention passive aggressive behavior.

 

Is that really how you want to start a relationship?

[hasaquestion]

Sorry, this sounds like a lot of BS. I also think this is some very immature thinking. How old are you OP?

 

If you're having issues with the women you date, I hardly doubt it's because you're TOO nice or revere them TOO much. Give me a break.

 

What you're saying sounds like a lot of game playing not to mention passive aggressive behavior.

 

Is that really how you want to start a relationship?

 

Eh. Its fairly accurate. If you're putting women on a pedestal, it means you feel you have less to offer them than they feel they have to offer you. That needs to change.

 

So you need to lower your standards, or step your game up by increasing your worth. And worth is partly psychological, so obviously there's inevitably some "game playing" involved. Its really not a big deal. Everyone OP's age does it.

 

The worst thing you can do for the try hard "nice guy" types is enable them to keep being try hard "nice guys" by telling them not to do things that actually work.

[R3d]

Sorry, this sounds like a lot of BS. I also think this is some very immature thinking. How old are you OP?

 

If you're having issues with the women you date, I hardly doubt it's because you're TOO nice or revere them TOO much. Give me a break.

 

What you're saying sounds like a lot of game playing not to mention passive aggressive behavior.

 

Is that really how you want to start a relationship?

 

Being yourself and speaking your mind (tere are a few boundaries to this of course) without worrying about what she thinks and treating a woman like she's a person and not a goddess no matter how attractive you think she is, is game-playing and passive aggressive? Like I mentioned, I don't say to be a jerk, but just treat her like you would your friends (with a little flirtation).

 

I haven't been able to get a date yet (at 16) and I am entertaining the reason is because I have been holding the girls I have talked to in too high of a regard which made me come off as a tryhard and needy - worrying too much about what to say and do because I NEED her to like me: not being myself and in turn lacking confidence. When in reality, I don't and I shouldn't.

 

But you may have a point. What exactly do you disagree with?

[hasaquestion]

Being yourself and speaking your mind (tere are a few boundaries to this of course) without worrying about what she thinks and treating a woman like she's a person and not a goddess no matter how attractive you think she is, is game-playing and passive aggressive? Like I mentioned, I don't say to be a jerk, but just treat her like you would your friends (with a little flirtation).

 

I haven't been able to get a date yet (at 16) and I am entertaining the reason is because I have been holding the girls I have talked to in too high of a regard which made me come off as a tryhard and needy - worrying too much about what to say and do because I NEED her to like me: not being myself and in turn lacking confidence. When in reality, I don't and I shouldn't.

 

But you may have a point. What exactly do you disagree with?

 

16? Listen up buddy.

 

First of all, if you don't play any sports, you need to get your tail in the gym. What does your body type look like?

 

Second of all, you need to NOT worry about getting a gf. A fulfilling personal/sex life is not a goal in itself its a byproduct of having value to others. Understanding that and establishing that value will go far for you. Not just personally but professionally, where corporations and employers judge you based on the value you bring.

 

Feel free to PM me if you prefer that.

[GoodOnPaper]

If you're having issues with the women you date, I hardly doubt it's because you're TOO nice or revere them TOO much. Give me a break.

 

What you're saying sounds like a lot of game playing not to mention passive aggressive behavior.

 

Is that really how you want to start a relationship?

 

What's frustrating is that the attraction phase is full of counterintuitive and paradoxical things that make no sense in the context of a relationship. But you have to somehow get through that attraction phase to get to the relationship.

 

Speaking of paradox, two of the most common types of advice are polar opposites:

 

Instead of going after girls they can get, they go after women that are unobtainable(for them) and then complain about it.

 

I'd suggest date only girls that you really really like. So that you dont mind putting her on a pedestal, and the right kind of girl will appreciate your attention and care and respond in same way. Always keep in mind that when you meet the "right girl" for you, she will make you feel special und you will probably then make her feel very speacial.

 

If you go after women just because you think they are the best you can get, I don't see how you can summon the inspiration to fall in love or at least be overly infatuated enough to want to take things to the next level.

 

That said, I think any guy -- but especially those of us with a history of really struggling -- would benefit from learning how/why he is drawn to a woman beyond the first impression of her looks. A good pop psychology one-liner that I heard years ago is "date a woman because she is cool, not because she it hot."

[hasaquestion]

If you go after women just because you think they are the best you can get, I don't see how you can summon the inspiration to fall in love or at least be overly infatuated enough to want to take things to the next level.

 

OP is a kid still. "Taking things to the next level" is probably the last thing on his mind, and if it isn't it shoudl be. Experience is valuable, nothing wrong with a 2 month test drive. The real way to get nowhere is to be single and uninvolved for years waiting for lightning to strike.

[iris219]

If a woman really likes you and is attracted to you, there's little you can do wrong.

 

If she doesn't like you, putting her on pedestal will just really annoy her.

 

Personally, I don't date guys who don't think I'm special. I don't need a man to worship me, but he needs to make it clear that he thinks I'm awesome.

[Michelle ma Belle]

Being yourself and speaking your mind (tere are a few boundaries to this of course) without worrying about what she thinks and treating a woman like she's a person and not a goddess no matter how attractive you think she is, is game-playing and passive aggressive? Like I mentioned, I don't say to be a jerk, but just treat her like you would your friends (with a little flirtation).

 

I haven't been able to get a date yet (at 16) and I am entertaining the reason is because I have been holding the girls I have talked to in too high of a regard which made me come off as a tryhard and needy - worrying too much about what to say and do because I NEED her to like me: not being myself and in turn lacking confidence. When in reality, I don't and I shouldn't.

 

But you may have a point. What exactly do you disagree with?

 

Ah, this explains everything now.

 

Listen, I both respect and admire your courage to join this site and participate in candid discussions about relationship as well as your desire to seek out good advice. This is a great place for that so kudos. In fact, having a 15 year old son myself, I wish more young men did this. I think it's important for all teenagers but especially boys to talk about what they're going through and be open to learning ways that will help them grown into being better men.

 

It's hard to comment much more on your thread since the perspective you're giving is that of someone so young. That's exactly what I suspected when I read it.

 

On som level I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from but then again, if your posting is being directed at 16 year old girls, they aren't exactly known for having their sh*t together or for being good at navigating relationships

 

I think the best advice is being true to yourself and NOT paint all girls/women with the same paint brush because we're not all the same after all. You will have a lifetime of happiness and fulfilling moments but also heartbreak and frustrations. That's just part of the dance between men and women.

 

Good luck.

[GoodOnPaper]

OP is a kid still. "Taking things to the next level" is probably the last thing on his mind, and if it isn't it shoudl be. Experience is valuable, nothing wrong with a 2 month test drive. The real way to get nowhere is to be single and uninvolved for years waiting for lightning to strike.

 

I didn't see his age until after I posted. That changes a lot of things. I have another one-line suggestion that I think is far important, when it comes to girls, "Everything Is Practice".

[Potz4prez]

OP is a kid still. "Taking things to the next level" is probably the last thing on his mind, and if it isn't it shoudl be. Experience is valuable, nothing wrong with a 2 month test drive. The real way to get nowhere is to be single and uninvolved for years waiting for lightning to strike.

 

Ha, ain't that the truth. Made that mistake. Took me until this past year (24) to figure **** out.

 

 

From personal experience, I think the problems most "pedestal" guys make is trying to win over a girl before even asking her out... or trying to win over girls who clearly aren't interested. You know who's really nice and doesn't ask her out? Her friends.

 

They get stuck in the infatuation phase because they're afraid of rejection... hell, they're afraid of her saying yes. What would a dog do with a car if he actually caught it? They spend all day dreaming about this girl until she becomes idealized. Actually dating her would make her real.

 

Guys like that need to a) just man up and start asking girls out for the hell of it, and/or b) seek therapy.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Potz4prez

[KathyM]

I think when there are discrepancies in what a person brings to the table, that is when a person tends to put the other on a pedestal, be it man or woman. The person who has less to offer puts the one who has more to offer on a pedestal, and that makes for an insecure relationship. That is when you find the dynamic where one is not appreciated enough, or one feels insecure, and one is more prone to looking for a "replacement".

 

I've seen this play out IRL with several people I know. The highly educated man who marries a woman with only a high school diploma, who then goes on to be attracted to women who are his intellectual equal and then dumps his wife for the woman who is more of a match. Or the "hot" woman or man who date or marry someone who is an average looking guy/gal, causing the more attractive one to not value their partner enough or treat them well enough, and the average guy/gal feels insecure about the relationship. I've seen that play out many times IRL, where the more attractive person uses the Average Joe/Plain Jane as a placeholder until someone "better" comes along, and then the Average Joe gets his heart broken.

 

My point being that, when people are compatible and bring similar qualities to the table, or have different but equally valuable qualities, that is when the power dynamic in a relationship is an even one and you don't get that idealizing or devaluing dynamic when one is put on a pedestal and one is not appreciated enough. Most people are not fooled into thinking that you bring more to the table than what you do, unless you are outright lying to them, which will be discovered soon enough. It's when there is a discrepancy in what each partner brings to the table that creates the dynamic of idealizing the one who has more to offer and creates the power imbalance.

 

 

I don't remember reading if the OP is of Indian descent, but if so, if you are idealizing white skin and devaluing your own ethnicity, then you will create this power imbalance because you don't see yourself as an equal, and you are elevating her to a higher status because of skin color.

Edited May 16, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[littleplanet]

Well - you are definitely on the right track, OP.

(But I don't like the phrase "Don't put the [body part] on a pedestal")

That just kind of defeats the whole thing, you know?

 

But seriously - does someone happen to be a finer human being just because of the gender they happen to be?

What you described.....used to be referred to as chauvinism. It went out of date when I was a kid. Don't quite know how it slipped back into style. But it's just as silly now, as it was back then.

 

Of course. Be yourself. The play's over. The camera stopped rolling. The movie isn't screening. You don't have to act anymore. Genuine responses get genuine results. The rest.....is fiction.

 

Um.....I was exactly your age when I figured all this out. And the results were terrific!

It resulted in a magnificently wonderful relationship that lasted two years. It was all good, all real - and pointed me in the right direction.

It took me from zero confidence/experience......to a clear heart, a clean head, and a healthy romantic attitude.

 

Big one: respect

Just as big: truth

 

Those two things......will take you far, chum.

Your greatest ally in all of this? Your conscience.

Yep - that little Jiminy Cricket is your friend.

Good luck!

[R3d]

Ah, this explains everything now.

 

Listen, I both respect and admire your courage to join this site and participate in candid discussions about relationship as well as your desire to seek out good advice. This is a great place for that so kudos. In fact, having a 15 year old son myself, I wish more young men did this. I think it's important for all teenagers but especially boys to talk about what they're going through and be open to learning ways that will help them grown into being better men.

 

It's hard to comment much more on your thread since the perspective you're giving is that of someone so young. That's exactly what I suspected when I read it.

 

On som level I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from but then again, if your posting is being directed at 16 year old girls, they aren't exactly known for having their sh*t together or for being good at navigating relationships

 

I think the best advice is being true to yourself and NOT paint all girls/women with the same paint brush because we're not all the same after all. You will have a lifetime of happiness and fulfilling moments but also heartbreak and frustrations. That's just part of the dance between men and women.

 

Good luck.

 

I just don't know what exactly you are opposed to in my OP. If you could pick out some specific parts that you don't disagree with and critique them and explain why you disagree with them, maybe I could better understand your criticism.

 

And my posting was directed at just men in general, specifically the kind of guys who were like me getting all nervous, not knowing what to say, trying too hard.and being too careful. I feel like this is remedied by taking the girl off the pedestal and back on the same plane as you, because then you don't care as much and aren't afraid to just be yourself and speak your mind. I also feel this helps in overcoming fear of rejection and any feeling of submission (which also seems to be a turn-off to most girls because they want a dominant more powerful man, not a weaker one).

 

But I want to know because I am curious: exactly what do you criticize in what I say?

[littleplanet]

Ah, this explains everything now.

 

Listen, I both respect and admire your courage to join this site and participate in candid discussions about relationship as well as your desire to seek out good advice. This is a great place for that so kudos. In fact, having a 15 year old son myself, I wish more young men did this. I think it's important for all teenagers but especially boys to talk about what they're going through and be open to learning ways that will help them grown into being better men.

 

It's hard to comment much more on your thread since the perspective you're giving is that of someone so young. That's exactly what I suspected when I read it.

 

On som level I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from but then again, if your posting is being directed at 16 year old girls, they aren't exactly known for having their sh*t together or for being good at navigating relationships

 

I think the best advice is being true to yourself and NOT paint all girls/women with the same paint brush because we're not all the same after all. You will have a lifetime of happiness and fulfilling moments but also heartbreak and frustrations. That's just part of the dance between men and women.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Stands and applauds from the gallery. Well spoke!

 

Well, I raised a son myself - and he actually started a little younger than me....employing the same methods. There are all kinds of things that that age is too young for....but not everything.

Emotional growth can often enough get shoved aside - for sports, academics, video games and other "toys."

But emotional health doesn't pop out of a crackerjack box 'suddenly' at 21.

It can start a lot earlier than that.

Youthful 'floundering' is part of growing up. I happen to think it's an important part......not the whole enchilada.....just a little flavor in the mix.

 

I wonder sometimes, these days.....if too many adults don't talk down to kids.

Just as (in a real weird way) the 30's have somehow morphed into the 'new' twenties (what the hell is THAT all about?)

Now the teens have become the new.......what? 10's?

 

Sure. Sometimes you want to throw a little sand on that greased driveway to slow things down to Mach3 at least...........

but the alternative of the strong hand dragging that collar back - feels like a little too much denial of age-defined reality in the real world.

 

To his credit: The OP had the cajones to bother putting it out here - at grave risk of being dissed. Big points for that.

I heartily agree. Anything that helps boys grow into better men is on the agenda.

[R3d]

I don't remember reading if the OP is of Indian descent, but if so, if you are idealizing white skin and devaluing your own ethnicity, then you will create this power imbalance because you don't see yourself as an equal, and you are elevating her to a higher status because of skin color.

I am that guy. And this is part of it. It also seems to help me overcome my insecurities and my inferiority complex. That's another thing that I forgot to mention. Because when I stop putting her on a pedestal and see her as an equal, I don't feel inferior due to my stature or race, at least not nearly as much. I might still a little bit deep down, but much less than I was before. I feel a lot more self-accepting now.

 

That's also why I am preaching the whole, "Don't put her on a pedestal," thing. Because it has vastly changed my perception on things for the better in many different ways. This being one of them. The other ones are stated in my OP and other earlier posts. It just feels like a "quick fix" to all of the issues (again, stated in my OP and other posts) I have been having regarding interaction with the opposite sex.

 

And I am not disregarding self-improvement in this process either. That should always be done. You should still try to be the best you can.

 

But like I said in my earlier post and the OP, if you don't like what you hear or agree with something, I am open to criticism and I'd actually like to know what specifically you don't like. Like I said in my OP, for now, these are just my hypotheses, based on the differences (some of which are quite dramatic) in perception I feel just by simply taking my crushes off the pedestal (and like I said, I heard this phrase before, but never really analyzed it and carefully observe how it affects my perception on things until yesterday). I haven't actually "put it to the test" yet, so to speak. I also am aware that I am very young and you guys are a lot more experienced than me (which is why I did originally hesitate to post this here). I haven't even gone on a date yet, for heaven's sake, and some of you are already married! So I realize you probably see things that I don't. But that's what I am saying: enlighten me. Point them out.

 

And sorry, I tend to abuse parentheses (sometimes I even to do parenthetical phrases within a parenthetical phrase (like this)...and look, I am doing it again). Sorry if it made reading the post a little difficult.

 

ETA: I have also noticed that this board tends to believe in "leagues" more. The idea that someone is out of your league. That's sort of the belief that I am trying to "destroy" with this ideology I have introduced. Of course there are exceptions and extremes. You can't expect to attract a very attractive and successful guy or girl when you're a couch potato.

 

But one factor that led me to think this way was by watching this video:

(this video isn't actually about "how to attract hot girls" as they say in their description). They say in their video:

 

So how to attract hot girls? Treat everyone equally[...]BTW, this vid isn't really to attract "hot" girls. It's about attracting the girl that is best FOR YOU. Girls you "connect" and have the best chemistry with. etc.

I really suggest you check it out, because this is where a lot of the stuff I wrote is coming from. Edited May 17, 2014 by R3d