Me and female friend have long history

[someguytho]

Me and a girl hung out recently. We've been good friends for a long time and have a very weird history over the past decade. She used to have strong feelings for me in the past (she eventually admitted it to me) but was in a long term committed relationship at the time of the admission so nothing happened. She knows I used to like her when we first met, about a decade ago, but I guess she sort of figured that attraction faded (which it did, but came back). So we both had strong feelings for each other at different times and remain fairly close emotionally.

 

She finally became single this year and was casually dating guys but nothing serious, according to her. When we hung out the other day she had mentioned she was "seeing" one guy steadily now but did not make it seem like they were really committed yet, although she seemed interested in that.

 

Me and her got drunk in her room alone that night. I got much drunker than her and got pretty touchy feely with her. I laid my head in her lap and she didn't object. She eventually stretched out her leg and turned into me and basically, we ended up spooning on the floor. Our legs entwined, her butt was against my crotch (although she wasn't grinding, she definitely got into "spoon" mode) and I had my arm embracing her, feeling her arm or holding her hand. She was relaxed but also did not seem to care where my hands or mouth wandered...but she also did not give any positive signs either. She didn't grind into me, grab me, look at me, moan, tell me to keep going. When I breathed on her neck or rubbed my face up against it she didn't even move. Nothing.

 

We were BSing about random stuff while this was happening. I had my mouth on her neck, was breathing against it. I was looking for some type of positive or negative indicator. She knows me pretty well but we have never gotten this physical ever. I just sort of cozied up to her and I supposed she understood where I was going. I'm not some weird rapey dude so all she would have to do is pull or push away or say "Back off" and she knows I would have. But she didn't. She just laid there like a dead fish with her eyes closed and her face facing away from me.

 

I was getting pretty desperate for some sign either way. Either "no thanks" or "keep going" but I didn't want to make the mood awkward by asking. I didn't want to go so far as to grope her or kiss her until I got some kind of response for encouragement. I nuzzled her neck and I think even nibbled it a bit, I bit her shoulder playfully. Nothing. She just kept on talking about stuff matter of factly like we weren't doing anything. I eventually got so fed up I said "What's with you? Why are your eyes closed? Hm? Can I get some kind of reaction from you?" in a kind of playful tone and she just smiled with her eyes closed and she said she was tired. She would not turn to face me or open her eyes. She did not grab or feel me back besides rubbing her legs against mine sometimes. At one point she mumbled that I was "warm" as my body breathed against hers and I thought she said I felt like a "worm" and we started laughing at that. Then she broke away from me and said we should probably go to sleep. I went to brush my teeth and when I came back she was already snoring on some single person futon and I slept on the floor.

 

The next morning I was worried she was going to tell me I scared her or creeped her out or something but she was completely normal, like nothing even happened. She definitely knows it happened even though she was tired because I was way more drunk than her and she has a better memory. But nope, never mentioned it, never asked why it happened. Just made me breakfast happily and drove me home. She asked for a goodbye hug and I made up some excuse because I was a little mad by her aloofness the night before. I would have been fine with a clear rejection but she left it totally ambiguous. I'm assuming it's a rejection but unless I'm crazy, there is no way she interpreted this as just me being platonically friendly, right? She knows full well I'm not gay and she knows full well that she is an attractive woman and she has told me she thinks I'm physically attractive, and she has always had a very strong emotional connection to me.

 

I guess I did all this stuff because I wanted to put myself on the table. Like "OK, you're seeing this guy now. But, you know, you're finally out of that other relationship, so, before you get serious with someone, I'm still here". Some people said I should have come on stronger but I was getting no feedback and started to feel like I was being a creep because she just did not respond physically...on the other hand, she knows she has zero reason to fear me, she has known me for a decade and knows I'd never harm her or do anything to assault her. She is also very vocal about rejecting guys that overstep their bounds and tells me stories like that all the time, so I have to admit I was a bit more reserved than I would have been because I didn't want to end up in the same category.

 

So what was the deal? Some girls have told me she was rejecting me but because of our history she did not want to hurt my feelings. Other women have said I need to ask her, but I already feel humiliated for putting myself out there and not getting any feedback. Was she nervous? Did she think we were just like, drunk cuddling? Were my moves too "safe"? Keep in mind we've been good friends for a while, so going in very aggressive all the sudden seemed like it'd be a bit much.

[Philosoraptor]

Dude, you missed your chance. She may be submissive and not comfortable making moves herself. But she wouldn't have been so calm in the moment if she was uncomfortable with you doing what you were doing.

 

Look, you're already emotionally invested clearly. Next time you see her just pull her in for a kiss. Stop all the questions and self suffering.

[Standard-Fare]

I disagree with the above.

 

If she wanted things to go further, she definitely would have given you a sign – touching you back more, turning her face toward you for a kiss, or whatever. Instead you got nothing, so you were right to show restraint.

 

You can classify that only as "drunken cuddling." And you can't be sure what her reasons were for holding back. Maybe she just wasn't feeling anything sexual, and made sure to put the brakes on anything beyond innocent affection.

 

Or maybe this relationship she's been talking about is more serious than you'd like to believe. You seem very dismissive of that factor. She could very well consider affection with you a violation to this other relationship.

 

I think the ball's in her court, and you need to wait to see some clear "green light" signals from her.

[chimpanA-2-chimpanZ]

I also disagree with the first post, and please God don't just suddenly kiss her the next time you meet. She is almost guaranteed to slap you and you will deserve it.

 

Look, it's hard to know what she was thinking, but I wouldn't assume that she knows you're interested now. She might just think you had too much to drink. We all know people who say and do things they don't mean after they've been drinking. As a woman, my gut instinct upon reading this is that she's not interested, but everyone's different. If you really do want to let her know your feelings you'll have to talk to her about it. It will probably be a little uncomfortable, but you'll at least know where you stand.

[someguytho]

@Philosoraptor- She is not submissive, at least not with other guys. She mentioned something about making moves on other guys who were hesitant on dates.

 

@Standard- Yeah that's why I didn't do anything more.

 

@chimpanA-2-chimpanZ- I'll just assume it's a rejection and move on

[Philosoraptor]

I'll just assume it's a rejection and move on

 

Look, honestly that sounds like a horrible decision. You've said you have feelings for her and apparently are confused enough to seek out and write a giant thread. To me that reads you are interested enough to take a chance and not continue to be confused or wonder what if.

 

Maybe don't go as direct as I would (I'm not one to waste time or emotion), but at least give yourself a fighting chance. Lay out the facts to her. About the cuddling (kissing on the neck), flirting, and the connection you two have had for years. If you're interested at least don't handicap yourself and assume something that no one but her knows.

 

Only she knows if she's interested. And I'm sorry but just because she is assertive with other guys doesn't mean that she's going to be assertive with the guy she's been friends with for 10 years. There is a lot of back story there and she may be just as worried to shake it as you are. To me it sounds like she was putting herself out and waiting for you to make a move. Right now she may feel just as rejected as you, but neither of you may be brave enough to do anything to change it.

 

But it doesn't matter what anyone here says or what she may feel(since you're obviously confused), it only matters what you feel. Is the prospect of having a relationship with her worth putting yourself out there?

 

I only suggested a kiss because you don't have to think, and she doesn't have to think. It either naturally comes back to you or it doesn't. The last girl I went on a first date with I kissed less than an hour of meeting her. I took her to dinner after meeting her and kissing her. After 21 months, I married her June 21st this year. Put up or shut up, either it's worth the risk or it isn't.

[Standard-Fare]

Yeah, I agree in general with the "take action" philosophy but in this case the guy risks losing a longtime friendship and/or scaring the girl off by being too forward.

 

I think the girl made a definite choice in her cuddling behavior. And I've actually been in a similar situation with a male friend once... drunk, ended up spooning on a couch, but I wouldn't let him get past minor neck kissing. Why? Even with my inebriated judgment, I wasn't looking for anything even approaching sex with him. Ever. But that doesn't mean he's a disgusting creature I can't show affection to.

 

OP, I think you need to be on the lookout for cues from her, continue trying to put yourself in "affectionate" scenarios, and see what happens. By all means go in for the kiss if she gives you even the slightest invitation for that.

[todreaminblue]

if you would have had sex it would have been a huge mistake......she knew that, so you and her didnt go there ......when a girl says we should probably go to sleep it means if you dont something might happen that would be a regret or that is what we should probably go to sleep means to me.....

 

a girl lets you hold her in a compromising and vulnerable position, a girl who has stated she is vocal in rejecting guys advances and you dont know where you stand.......she asks you for a good bye hug makes you breakfast and yet you are willing to give up.....

 

 

 

 

i would say this girl isnt that important to you, that she has shown defined interest and restrained physical intimacy with you in other words she doesnt just want sex with you, and your fear of rejection is going to be a problem for you in the future not only with this girl but women who you are interested in, for you cant voice exactly what you want either....if you like this girl tell her......the friendship has overstepped friendship boundaries due to alcohol probably....certainly needs to be dealt with talked about and progression needed.....so step up..or fear owns you.....deb .

[someguytho]

Yeah, I agree in general with the "take action" philosophy but in this case the guy risks losing a longtime friendship and/or scaring the girl off by being too forward.

 

What's funny is I admitted my feelings to her 10 years back when she got a boyfriend (she had already been telling me she liked him before that which is why I decided to not even go for her) and cut contact but she would not let me be. That wound up being the only reason we stayed friends. She's basically impossible to get rid of at this point.

 

I think the girl made a definite choice in her cuddling behavior.

 

Yes me too. Even though I was drunker than her I could the body language. She was cool spooning with me. She did not, at any point "reject" me. But her body was basically not "into it". The breathing and kissing did not make her neck move or have her push against me or anything.

 

Why? Even with my inebriated judgment, I wasn't looking for anything even approaching sex with him. Ever. But that doesn't mean he's a disgusting creature I can't show affection to.

 

I guess that parts a little more complicated. She used to be attracted to me physically and emotionally...I have no clue how she feels now.

 

OP, I think you need to be on the lookout for cues from her, continue trying to put yourself in "affectionate" scenarios, and see what happens. By all means go in for the kiss if she gives you even the slightest invitation for that.

 

Yeah. I don't think we'll be hanging out alone for a while though.

[someguytho]

if you would have had sex it would have been a huge mistake......she knew that, so you and her didnt go there ......when a girl says we should probably go to sleep it means if you dont something might happen that would be a regret or that is what we should probably go to sleep means to me.....

 

Right, OK. I can understand that. My problem was that I was the one that made the move. She knows me. We're closer than other guys who have done similar things...just throw me a bone saying "Sorry I don't like where this is going" or something. I just wanted CLEAR feedback. She is clear with other people and with me she has always been ambiguous and it bothers me.

 

a girl lets you hold her in a compromising and vulnerable position, a girl who has stated she is vocal in rejecting guys advances and you dont know where you stand.......she asks you for a good bye hug makes you breakfast and yet you are willing to give up.....

 

We've been friends for a long time. With her, it's impossible to tell what is friendship and what is "more than that". The goodbye hugs are standard. So are the breakfasts. I'm not taking those things for granted. I usually thank her for being so hospitable to me and she makes it out to be nothing, but she knows I appreciate it.

 

But she also sometimes loses contact for months and then comes out of nowhere saying she really misses me. She wants me to talk to her more but then she is impossible to talk to. She tells me she is "Always honest" with me and then she winds up confessing secret feelings, admitting she wasn't completely honest with me! Our friendship is a hall of mirrors from both of us.

 

 

i would say this girl isnt that important to you, that she has shown defined interest and restrained physical intimacy with you in other words she doesnt just want sex with you, and your fear of rejection is going to be a problem for you in the future not only with this girl but women who you are interested in, for you cant voice exactly what you want either....if you like this girl tell her......the friendship has overstepped friendship boundaries due to alcohol probably....certainly needs to be dealt with talked about and progression needed.....so step up..or fear owns you.....deb .

 

That's a bit unfair. First off, it's putting the entire onus on me to do everything. I showed HER physical interest, and while she obviously has every right to enjoy it while not having it escalate, I believe it's her responsibility to CLEAR THAT UP at some point. Like "Hey, I liked what we did but I didn't want it to go there last night, OK?" something to let me know like "Keep going in that direction, just another time". Instead it feels a bit like she just laughed it off or I fed her ego or something. Either that or she is scared being upfront with me might get me cutting contact and she does not want that.

 

Sure, I can step up. But so can she to some degree. There is no reason she can't meet me half way or even a quarter of the way.

[todreaminblue]

Right, OK. I can understand that. My problem was that I was the one that made the move. She knows me. We're closer than other guys who have done similar things...just throw me a bone saying "Sorry I don't like where this is going" or something. I just wanted CLEAR feedback. She is clear with other people and with me she has always been ambiguous and it bothers me.

 

 

 

We've been friends for a long time. With her, it's impossible to tell what is friendship and what is "more than that". The goodbye hugs are standard. So are the breakfasts. I'm not taking those things for granted. I usually thank her for being so hospitable to me and she makes it out to be nothing, but she knows I appreciate it.

 

But she also sometimes loses contact for months and then comes out of nowhere saying she really misses me. She wants me to talk to her more but then she is impossible to talk to. She tells me she is "Always honest" with me and then she winds up confessing secret feelings, admitting she wasn't completely honest with me! Our friendship is a hall of mirrors from both of us.

 

 

 

 

That's a bit unfair. First off, it's putting the entire onus on me to do everything. I showed HER physical interest, and while she obviously has every right to enjoy it while not having it escalate, I believe it's her responsibility to CLEAR THAT UP at some point. Like "Hey, I liked what we did but I didn't want it to go there last night, OK?" something to let me know like "Keep going in that direction, just another time". Instead it feels a bit like she just laughed it off or I fed her ego or something. Either that or she is scared being upfront with me might get me cutting contact and she does not want that.

 

Sure, I can step up. But so can she to some degree. There is no reason she can't meet me half way or even a quarter of the way.

 

you wanted clear cut defined cues from someone who has been drinking....that is a little hard to get i feel ...next time dont drink......you know it influences inhibitions......adn makes things really really....well fuzzy...

 

if you really care for her sit her down and talk it out......you are right she should meet you half way so you show her the path....and then start walking on it.....normally if a guy sits me down and says hey lets be honest ....my ears prick up and i breathe a sigh of relief...because if a guy can sit calmly and talk to me i pick up on thatand i can morror quite effectively....if i feel deceit or hidden stuff...i am uncomfortable and i do feel deceit..........and i relax into it when its honest...because its comfortable for me to open up to the right guy, it flows out of me straight from my heart....its the way i know things can change and be done......

 

honesty......rocks

 

do you really want to move forward with her do you really want to progress .....and risk the friendship...if you do .....then it is worth the risk because honestly if you are willing to risk the friendship its never going to go back to the way ti was before and needs to change...i would say it already has changed for you due to how close you got..you are frustrated arent you?.but that is my opinion..........deb

Edited August 5, 2014 by todreaminblue

[someguytho]

honestly if you are willing to risk the friendship its never going to go back to the way ti was before and needs to change...i would say it already has changed for you due to how close you got..you are frustrated arent you?.but that is my opinion..........deb

 

We've both done this so many times now that it's probably not even possible to risk the friendship really. Which is actually kind of the problem from my end. Because she is "seeing" this other guy, she has really nothing to risk. She knows we'll probably still be friends if she rejects me and she'll be with someone anyway. I'll be the one that is left out in the cold, at least temporarily. That's kind of why I put the ball in her court.

 

If she gives me some kind of opening I'll take it from there, but I just don't see myself doing the "sit down" thing at this point.

[mightycpa]

Why don't you just grow a pair and ask her? What's the worst that could happen?

 

You: Matilda, remember when we were spooning the other night, and I had my mouth on your neck, and I was nibbling on you and I was touching you? I really liked doing that, I thought it was hot. Did you like it too? Would you like to do that again sometime?

 

Matilda: Don't you remember I said you felt like a worm?

 

Yeah, don't worry, she probably won't say that.

[Benjo]

Never posted here but we are in a similar situation so I thought I might register and chime in.

 

The short of it is that I have known her for 12 years.. it has been a very interesting on again off again with distance and different relationships for the both of us... I have seen her more than usual this year but.. this time it seemed different with similar results in the disappearing scenario. In my situation I have been trying to spend more time with her, recently, in order to get to know her better as a day to day individual.

 

Everything has failed and she won't seem to try and suggest a better date for this... I realize that she has a very busy life but we will all make time for someone don't we?

 

Thus I sent her a very thoughtful email with regards to this lengthy experience... I was reluctant to do so because, like most, I would prefer to talk in person and treasure everything that we have had together.

 

So.. I guess what I am trying to tell you is that a person can only take so much back and forth before they become emotionally tired of that particular situation... like I am. I can get over her.... in time... but when she says or does something that suggest more... what am I to think or feel?

 

It just isn't fair my friend. And that is what I have delivered to her in a thoughtful letter. The time to be clear is now.. it isn't fair that YOU will make yourself emotionally unavailable to someone that will actually appreciate what you have to offer.

 

Perhaps your results will differ from mine. Only time will tell now..

 

 

Cheers.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Benjo

[Polak]

I agree with everyone who says to be upfront and honest about your questions. Things need to be communicated or you'll be stuck in limbo, not sure what to do, like now. Of course you don't need to "sit her down" and make it a formal thing, just be casual and friendly about what you have to say. Being friends with her for over a decade should make that easy for ya.

Let us know how things progress.

[someguytho]

Hey guys, almost forgot about this. Figured I'd post an update.

 

Since that day we parted ways, we have only spoke once briefly by email where she cancelled some loose plans we had. That was way back in the beginning of August and we have not seen each other communicated since, so that would be my answer. At this point, I don't even know if we're really friends since we see each other once every 3-4 months and she doesn't seem too keen on talking to me.

 

I got this into my head months ago and have pretty much since forgotten about the whole thing and moved on. But I saw this link in my Bookmarks and remembered I never updated anyone who was still interested (maybe no one?) so there it is. Thanks for the responses.