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Irreconcilable Differences


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Xelmnathar

Hello all, I hope you are doing well.

I (34) dated this women (25) for 4 months and its the first real relationship I had in about 12 years. We met at work and she immediately started oversharing, and love bombing me. Making grand gestures, introducing me to her family, telling me she loved me. We talked about having kids, marriage, plans for the future. I fell for it and opened my heart. What I didn't know is that I require a certain amount of emotional validation that I didn't know I needed. 

When she went to work at a different place, I started seeing her less and less. She started packing her schedule with things other than time together and I felt her pull away. She started saying how she wanted to travel abroad and live their for a couple years. I said I would make it work. She said she was the CEO of her time and would not compromise on how often she could see me.

She had a male best-friend that she used to sleep with and I tried my best to feel comfortable with it, however I expressed that I felt jealous. I think I used the wrong word, because I am not jealous of their connection, but that it made me uncomfortable. I would make infrequent jealous remarks. I really believe it all stemmed from this thought in the back of my head that I was not a priority for her.  It all came to ahead NYE when she told me she was spending it alone with another male childhood bestfriend. I told her I felt jealous (rather than using the word uncomfortable). She said that these male friends of hers are non-negotiables and didn't want to hear my side of it. I expressed that it wasn't her actions that caused these feelings, but they were trauma responses from previous betrayals. 

She told me she will continue to work with and make friends with anyone she wants, and its her right. I told her I would seek help and work towards getting better. But with the precedent I set, she couldn't see me in any other light than hurt. She couldn't reconcile that she would have to think twice before doing something and that it would potentially hurt me. She didn't want to communicate. Talk it through. Nothing. She said she needed to do this for herself.

She said she had to prioritize her happiness first and I totally understand. I am not angry at her. She isn't a bad person. I just hate myself for ruining this relationship. I am not putting her on a pedestal, but I feel like I ruined a chance that God gave for me to be with someone. 

I'm just lost. I'm doing NC and its doing well. I muted her on social media because we will be working together again in March and she still checks my story. I refuse to look at hers. I just needed some time to figure out my trauma and why I kept feeling insecure with her. I think my heart just knew deep down it wouldn't work and that she wasn't in love with me, but that she just loved me.

I wanted her to choose us, but she chose herself. 

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4 hours ago, Xelmnathar said:

I told her I would seek help and work towards getting better.

This has been a difficult time for you, but consider it a learning experience..... but not on the way you think.   The help you should seek is in finding your boundaries and maintaining them.   I'm a woman and I'll tell you straight up that she's a selfish cow and no man in his right mind would have continued dating her after she showed her true colours

Be glad she's out of your romantic life

Edited by basil67
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Xelmnathar
2 hours ago, basil67 said:

This has been a difficult time for you, but consider it a learning experience..... but not on the way you think.   The help you should seek is in finding your boundaries and maintaining them.   I'm a woman and I'll tell you straight up that she's a selfish cow and no man in his right mind would have continued dating her after she showed her true colours

Be glad she's out of your romantic life

Thank you for your words. 
 

There was an extremely empathetic side to her. She gave me extreme thoughtful gifts. Gathered my friends for my birthday. And wanted what was best for me in my life. She said she understood that I needed someone different.

She is a teacher like I am. She could not reconcile that who she is and what she wants would hurt me. I am not trying to defend her. I am just trying to share that there is a different side to her.

She just at some point decided that I was less important to her than she was to herself. No my emotional needs were not being met, this is true. However, she is not an inherently selfish person. I just think she is self-centered.

I think she likes the idea of herself in love more than actually being in love. Which she did say she was in love with me. 

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There was absolutely nothing wrong with you expressing your feelings of discomfort.

Her refusal to even listen to you and her subsequent breakup means just one thing, that she is selfish and insensitive.

Add to this her love-bombing and crazy early marriage with kids talk, which are big red flags, and you can safely say “good riddance”.

Please don’t be sad that you aren’t with her any longer, you can do better. Use this time alone to become stronger and more respectful or yourself, learn to recognize your boundaries.

 

Edited by Gebidozo
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2 hours ago, Xelmnathar said:

Thank you for your words. 
 

There was an extremely empathetic side to her. She gave me extreme thoughtful gifts. Gathered my friends for my birthday. And wanted what was best for me in my life. She said she understood that I needed someone different.

She is a teacher like I am. She could not reconcile that who she is and what she wants would hurt me. I am not trying to defend her. I am just trying to share that there is a different side to her.

She just at some point decided that I was less important to her than she was to herself. No my emotional needs were not being met, this is true. However, she is not an inherently selfish person. I just think she is self-centered.

I think she likes the idea of herself in love more than actually being in love. Which she did say she was in love with me. 

Very few people are 100% bad.  Even abusers can be good at times and this is often what makes the choice to leave difficult.   

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  • 3 weeks later...
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Xelmnathar

 

UPDATE AND QUESTIONS:

So we must work together, very closely, from March to May. I will have to see her each day. I CC'd her along with half a dozen others on an email and she responded with two of her own. She seems to be enthusiastic to work together. 

I have done a lot of introspection into our relationship. How she tried it help me, how I failed as a man to be confident in front of her tests (which she gave to ensure her safety), how my actions didn't follow my words. I see how she may have lost respect for me on numerous occasions. I understand that I was VERY patient and accommodating with her. 

I am just wondering if it is worth it to call her and try to talk about how she feels about the breakup now that we are 23 days out from it. She is an avoidant type, so I believe she has moved on or has drowned herself in her work or other activities. I have struggled since the break up from back to back health emergencies that have given me a lot of time to reflect on my mistakes. I don't need her validation, but I just want her to understand that I know where I may have messed up, and I also want to hold her accountable to her actions that led to my insecurities and eventual emotional spiraling. 

I want her to know that it was not okay to gaslight me about my emotions, that it is not fair to just ask for blanket trust when we really did not know each other. That I felt constantly tested and help up to a rubric, and this led to an erosion of my security in the relationship. I need her to know that territorialism and jealousy are natural emotions, and they should be expressed when they are felt. That I all I needed was emotional validation and for her to try to understand my feelings instead of be defensive and minimize them. That I wasn't actually jealous until i felt that my emotional needs were being unmet. I need her to understand that it was my fault for not standing for my boundaries early on and that we should have just been friends. I need her to understand that I felt that the emotional/practical enmeshment she had with her male best friend left me feeling that there was no room in her heart for me. That when she started taking on extra responsibilities and prioritizing herself and her time, that I felt there was no room for us to grow. That I felt the only way I could connect with her was through sex, and so that is what I focused on. I didn't know how to communicate these things at the time. I was just so focused on trying to be accommodating towards her and her needs. I kept shaving myself, more and more.

I just want her to know all of these things, but I don't know if she would accept them. If she would turn defensive. If this would just complicate the work relationship that we are to have. I know closure comes from within, but I just need her to know these things. What should I do? Do any of you have expert advice or experience in a similar situation?

I am in desperate need of feedback. 

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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Honestly, I would leave it alone. She's probably not going to give you the kind of response that you would appreciate, and that would likely set you back and cause you more turmoil.

The most valuable thing you can do with the lessons you've learned is internalize them so that, when faced with a similar situation in the future, you can protect yourself better.

Edited by Acacia98
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Xelmnathar

Thank you. It is just so hard for me to reconcile this mistake of mine. I don't know if I can live with myself.

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Xelmnathar

I am 34m and she is 25f. 

I am working again with her in March. I don't know if she has closed herself to me forever, if she regrets things, if she moved on to being attached with her best-male friend or her childhood friend. I know it shouldn't matter. I will, however, see her every single day until May. We have been in communication professional the past two weeks. She has asked how she can help me and I have tried to find ways to support her back.

She consistently reinforced this idea that she loved me. Saw a future with me. She shared all her trauma with me. Shared me with her family and loved ones. Made surprise birthday party for me. Said the intimacy with me was "different", all within 4 months. I think she was fearful-avoidant. One day at work, I expressed a joke where she was flirting with a guy who came into the building. I thought everything was okay. When we stopped working so closely, I could sense she was pulling away. She started testing to see if I was indeed jealous, that I did not trust her - a core wound of hers.

But I expressed my feelings of jealousy in the best way I could. I just said "I feel jealous" and her reaction was dismissive and defensive. I told her it wasn't about her actions, but my past trauma, but she could not handle feeling like she had to walk on eggshells and that she would have male friends and coworkers in the future - she catastrophized this. I shared in another thread on breakup's how this wasn't the first time, I expressed insecure statements and feelings of discomfort with her male best-friend who she paid for his car when he needed it, says I love you to, and made psychiatric appointments for. We had various talks about it, but I moved on and trusted her relationship was strictly platonic.

Things continued to progress until she started taking time for herself more - putting distance between us. I felt that it was all due to this feeling that she had that she wasn't safe. She started saying things like "she had to prioritize herself" and that she couldn't make me #1". I didn't want to be #1, I just wanted to feel like I mattered. Maybe I was too needy, although I never texted her during the day, she always called first. I never understood if it was because she thought that I needed that, rather than it is what she wanted. Maybe I should have ended it there. 

I was in a different country and she was going to spend NYE with a childhood friend of hers, a nextdoor neighbor and a guy, and again I expressed my feeling of jealousy. n the end, we had an emotional conversation on NYE and I dropped the ball and used some crude examples to explain male jealousy that I am not proud of. I think the combination of our trauma's triggered each other in very tough ways, but for her it was much worse. I used words like "I felt territorial" and that another guy shouldn't be helping her when she is sick, that it is my job to do that. I recognize how I was at fault for making those emotionally charged statements. 

She couldn't see a future with me anymore, especially since she was planning on studying abroad for a couple years in the near future. I don't know if this is because she became avoidant or not. I am just so shaken by this 4 month relationship. I feel like everything is my fault. Why? I feel that she is a fearful-avoidant.

I just want to explain things to her from my perspective, now that I have had time to process things. I want to tell her that gaslighting me when I shared me emotions, making them about her feelings instead, was not okay and left me emotionally insecure. I want to tell her that I did love her, but that at some point I noticed her words and her actions weren't lining up. 

I am looking for wise-words, kindness, support, tough-love, anything. I can't deal with the fact that the epicenter of this conflict was my feelings of jealousy. I also know, that if something as small as a feeling of jealousy would be enough to derail the love she said she had for me, then it was never love to begin with. Maybe admiration. But not love. 

What do I do? I suppose, move on, is the best choice. If you took this time to read this, please help me. Here is a link to my previous posts on this subject. 
Thank you all.
 

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ExpatInItaly
5 hours ago, Xelmnathar said:

If this would just complicate the work relationship that we are to have.

It certainly wouldn't help it, no. 

I would not go to her with any of this. She has already showed you she doesn't really care to hear your side of things. It's not like she's going to suddenly listen and apologize, man. 

I know it's very hard. But I would work on accepting that re-hashing this with her again isn't going to help you move on. It will keep you stuck. 

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1 hour ago, Xelmnathar said:

I expressed a joke where she was flirting with a guy who came into the building. I thought everything was okay. When we stopped working so closely, I could sense she was pulling away. She started testing to see if I was indeed jealous, that I did not trust her - a core wound of hers.

This is the first thing which stood out to me in your post.   I thought you were foolish and disrespectful making a "joke" about her flirting with a guy".   Turns out, you weren't joking, but actually have all kinds of jealousy issues.    And your jealous behaviour continues

1 hour ago, Xelmnathar said:

I used words like "I felt territorial" and that another guy shouldn't be helping her when she is sick, that it is my job to do that.

Now your actions have crossed over into control.  

1 hour ago, Xelmnathar said:

I also know, that if something as small as a feeling of jealousy would be enough to derail the love she said she had for me, then it was never love to begin with.

Oh hell no!  One moment of jealousy is small.  Ongoing jealousy like you displayed is toxic.

The "I feel" statements you used does not negate this.   No matter how fond of you she was in the start, the kind of behaviour you displayed will send even the best woman running for the hills.   That you can't understand her leaving you shows an utter lack of understanding of how toxic you were being.

To be clear, YOUR PAST TRAUMA IS NOT HER PROBLEM.  If you have a problem with jealousy and trauma, disclose to your therapist....not your partner.   

She was right to end the relationship.   She did not gaslight you.  And she's not "fearful - avoidant", she was rightfully intolerant of your unacceptable behaviour.   Given her young age and the imbalanced dynamic of power with you being so much older, she acted very sensibly in walking away from this mess.

Go and get yourself sorted out before you destroy the next relationship you enter.

Edited by basil67
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Just now, basil67 said:

This is the first thing which stood out to me in your post.   I thought you were foolish and disrespectful making a "joke" about her flirting with a guy".   Turns out, you weren't joking, but actually have all kinds of jealousy issues.    And your jealous behaviour continues

Now your actions have crossed over into control.  

Oh hell no!  One moment of jealousy is small.  Ongoing jealousy like you displayed is toxic.

The "I feel" statements you used does not negate this.   No matter how fond of you she was in the start, the kind of behaviour you displayed will send even the best woman running for the hills.   That you can't understand her leaving you shows an utter lack of understanding of how toxic you were being.

To be clear, YOUR PAST TRAUMA IS NOT HER PROBLEM.  If you have a problem with jealousy and trauma, disclose to your therapist....not your partner.   

She was right to end the relationship.   She did not gaslight you.  And she's not "fearful - avoidant", she was rightfully intolerant of your unacceptable behaviour.   Given her young age and the imbalanced dynamic of power with you being so much older, she acted very sensibly in walking away from this mess.

Go and get yourself sorted out before you destroy the next relationship you enter.

Thank you so much for your response. I am in therapy. However, you gave me much different advice and suggestions in this post here. I am just confused now. I told her my trauma was not her responsibility. I don't think that expressive jealousy in a healthy manner is considered controlling. I did use the word "territorial" yes, I own that and should not have used that - but in a situation where she dismissed my feelings entirely about her male best-friend, wanting more time and her making it about her, and the guy she is spending NYE with...I felt like I was losing her. I know she was not my wife, but if I am going to be with someone long-term, that someone else is taking care of them does not sit well with me. I see how how that is controlling, however, and will do some introspection here. Again, I did not express this correctly at the time as I was in a panic. *Edit* This also knowing that I had a pattern of behavior of making insecure comments. Out of the dozen or so jealousy tests I passed, I only failed twice.

I appreciate any clarity on this you can provide.
 

 

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1 minute ago, Xelmnathar said:

Thank you so much for your response. I am in therapy. However, you gave me much different advice and suggestions in this post here. I am just confused now. I told her my trauma was not her responsibility. I don't think that expressive jealousy in a healthy manner is considered controlling. I did use the word "territorial" yes, I own that and should not have used that - but in a situation where she dismissed my feelings entirely about her male best-friend, wanting more time and her making it about her, and the guy she is spending NYE with...I felt like I was losing her. I know she was not my wife, but if I am going to be with someone long-term, that someone else is taking care of them does not sit well with me. I see how how that is controlling, however, and will do some introspection here. Again, I did not express this correctly at the time as I was in a panic. 

I appreciate any clarity on this you can provide.
 

 

My advice was different this time because you told two very different stories

FWIW, "expressing jealousy in a healthy manner" is a contradiction in terms.   If you believe you are experiencing jealousy because you can't deal with their behaviour, then leave the relationship.  The fact that one person may make questionable choices does not give you the right to act toxic in return.  

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They are both the same story. Just missing pieces of what happened at different parts. The issue on NYE with me saying I felt territorial, that taking care of her is "my job", was the end of it. As you said, rightly so because I was being toxic. My intention was to never hurt her on control her, just a fools desperate attempt to try to set a boundary.

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16 minutes ago, Xelmnathar said:

They are both the same story. Just missing pieces of what happened at different parts. The issue on NYE with me saying I felt territorial, that taking care of her is "my job", was the end of it. As you said, rightly so because I was being toxic. My intention was to never hurt her on control her, just a fools desperate attempt to try to set a boundary.

Come on, you're old enough to know that leaving out integral parts of a story changes the story.  If you want advice which does not change, be a reliable narrator from the start

With regards to boundaries and this NYE friend of hers, what you do is tell your partner what you need ONCE.  If they cross that boundary again then you end the relationship.   A boundary is not about expressing jealousy to have behave how you want them to

Edited by basil67
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58 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Come on, you're old enough to know that leaving out integral parts of a story changes the story.  If you want advice which does not change, be a reliable narrator from the start

With regards to boundaries and this NYE friend of hers, what you do is tell your partner what you need ONCE.  If they cross that boundary again then you end the relationship.   A boundary is not about expressing jealousy to have behave how you want them to

Agreed. I never once told her she had to change, augment, or behave in any way I wanted. I just told her I felt jealous, and yes, felt territorial. This guy, childhood friend, who she told me she had a crush on in her childhood, who she told me she couldn’t FT me while I was in another country because she had to jump in the shower, who then told me she was going with him to buy pants because his crotch keeps ripping, and buy groceries with him, who she was going to spend NYE alone with.

I felt some type of way and I came out ugly. Knowing she told me she wanted to spend her life with me, loved me, I expected to have my my feelings heard, understood, and I would have obviously realized after I cooled if I was being irrational, or maybe she would have realized she was being dismissive of my feelings.

When she told me her male best-friend was non-negotiable, I did my best to understand her, and although we spoke about it like 4 times, I understood his importance her life and I always trusted her. I just wanted my feelings validated by the person I loved. 
 

i think i should just listen to your initial advice, and knowing that I have inner work to do, I should be glad it’s over.

 

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@basil67 is right. Your case is about boundaries and decisions, not about jealousy. Jealous behavior is always wrong. And trust me, no love can withstand ongoing jealousy. It’s just a matter of time when the other person is going to feel they cannot take it anymore.

But this is not to say that your feeling of discomfort over your ex’s too close relationship with another man were wrong or unjustified. I imagine that I would feel the same way. I’d sit down with her and ask her to tone down that connection to something I’d be able to accept. If she then refuses to even try to do that for me, I’d know that our relationship isn’t as important to her as it is to me, and would break up with her. Jealousy, “territorial” stuff, or whatever past traumas have absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

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3 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

@basil67 is right. Your case is about boundaries and decisions, not about jealousy. Jealous behavior is always wrong. And trust me, no love can withstand ongoing jealousy. It’s just a matter of time when the other person is going to feel they cannot take it anymore.

But this is not to say that your feeling of discomfort over your ex’s too close relationship with another man were wrong or unjustified. I imagine that I would feel the same way. I’d sit down with her and ask her to tone down that connection to something I’d be able to accept. If she then refuses to even try to do that for me, I’d know that our relationship isn’t as important to her as it is to me, and would break up with her. Jealousy, “territorial” stuff, or whatever past traumas have absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

I believe past traumas, jealousy, and territorial feelings are from anxious behaviors exacerbated  by emotional needs being unmet. I realize that they were being unmet and her insistence on never compromising and doubling down on “prioritizing” herself should have given me the cue to leave. I wasn’t secure at the time and was leaning into my anxious behaviors. Typically I secure, but have found out I will lean into anxious feelings when they are not met, and or, my partner cannot/refuses to meet my needs.

My hunch is that she cheated on me anyway. This may be anxious thoughts, but when she spoke to me about what happened at a wedding or after we broke up she couldn’t look at me. 

thank you 

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@basil67 @Gebidozo
I believe past traumas, jealousy, and territorial feelings are from anxious behaviors exacerbated  by emotional needs being unmet. I realize that they were being unmet and her insistence on never compromising and doubling down on “prioritizing” herself should have given me the cue to leave. I wasn’t secure at the time and was leaning into my anxious behaviors. Typically I secure, but have found out I will lean into anxious feelings when they are not met, and or, my partner cannot/refuses to meet my needs. I should have had the self respect to leave earlier before any jealousy arose. I am allowed to express my feelings. Even jealousy. Just because I feel jealous doesn't mean I am a jealous person. Just because I feel angry, doesnt mean I am angry person. Even if I act on jealousy, even if I act on anger, or sadness, we are not defined by our worst traits.

I think if you are with someone who loves you, is ready for a relationship, and is secure or willing to do the work, then they will see past these issues as stemming from issues and will give you back love and empathy. As I would for her or anyone I care about. Maybe I am just overly patient and accommodating. I will work on setting boundaries in the future and walking away if I see my partner becomes dismissive or defensive. This does not excuse me for expressing myself in very ugly ways and I will reflect and improve on how to better share these thoughts.

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39 minutes ago, Xelmnathar said:

I am allowed to express my feelings.

Yes, there is no law against expressing your feelings.  However, it does not mean the other has to listen or work with you, particularly if you've only been together for a short time.

Quote

Just because I feel jealous doesn't mean I am a jealous person. Just because I feel angry, doesn't mean I am angry person. Even if I act on jealousy, even if I act on anger, or sadness, we are not defined by our worst traits. 

I disagree.  If someone does these things often enough, it does define them.   

Quote

 

I think if you are with someone who loves you, is ready for a relationship, and is secure or willing to do the work, then they will see past these issues as stemming from issues and will give you back love and empathy

I agree with you if we're talking about a new problem in a solid, long term relationship.

But you were only with her for only four months.   This early time is when we figure out if it could become a relationship.  In this case, she recognised your behaviours as stuff she doesn't want to deal with.  She was smart to walk away.

Your expectations of a fledgling relationship are completely unrealistic.  

 

Edited by basil67
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@Xelmnathar All that you write about expressing feelings, being heard, working through problems and commitment and "I feel" statements....is this coming from your therapist?   If so, are the therapists aware that you're applying this to four months of dating a 25yo?   If so, you need a new therapist!   

Have they ever talked to you about other people having the right to NOT work through your stuff or validate your feelings if they don't want to?   Have they talked about how the women you date have the right to walk away without discussion if they don't want to deal with whatever stuff you've got going on?  Have they told you that if the person you're dating describes you are a 'jealous person', that they they have a right to hold the view and express it?

Edited by basil67
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3 hours ago, Xelmnathar said:

I think if you are with someone who loves you, is ready for a relationship, and is secure or willing to do the work, then they will see past these issues as stemming from issues and will give you back love and empathy.

Sorry, but that’s not how romantic relationships work.

First of all, applying the word “love” to a 4-month relationship is overkill. But even if both of you defined it as “love”, you can’t expect the other person to tolerate something that they find intolerable. Just as you’re free to express your emotions, she is free to express hers. If she couldn’t bear your jealousy, then she couldn’t bear it. And that is understandable, because jealousy is a known killer of love and destroyer of relationship.

Again, I’m not saying that she was right and you were wrong. This case isn’t about right and wrong, it’s about compatibility and boundaries. The two of you obviously had very different boundaries, and she realized your weren’t compatible as a romantic couple and walked away. That’s pretty much the gist of it.

Now, you’re saying that if she truly loved you she would’ve stayed with you despite your jealousy, make compromises, etc. Maybe so,  it what I’m afraid of is that, in your next relationship, you’re going to conduct such a “love test” again. As someone who used to do that a lot, I implore you not to do that.

Try to accept the simple truth of life: there is no such a thing as unconditional love. Every love has conditions, it’s just that those conditions differ from person to person. Beware that jealousy is one of those things that drives away even the most patient and tolerant people.

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@Xelmnathar,

There's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable that your girlfriend is maintaining a close relationship with a man she used to sleep with. She doesn't see anything wrong with doing that. You have a problem with it. You know what that means? It means you have different values around the issue of exes and boundaries. You are perfectly justified to bring it up in conversation. If she insists on maintaining that friendship as it is, that's her decision. But it doesn't mean you are wrong and should apologize. It means you two are incompatible and should break up.

Incidentally, many of us are like you: we don't maintain close friendships with exes and we would feel uncomfortable if our significant others did that. The whole "close friends with exes" thing would definitely be a deal-breaker for me. I wouldn't even bother bringing it up in discussion. I would simply observe, recognize that I didn't belong, and remove myself from the situation.

Now, the problem with continuing to date someone when you are so mismatched in this way is this: her actions will feel like cheating to you. And you will feel disrespected and emotionally neglected. You will definitely feel insecure, and jealousy will follow. (For the purposes of this response, I am giving your ex the benefit of the doubt and assuming she was not actually cheating on you.)

There's no positive resolution to this situation. There's no way for you to "win" or pass her tests. The only healthy option you have is to end the relationship.

I have a feeling you're too inclined to put other people's feelings before your own and have impossible standards regarding being a man.

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Acacia98 's response reminded me of the tests.

Question: where were the tests?   And how does one figure out if words or an action is a test or it's a genuine boundary?  Or can it be both at one time?    (I do not understand tests)

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2 hours ago, basil67 said:

Acacia98 's response reminded me of the tests.

Question: where were the tests?   And how does one figure out if words or an action is a test or it's a genuine boundary?  Or can it be both at one time?    (I do not understand tests)

You make a great point.

Maybe they weren't tests per se but he perceived them that way because he believed he had to prove he was a "real man." 

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