Third time the charm?

[Hopefullyjaded9]

11 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I think it’s absolutely wonderful how committed, forgiving and patient you are with him. But these good characteristics are also a major risk to you. You need to be careful not to lose yourself in chasing after him.

There has to be a major turn in his mentality, motivation and behaviour.  And it has to come soon, bacause frankly I think your time is running out. There’s only so much that one woman can take, right?

When “today” is confusing and difficult, place yourself in the shoes of an older you. Imagine yourself and the people around you, all 20 years older. There are two alternative stories, bith of them have taken place between 2023 and 2043. One in which you divorced in 2023 and the other in which you didn’t. Which story gives you greater feelings of regret?

This method of placing myself forward and looking back has been a great tool for me. 

 

Great advice. I am still here because for the first time in his life he is getting help and willing to change. If he is a changed man and I divorce him, then I am the one losing out. If he doesn’t change, I leave him and I come out knowing I gave it everything. 
 

That future question is tough. I just don’t know. I thought he was my forever and the love of my life. I still want that in so many ways. I feel like my entire heart is in his hands which is terrifying. If he changes, then the future looks wonderful. If he doesn’t, then I just don’t know. I have never thought about a future without out him now that I think about it. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

6 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

She cannot steal your life. Unless your whole life is this man, which doesn’t seem to be the case. Don’t make the mistake of thinking you need to “win” - your husband doesn’t sound like a prize worth winning, tbh. You sound like an accomplished, successful person. As you say, you won’t have financial concerns. I know it’s hard to come to terms with potential divorce, but your life will be better without him and what he’s done hanging over you.

He is not my whole life by any means but I have devoted almost half my life to him and supporting him in his career. I am the main caretaker for the kids and household. I hold our life together. I feel like I have done so much to benefit him and our family and then he just ruined it. I guess I just always thought I would experience the “return on the investment” so to speak later in our lives as our children got older and more independent and it was just us. Some days I don’t want there to be an us because is it really worth forgiving him again? Can I really ever move on and be comfortable loving this man again? And then I switch and think we had some really great years in the past and even days since discovery. He seems to be coming back to me after years of not being connected. He is constantly by my side versus doing his own thing. We are talking more than we have since we first dated. I am confused and keeping all options open until I am clearer. Maybe I can live with what he did and maybe I can’t. Only time will tell. 

[Will am I]

10 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

 

If he is a changed man and I divorce him, then I am the one losing out.

Are you? 

I mean: there are alternate endings to the story. The one where your husband becomes a better, more devoted husband and everyone lives long and happily is an enticing one, but there other options out there and  maybe some of them are as thrilling and lovely as the one on your mind.

10 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

That future question is tough. I just don’t know. I thought he was my forever and the love of my life. I still want that in so many ways. I feel like my entire heart is in his hands which is terrifying. If he changes, then the future looks wonderful. If he doesn’t, then I just don’t know. I have never thought about a future without out him now that I think about it. 

I think we are getting somewhere. Throughout this topic I sense a certain fear in your posts. Fear of losing your husband, “your life”. Now you have mentioned the reason. It’s fear of the unknown.

Don’t stick around in a bad marriage because you fear the (unknown) alternatives.

I think it’s good that you are starting to give thought to the different outcomes.

I advice you to invest a lot of time in your friendships. You are emotionally at risk and need to have people around you that will catch you if you fall. Also , the presence of close friends in your life will make everything a little bit less scary and guide you to your best choices.

[Will am I]

38 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

supporting him in his career. I am the main caretaker for the kids and household

Maybe it’s time to change that. Either in a continuation of the marriage or after a divorce, you’d need to be a strong and independent person. A focus on care and family logistics may not as fitting to the new situation as it used to be.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

51 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Are you? 

I mean: there are alternate endings to the story. The one where your husband becomes a better, more devoted husband and everyone lives long and happily is an enticing one, but there other options out there and  maybe some of them are as thrilling and lovely as the one on your mind.

I think we are getting somewhere. Throughout this topic I sense a certain fear in your posts. Fear of losing your husband, “your life”. Now you have mentioned the reason. It’s fear of the unknown.

Don’t stick around in a bad marriage because you fear the (unknown) alternatives.

I think it’s good that you are starting to give thought to the different outcomes.

I advice you to invest a lot of time in your friendships. You are emotionally at risk and need to have people around you that will catch you if you fall. Also , the presence of close friends in your life will make everything a little bit less scary and guide you to your best choices.

Yes the fear is huge. Working on that in my IC. I was happy in our relationship before his infidelity. I even was fairly happy in the relationship after the first discovery. I think I am afraid that if we divorce, I will be less happy not more happy. I do know I need to work on that. My friends who know about the situation have been great. Many have dealt with infidelity themselves and have successfully stayed married and have good advice. 

[BrinnM]

3 minutes ago, S2B said:

become a woman that is NOT so dependent on him/his actions/his decisions.

And most of all, his money.

BTW: it’s funny how often men who do well financially engage in affairs; they can just get away with it more easily. 
 

5 minutes ago, S2B said:

he will cheat again. Be ready for it this time

I tend to agree with this. He doesn’t seem to be too afraid of the consequences, with the exception of his daughters liking him less. But at some point he’ll just do what he wants to do. 

[RebeccaR]

16 minutes ago, S2B said:

become a woman that is NOT so dependent on him/his actions/his decisions.

This is the best advice, whether you divorce or reconcile 

[RebeccaR]

19 minutes ago, S2B said:

fwiw - he will cheat again. Be ready for it this time.

I have to agree. And even if he manages to stay away from this woman, or other OW, he carried on a 6 year parallel relationship with her while you were married. (Perhaps much longer - do you know for sure?)  Everything he has said about it being limerence is suspicious: limerence rarely lasts 6 years, and in any event, it sounds like it was a mutual physical and emotional bond. I don’t know how you get past that. Did any of your friends who reconciled after infidelity experience such a longstanding betrayal ?

[BrinnM]

8 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I have to agree. And even if he manages to stay away from this woman, or other OW, he carried on a 6 year parallel relationship with her while you were married. (Perhaps much longer - do you know for sure?)  Everything he has said about it being limerence is suspicious: limerence rarely lasts 6 years, and in any event, it sounds like it was a mutual physical and emotional bond. I don’t know how you get past that. Did any of your friends who reconciled after infidelity experience such a longstanding betrayal ?

This. 🖕🏻

He says all the right things that sound good, and uses sus terminology like “limerence”, or I was just in the “affair fog”.  Yeah, I doubt it, buddy. 
 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

7 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I have to agree. And even if he manages to stay away from this woman, or other OW, he carried on a 6 year parallel relationship with her while you were married. (Perhaps much longer - do you know for sure?)  Everything he has said about it being limerence is suspicious: limerence rarely lasts 6 years, and in any event, it sounds like it was a mutual physical and emotional bond. I don’t know how you get past that. Did any of your friends who reconciled after infidelity experience such a longstanding betrayal ?

He was able to give her up because his children demanded it. He will stay away. It is my understanding limerence can take hold for years. He never had an intention to leave so was able to keep everything in the infatuation stage with her. It never progressed beyond. It has finally hit him what he did and the reality of losing his life shook him to his core. 
 

No, my friends who recovered from infidelity did not have such a long standing betrayals in their circumstances but have given me good advice with how to proceed with things. For example asking certain questions to avoid trickle truth. I am strongly considering a post nup against any future infidelity after reading posts here. 

[RebeccaR]

8 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He never had an intention to leave so was able to keep everything in the infatuation stage with her.

The second half of this statement doesn’t follow from the first. This is why I think he’s gaslighting you. You may be able to keep them separate but he and this woman had a real relationship. If he was honest, he’d be admitting that instead of telling you it was essentially nothing.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

The second half of this statement doesn’t follow from the first. This is why I think he’s gaslighting you. You may be able to keep them separate but he and this woman had a real relationship. If he was honest, he’d be admitting that instead of telling you it was essentially nothing.

He did admit they told each other love you throughout. Until he was away from her for an extended period and getting IC, he is thought it was love. He says he no realizes that what they had was not real love because it was a fantasy world. 

[BaileyB]

20 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He never had an intention to leave so was able to keep everything in the infatuation stage with her. It never progressed beyond.

If that’s what he is telling you and that’s what you chose to believe, you are both minimizing the relationship that he shared with this other woman. 

He had a concurrent relationship with this woman for many years of your marriage -
 

5 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He says he no realizes that what they had was not real love because it was a fantasy world. 

This is true, affairs are very much based on fantasy which is part of what makes them so intoxicating. But a man doesn’t stay involved with a woman for six years unless he has strong feelings for the woman. 

 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

13 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

If that’s what he is telling you and that’s what you chose to believe, you are both minimizing the relationship that he shared with this other woman. 

He had a concurrent relationship with this woman for many years of your marriage -
 

This is true, affairs are very much based on fantasy which is part of what makes them so intoxicating. But a man doesn’t stay involved with a woman for six years unless he has strong feelings for the woman. 

 

Ok so assuming you are correct, which considering my husband is a proven liar is a complete possibility, if he loves her but it has ended and he is actively working to get over her, that love will become a memory no? Like the memories of your first love or any other past relationship. The action of staying in our relationship for now shows the love for his family is more worthwhile. 

[BrinnM]

7 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

if he loves her but it has ended and he is actively working to get over her, that love will become a memory no? Like the memories of your first love or any other past relationship. The action of staying in our relationship for now shows the love for his family is more worthwhile. 

Sure, you can look at it that way.

You could also look at it from a different angle: He’s doing something he doesn’t want to, because he feels coerced into doing it. If he could choose freely, he’d be somewhere else already. This is, IMO, what’s going on here, and I would find it extremely difficult to stay with somebody under these circumstances. I want somebody to be with me, because he wants to be with me, not because he thinks he’s got no other options at the moment. I would find that extremely painful. I would resent the man, and the man would probably resent me, too. But I also understand your thinking process, when you say you want to wait it out for financial and other reasons. I get that completely. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

11 minutes ago, BrinnM said:

Sure, you can look at it that way.

You could also look at it from a different angle: He’s doing something he doesn’t want to, because he feels coerced into doing it. If he could choose freely, he’d be somewhere else already. This is, IMO, what’s going on here, and I would find it extremely difficult to stay with somebody under these circumstances. I want somebody to be with me, because he wants to be with me, not because he thinks he’s got no other options at the moment. I would find that extremely painful. I would resent the man, and the man would probably resent me, too. But I also understand your thinking process, when you say you want to wait it out for financial and other reasons. I get that completely. 

I think if I thought about it just from that angle I couldn’t survive.  Instead I believe he can choose freely though. He doesn’t have to chose to work on our marriage. Yet he does. Ahhh so much for therapy this week. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Hopefullyjaded9
Change

[Will am I]

1 hour ago, BrinnM said:

it’s funny how often men who do well financially engage in affairs; they can just get away with it more easily

I think this may be a very real thing. In that sense it wouldn’t be that different from workplace theft or fraud, white collar workers with certain levels of authority are overrepresented in the statistics.

More opportunity, less checks and balances?

[BrinnM]

2 minutes ago, Will am I said:

More opportunity, less checks and balances?

Yes, definitely both. 

[mark clemson]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:25 AM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

It was a split self affair according to our MC. 

Here's something on split self affairs from a site called therapyroute.com for you to think about.

The author is apparently: "Temple Obike is a licensed marriage and family therapist, speaker, author and psychotherapist who has counselled over one thousand, two hundred clients..."
 

Quote

 

Affair Type 5 – The Split Self Affair

This affair type signals the marriage has very serious problems because the marriage issues aren’t usually the reason the affair happens but instead, there is something stopping the cheating spouse from even beginning to work on the marriage. These types usually have affairs with people who give them a lot more than sex but instead provide validation, making them feel special and needed. Individuals who have these types of affairs have a 50% chance of either exiting their marriage or fixing their marriage.

These affairs begin from places of great value. It begins from religious congregations, the office, school, with people paid to exchange value (nannies, prostitutes, personal assistants etc). If your spouse's affair partner is a man/woman who is younger than them, a man/woman with a challenging childhood or someone who works under your partner then it’s beyond sex but a need for something that isn’t present in the marriage. Reverse engineering these points is one of the therapists best shots at saving the marriage.

Advice: When you begin to develop feelings for someone who reports to or works for you, that isn't a bad thing if you aren't in a relationship or married. However, if any of the mentioned scenarios are existing, this signals that your relationship is undergoing a tumultuous period. My advice is that you go back and work on your relationship or seek out help from a therapist or marriage counsellor.

 

 

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

These types usually have affairs with people who give them a lot more than sex but instead provide validation, making them feel special and needed.

This is basically what we have been saying, and why the relationship lasted for it years. He was getting a lot out of this relationship - 

I’m curious, and perhaps I’ve just missed it, is the OW still married? Did she reconcile with her husband or did they divorce? 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

6 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

This is basically what we have been saying, and why the relationship lasted for it years. He was getting a lot out of this relationship - 

I’m curious, and perhaps I’ve just missed it, is the OW still married? Did she reconcile with her husband or did they divorce? 

I don’t know for certain. Her husband and I spoke after finding out about them again and he said he was divorcing her but that was right after DDay. On social media she is still listed as married and has a picture with him. My husband said he didn’t know and didn’t care what they were doing when I asked in the past. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

27 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Here's something on split self affairs from a site called therapyroute.com for you to think about.

The author is apparently: "Temple Obike is a licensed marriage and family therapist, speaker, author and psychotherapist who has counselled over one thousand, two hundred clients..."
 

 

Some of this description seems to fit and some is off. The OW was not significantly younger or wasn’t a subordinate. The therapist did call his a split self affair though. This is a lot of his IC work.  

[NuevoYorko]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:03 AM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

 

He does still have a lot of good qualities. He is intelligent, hard working, generous, a good father, etc.. but he is also a liar and a cheat. Does that negate all the good things? 

Not necessarily, it's up to you.   I do think you need to encompass "liar and cheat" into the package of what you are accepting when you remain in your marriage to this man.  There is no indication that he would change.   You might need to be the one who changes - to accepting a non-monogamous marriage.

There are plenty of cultures and individual marriages where one partner "turns the other cheek" to their spouse's dalliances.   

Edited February 18, 2023 by NuevoYorko

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

My husband said he didn’t know and didn’t care what they were doing when I asked in the past. 

I’m sorry, but how can he, and how can you, not know this? 

How long ago were they first discovered? And, how long did they continue together after that discovery? Do you mean to say that he never asked her what happened with her marriage after that first discovery?

No, not all of it fits but many things do fit very much. For example, it was a long term affair, very serious and very emotional. He was essentially leading a double life for six years. The focus was not as much on the marriage as it was the children, the family, the lifestyle, the fact that he is seen as a devoted family man. After all, this is essentially why he has ended the affair and returned to the family. It sounds very much like what we have been discussing. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by BaileyB

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He was able to give her up because his children demanded it. He will stay away.

That certainty is completely unfounded.

My experience is more associated with substance abuse in the family but the state of mind of the "user" is no different from the cheating spouse in an affair situation.

EVERYTHING is at stake and the user knows it, but their drive to "go out" can be all-powerful.  People lose their families, businesses, lives, knowing exactly the risks while they're taking them, ALL THE TIME.  And often after years of clean / sober living.

Chronic cheaters are no different.

If your husband is actually saying things like "I can give her up because my kids demand it, I will stay away," that would actually be a big old RED FLAG and nothing to feel comforted about.  That type of sentiment / statement shows that the person does not acknowledge the profundity of their own weakness in a specific situation.