Date Rape

[TaurusTerp]

I don't know Meerkat. Perhaps it's a compulsion you have.

 

 

 

I wonder how "figurative" all the other weird and wonderful examples of rudeness and bizarre female behaviour you've provided on this board are.

 

On the other hand, like does attract like. If you have such a steady parade of monstrous women traipsing in and out of your life, start looking closer to home for the reason.

 

It's pretty classless for you to be attacking sanskrit rather than his arguments, and rather sad.

 

I do hope nobody stoops to your level and picks through your 3,300 posts for retaliation fodder.

[sanskrit]

I wonder how "figurative" all the other weird and wonderful examples of rudeness and bizarre female behaviour you've provided on this board are.

 

Couldn't make that stuff up, and have absolutely no reason to. Want more? Could come up with dozens, if not hundreds of other examples of women's wacky behavior over "consent" and "first sex." And that is just from me, not the dozens or hundreds more examples from my friends experiences. Don't like that women have a hand in the utterly confused state of modern men on the issue? that women are to blame for lots of the "rape" problem? Tough.

[tami-chan]

It's pretty classless for you to be attacking sanskrit rather than his arguments, and rather sad.

 

I do hope nobody stoops to your level and picks through your 3,300 posts for retaliation fodder.

 

Well..it's really quite interesting how some of these people get very personal...it's like, "focus on the arguments'! But nothing can beat their favorite way of "shutting you up"==== the use of the word "troll"...it's priceless!

[Taramere]

It's pretty classless for you to be attacking sanskrit rather than his arguments, and rather sad.

 

I do hope nobody stoops to your level and picks through your 3,300 posts for retaliation fodder.

 

They can do what they like. What they'll find is that although I have the odd conflict with other posters, generally my exchanges with other people are friendly - and that includes people I often disagree with. It's perfectly possible for two reasonable people to disagree and to have a civilised discussion about it. Sanskrit, for all he goes on about the rules of debating, doesn't ever seem to manage that. When he and another poster disagree over something, it always seems to end with him complaining about them making ad hominem attacks on him.

 

This is a personal development board, not a circle-jerking arena. If the guy can only ever have civil discussions with people who share his perspective, and always ends up having belligerent exchanges with people who don't share it, then at some point he should be asking himself "is it really always the other person's fault, that I have so many unpleasant interactions with other people, or there something in my approach that hinders reasonable and adult discussion with people who have a different perspective to mine?"

[sanskrit]

It's perfectly possible for two reasonable people to disagree and to have a civilised discussion about it.

 

Do tell.

 

Sanskrit, for all he goes on about the rules of debating,

 

Calling out the emptiness of personal insults as an illegitimate discussion tactic has little to do with any "rules of debating," and in what other ways do I go "on and on" about such rules?

 

doesn't ever seem to manage that. When he and another poster disagree over something, it always seems to end with him complaining about them making ad hominem attacks on him.

 

You see, the irony is that if you, the insulting party, would stop your insulting ways, I wouldn't have to bring it up. And yet, that's somehow my fault?

 

always ends up having belligerent exchanges

 

I just don't seem to find much belligerence in my posts to this thread. Is -your- belligerence somehow -my- fault too? Priceless.

[tami-chan]

Perhaps the bigger question is, are we tolerant of people who argue their points with passion as we do ours? there were several people who used to posts here-some I have exchanged PMs with-who happened to do just that and their views run counter to conventional wisdom and many of them no longer posts, because some people are UNABLE to carry or sustain arguments with passion without really getting personal and petty about it. I know, I am guilty of it at times. But I never wish for them to go away, as what would a discussion forum be without people of the other side passionately arguing their POVs , too?

[elaina]

Hello Elaina~~~

 

 

Hello Tami-chan,

 

Let's examine the post, shall we?

 

 

Why sure, now what is your point for examining it? Do you still insist that it has to do with date rape?

 

Originally Posted by sanskrit

No it's not. It's the responsibility of grown adults to seek their own enjoyment, not for one gender to provide it to the other.

 

Way back in college, I had a woman in my bed who started crying when we were about to have sex. She was perfectly willing, but I stopped, not because she was apparently not enjoying things, but because I estimated she was going to be crappy in bed, and was thus undeserving of my effort.

 

Her response? "What's wrooooonnnnnnnnnnggggg?? Waaaaaaaa."

What do you think....? Do you think maybe you misunderstood or created a story in your head or maybe read another post of his? Because the "no idea what true love" response you posted was from this post. You can correct yourself in the process, if you so deem it necessary.

 

Yes, from the above post, the thought did hit me that Sanskrit does not have any idea what true love is. What do you think, that he truly loved the woman in his post? The post above, where Sansrit talks about a woman who was crying and hence he refused to have sex with her, was NOT talking about date rape. How can you come to the conclusion that it was? There was no rape involved, because neither he nor she raped the other.

 

 

 

 

Ahh...lol..but his post was a response from a previous posts-where he was I believe, making a point how many women send out conflicting signals, etc.etc..like this one, who was crying while they were making out and then got more upset when he stopped....I mean seriously, even I, got confused by what that woman wanted ! !

 

My thought about his not knowing what true love is came from understanding he had no true love for this woman he talked about.

 

 

Well, sure..but if I want to be loved in return, do you then think that I do not have any idea what true love is? That's ridiculous.

 

 

I have never said that you don't have any idea what true love is... unless you're Sanskrit?

 

I am judgng YOUR statement(it is explicitly said) ..as not cool...you are judging a person as not having any idea what true love is,..based on what? You do see the difference, don't you?

 

Your judgement is based on your opinion. My statement to Sanskrit is based on my opinion. By the way, I could care less if you judge my statement as "not cool." If however, someone I very much admired rebuked me for my statement, I would care...

 

will keep you in mind...thanks!

 

Please do.

 

Sure...but the particular post that you quoted, that I was referring to seemed really far removed from even being a "romantic relationship"....I am just confused how you were able to draw that conclusion about sanskrit not having any idea about "true love":confused:!

 

Find me a post of his (dated before this post) where he shows that he truly cares for and loves a woman and gets enjoyment out of giving her enjoyment, k?

Have a good night, elaina!

Tami

 

You too Tami

Edited October 10, 2010 by elaina

[Kamille]

I think all the posts on this thread just prove that there needs to be more and more open communication about sex and expectations between men and women. I also strongly advocate keeping dates very public and in environments that you (the woman) can control until you know the person.

 

Exactly. The stakes of rape and rape charges, false or legitimate, are too high for this topic to revert to being a simple gender war.

 

What I get from this thread is this:

 

To avoid ambiguous situations possibly leading to rape charges, people should seek active consent.

 

As has been pointed out, someone actively ripping your clothes off = active consent. Someone laying there, pretending to be tired, being unresponsive, saying "we shouldn't" is likely ambivalent about having sex and should be consulted. If asking this questions risks "ruining the mood", ask yourself, "for whom?". If the mood is ruined when sex is brought up, than sex was likely off the table from the get go. Someone who wants to have sex won't be turned off by being asked, flirtingly, : do you want me as much as I want you? Do you want to do it? Besides, don't people use condoms? How, exactly, do you put a condom on without verifying if your date wants to have sex?

 

This has the added advantage of making both parties responsible for the unfolding of events and allows the pursuer to ascertain that he or she is indeed desirable in the pursuee's eyes.

 

 

Another thing that is important, I take from the OP. This applies to learning to be assertive.

 

 

 

Protect yourself against rape

Tips to protect yourself against rape:

 

 

[*]Know what you want.

 

And I would add, have enough respect for the other person to communicate it. If what you're after is sex and nothing else, you're a bona fide ashat if you lead the person to think otherwise. If you don't want sex, than communicate it clearly.

 

I think this act of 'knowing what you want' is where some women fail to assert their boundaries properly. I can pull threads from this forum where women find themselves in secluded places without having a clear idea of what they want, ie, whether or not they want to have sex. There are women who prioritize getting a man to like them and also women who believe that in order to keep a man, they have to show them that they're not prudes, all this while saying they don't want to have sex.

 

This leads to: Match your "wants" with your actions.

 

[*] Avoid being in secluded places with a man you hardly trust.

 

Now, in my experience, most men are actually gentlemen and prefer to have sex with someone who is overtly into having sex with them. In other words, most men respect signs and signals that a woman isn't ready to have sex. But, as this thread proves, there are men who think their first obligation is their own pleasure and that, short of screaming "I said no" and "pushing someone off", a woman's signals can be ignored if she accepts being in a secluded place with a man. As, in my experience, you can never tell a rotten apple from the fresh off the tree golden delicious, it is better to avoid being in a secluded space with a man until you clearly know you want to have sex with him.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Kamille

[that girl]

You don't think men who have lots of sexual experience don't also have the most hilarious stories about the crazy antics of women with respect to consent? Interesting thought process that.

There is a difference between having crazy stories and bragging about treating people poorly while categorizing an entire gender as crazy and irrational.

 

People who have great luck with the opposite sex don't dislike the opposite sex.

 

Recall that I only brought up my personal experiences after you and others refused to engage in a rational discussion of the thread topic, and instead made things personal.

That is a blatant lie.

 

Elaina started a thread about how women could protect themselves from rape and you immediately jumped in to say

 

Date rape is the subject of some of the most doctored "research" in misandrist circles.

 

20-50% of all rape claims are false. The saddest thing about this doctored research and the high percentage of false claims is that it detracts from real victims of real rape.

 

You posted several sources, all of which I went through and posted detailed critiques of, some positive and some negative. The research does not support your belief that rape is greatly exaggerated and I recommend that anyone who is interested check out pages 2-4 of this thread and the accompanying links.

 

I then asked

Sanskrit- why do you feel the need to post about false reports? Elaina started this thread to discuss ways women could try to prevent rape and you immediately jumped in to say how "misandrist" rape research is and claim that 25% of reported rapes are false.

 

Even if you think false reports are rampant, why don't you have some concern for women who are worried about being raped?

 

Your response was:

Because an alternate POV on the actual prevalence and "danger" of being date-raped in a somewhat alarmist thread on the issue is thoroughly topical, despite yours and other's efforts to "shout down" the contra POV.

which doesn't actually make any sense.

 

Even if the risk of rape is inflated (and I don't think it is), it is still worthwhile for women to try and protect themselves.

 

Then the discussion shifted to ways that men could make sure that they had consent, which you are strongly againist.

 

You interupted the rational discussion to mock the idea that men should look for ethusasitic consent

But with respect to sexual consent, adult women suddenly turn into wayward children who must be given a "coloring book" of "are you sure this is ok? perhaps you'd like to call your mommy and daddy to see what they think before you unzip my pants and grab my scary man-penis like that?"

 

It went downhill from there, with your continued mocking of anyone who suggested men should aim for consensual sex instead of just taking what they want the way women supposedly like. Even when women flat out said that they like it when a partner asks before entering you claimed it wasn't true based on your college experiences.

 

When actual women tell you what they want, you ignore them. You claim that this is what women like men to do, but really it is just misogyny.

[that girl]

Perhaps the bigger question is, are we tolerant of people who argue their points with passion as we do ours? there were several people who used to posts here-some I have exchanged PMs with-who happened to do just that and their views run counter to conventional wisdom and many of them no longer posts, because some people are UNABLE to carry or sustain arguments with passion without really getting personal and petty about it. I know, I am guilty of it at times. But I never wish for them to go away, as what would a discussion forum be without people of the other side passionately arguing their POVs , too?

When we are talking about something truly controversial like how should US/UK/etc forced handle militant forces in Afghanistan or how should we handle the economic crisis, I am all for alternative opinions.

 

But when someone starts posting that men should not look for enthusiastic sexual consent because women like aggressive men who take what they want, I am not going to extend tolerance for those views. They are frankly dangerous and frigheneing.

[elaina]

Tamichan,

 

If Sanskrit wants to address me and say why I'm wrong in my opinion concerning if he knows what true love is, that'd be the best, since neither you nor I know him (at least, I don't know him... maybe you do?) He is the best suited to handle defending himself against my opinion if he so desires, not you.

 

Exactly. The stakes of rape and rape charges, false or legitimate, are too high for this topic to revert to being a simple gender war.

 

What I get from this thread is this:

 

To avoid ambiguous situations possibly leading to rape charges, people should seek active consent.

 

As has been pointed out, someone actively ripping your clothes off = active consent. Someone laying there, pretending to be tired, being unresponsive, saying "we shouldn't" is likely ambivalent about having sex and should be consulted. If asking this questions risks "ruining the mood", ask yourself, "for whom?". If the mood is ruined when sex is brought up, than sex was likely off the table from the get go. Someone who wants to have sex won't be turned off by being asked, flirtingly, : do you want me as much as I want you? Do you want to do it? Besides, don't people use condoms? How, exactly, do you put a condom on without verifying if your date wants to have sex?

 

This has the added advantage of making both parties responsible for the unfolding of events and allows the pursuer to ascertain that he or she is indeed desirable in the pursuee's eyes.

 

 

Another thing that is important, I take from the OP. This applies to learning to be assertive.

 

 

 

And I would add, have enough respect for the other person to communicate it. If what you're after is sex and nothing else, you're a bona fide ashat if you lead the person to think otherwise. If you don't want sex, than communicate it clearly.

 

I think this act of 'knowing what you want' is where some women fail to assert their boundaries properly. I can pull threads from this forum where women find themselves in secluded places without having a clear idea of what they want, ie, whether or not they want to have sex. There are women who prioritize getting a man to like them and also women who believe that in order to keep a man, they have to show them that they're not prudes, all this while saying they don't want to have sex.

 

This leads to: Match your "wants" with your actions.

[*] Avoid being in secluded places with a man you hardly trust.

 

Now, in my experience, most men are actually gentlemen and prefer to have sex with someone who is overtly into having sex with them. In other words, most men respect signs and signals that a woman isn't ready to have sex. But, as this thread proves, there are men who think their first obligation is their own pleasure and that, short of screaming "I said no" and "pushing someone off", a woman's signals can be ignored if she accepts being in a secluded place with a man. As, in my experience, you can never tell a rotten apple from the fresh off the tree golden delicious, it is better to avoid being in a secluded space with a man until you clearly know you want to have sex with him.

 

Hello Kamille,

 

Awesome post!

 

And thanks for turning the thread back to where it's supposed to be: about avoiding date rape and help for those who have been date raped.

 

Thanks for getting us back on track!

[sanskrit]

My thought about his not knowing what true love is came from understanding he had no true love for this woman he talked about.

 

Was just going to let the rude comment you made slide, but since it has become a topic of discussion, no, of course I had no "true love" for that woman. We knew each other in college, got drunk, and hopped into bed.

 

How on earth you got from that story to the crude assertion that I don't know what love is I have no idea.

 

Find me a post of his (dated before this post) where he shows that he truly cares for and loves a woman and gets enjoyment out of giving her enjoyment, k?

 

Oh so -that's- how one determines whether or not an anonymous internet poster has experienced love? Thought this was a date rape thread?

[elaina]

Was just going to let the rude comment you made slide, but since it has become a topic of discussion, no, of course I had no "true love" for that woman. We knew each other in college, got drunk, and hopped into bed.

 

How on earth you got from that story to the crude assertion that I don't know what love is I have no idea.

 

Ah Sanskrit,

 

Good. You are best to discuss my opinion with, since it was about you.

 

What brought the idea to my head was the combination of the following:

 

1. "No it's not. It's the responsibility of grown adults to seek their own enjoyment, not for one gender to provide it to the other."

 

True love by nature isn't selfish. Your statement above totally ignores the fact that an adult who loves another wants to provide enjoyment for their partner.

 

2. Your story concerning the crying woman + the above quote of yours concerning seeking one's own enjoyment, not for one gender to provide it to the other, leads me to believe you have no idea what true love is.

 

 

Now, if you can tell me that you do truly love a woman and care for her enjoyment too and "provide enjoyment" for your partner (you don't have to see it as a "responsibility" but hopefully as a blessing), then please let me know.

 

 

Oh so -that's- how one determines whether or not an anonymous internet poster has experienced love? Thought this was a date rape thread?

 

It is, though interestingly enough, a person decided to put a story about a crying woman who he refused to have sex with in a date rape thread, as well as insisted that adults seek their own enjoyment, and are not "responsible" to provide enjoyment for the other gender... What exactly does that have to do with date rape? Just curious. It is true however than many people who rape don't care about the person they rape. I doubt they consider it their responsibilty to provide enjoyment to their victim.

 

(By the way, I acknowledge you didn't rape the crying woman or any other woman you decided to talk about in this date rape thread.)

Edited October 10, 2010 by elaina

[sanskrit]

There is a difference between having crazy stories and bragging about treating people poorly while categorizing an entire gender as crazy and irrational.

 

Restating, my personal experiences were brought in when you and others made it clear you neither wanted to read nor discuss the sources I linked, especially the Sommers article, which neither you nor anyone else has dealt with. I also linked the false rape society blog which has many examples of false rape accusations... no comment.

 

The thread is entitled "date rape" and despite your unwillingness to admit it, false rape claims, especially pertaining to campus date rapes, are very much part of the topic "date rape."

 

Recall that -I- was the one treated poorly in my examples, not the women.

 

Recall that I have never "categorized an entire gender as crazy or irrational" in this thread.

 

People who have great luck with the opposite sex don't dislike the opposite sex.

 

Now you are building castles in the air based solely on your own fallacious insults. I never said I disliked women, -you- did. And it only stands to reason that people who have more experience, good or ill, with the opposite sex generally do in fact have more bad experiences. Amazing that flies right over your head yet you still repeat the bad logic as if it is gospel.

 

Nice try at trying to lay the derail of this thread at my door, which in fact hasn't actually ever derailed from the topic of date rape. Or rather has only in my dealing with your insult-laden doctrinaire posts.

 

You simply can't stand it that there is a male pov on this issue with which you disagree. You most certainly didn't discuss all the links I posted, rather sticking to parroting the standard refutations of the Perdue and Air Force studies.

[Taramere]

Now, in my experience, most men are actually gentlemen and prefer to have sex with someone who is overtly into having sex with them. In other words, most men respect signs and signals that a woman isn't ready to have sex. But, as this thread proves, there are men who think their first obligation is their own pleasure and that, short of screaming "I said no" and "pushing someone off", a woman's signals can be ignored if she accepts being in a secluded place with a man. As, in my experience, you can never tell a rotten apple from the fresh off the tree golden delicious, it is better to avoid being in a secluded space with a man until you clearly know you want to have sex with him.

 

I think that's sound advice. I have to say that in my twenties and thirties there were often times I would meet a guy while I was out, and he would walk me home. To me, it felt rude to have someone go out of his way to make sure I got home safely, and not invite him up for a coffee so that he could get a taxi to ensure that he also got home safely (especially as I live in a cold climate). I recall reading an article that said stranger rape often happens in situations where a woman didn't want to be rude. Maybe a man offered to help her upstairs with her bags, and it felt surly to turn down the request. Or she might have been walking home, and a strange guy may have approached her and offered to walk home with her to make sure she was okay.

 

That has happened to me before (the stranger offering to walk me home) and it's a bad predicament. You tend to think that any decent guy is going to know that you just don't approach strange women like that. On the other hand, he was going the same way and he didn't want me to be nervous about him walking behind him...so he found himself in a bit of a dilemma too. We had a bit of a conversation on the way home about those dilemmas, he saw me to the door of my building and then carried on his way.

 

Like you say, thankfully most men are in fact decent people - regardless of what the things we read on the Internet might suggest to the contrary - which is why those of us who haven't always followed the rules about not letting yourself be alone with a strange man have not generally been burned by it.....but that should probably be regarded as good fortune rather than good judgement on our part, though I think in some cases instincts do kick in and tell a woman "this is a genuine, reasonable guy" or "this is a persistent, boundary-ignoring creep who I need to give a clear "get lost" message to while it's still safe to do so.

[sanskrit]

Ah Sanskrit

 

You said that you didn't think that I knew what true love is, commenting on me personally rather than any specific thing I have posted. Rather than backwards rationalizing it in an attempt to reason your way towards knowledge of a person on the net whom you do not in fact know, you should just let it drop.

[elaina]

You said that you didn't think that I knew what true love is, commenting on me personally rather than any specific thing I have posted. Rather than backwards rationalizing it in an attempt to reason your way towards knowledge of a person on the net whom you do not in fact know, you should just let it drop.

 

 

Tami-chan wouldn't let me; she asked me in a very lol way what my definition of true love is and started a discussion about it with me. Anyways, until I see otherwise where you do post in a way that shows true care about a woman, that is my honest opinion of you.

 

I am sure you have opinions of me and of other members of this forum too, regardless of whether you know the members personally or not.

 

Tami-chan considers my statement "not cool" which is fine. She is not someone whose judgement runs my world, and I'm sure you're big enough to handle someone having an opinion of you that you consider to be "not cool" too.

Edited October 10, 2010 by elaina

[elaina]

 

Like you say, thankfully most men are in fact decent people - regardless of what the things we read on the Internet might suggest to the contrary - which is why those of us who haven't always followed the rules about not letting yourself be alone with a strange man have not generally been burned by it.....but that should probably be regarded as good fortune rather than good judgement on our part, though I think in some cases instincts do kick in and tell a woman "this is a genuine, reasonable guy" or "this is a persistent, boundary-ignoring creep who I need to give a clear "get lost" message to while it's still safe to do so.

 

Agreed. Sometimes it's hard to know who to trust. I got in trouble with some friends before because I accepted a ride from a male stranger. He was a great guy (as far as I knew) and just asked me where I wanted to go and took me right there and was very polite the whole time.

 

You're right most men are fine, but yeah sometimes it's a dilemmna in understanding when to accept when someone does something nice like offering you a ride, and when to say no thanks. And poor nice guys! Many of them understand this and put themselves in dilemmnas where they want to help a woman and yet don't want to scare her at the same time.

[sanskrit]

I am sure you have opinions of me and of other members of this forum too, regardless of whether you know the members personally or not.

 

No, I don't actually. I have learned from decades on the net that people are too complex to judge merely from their posts on a forum. Now, there are certainly posters whose intellectually dishonest and fallacious posts I don't like, sure, but I do not know the people behind the keyboard.

[Taramere]

Agreed. Sometimes it's hard to know who to trust. I got in trouble with some friends before because I accepted a ride from a male stranger. He was a great guy (as far as I knew) and just asked me where I wanted to go and took me right there and was very polite the whole time.

 

You're right most men are fine, but yeah sometimes it's a dilemmna in understanding when to accept when someone does something nice like offering you a ride, and when to say no thanks. And poor nice guys! Many of them understand this and put themselves in dilemmnas where they want to help a woman and yet don't want to scare her at the same time.

 

I think I recall saying in a different thread, Elaina, that you strike me as a someone who is very keen to see the best in others. Which is a great quality, but that can also make a person vulnerable in certain situations...so I can understand your friends getting angsty about you accepting a ride from a stranger.

 

I was about to say "never accept a lift from a strange guy" but I know that when my car was stuck in snow one night and a guy came along in a 4WD I got in because basically I had no option. He equally probably felt "well you shouldn't offer lifts to women, but what am I supposed to do in a situation like this?"

 

But yeah...generally unless you're totally stranded and there really is no other option, best to turn down that offer of a lift from a stranger.

[tami-chan]

Hi Elaina..good morning!

 

now what is your point for examining it? Do you still insist that it has to do with date rape?

 

You had mentioned some things about sanskrit's story that did not exist on the post that you responded to...so 2 things are possible on why this happened, imho: 1) you are making up stories to discredit him or push your point 2) you are confused-and therefore just plainly wrong. Which is it? THAT was the point why I wanted you to examine the post again, but you chose to ignore it...I wonder why !

 

I already explain the second part and did not even think, much more INSIST it had to do with date rape...but you also ignore my explanation..oh well...

 

Yes, from the above post, the thought did hit me that Sanskrit does not have any idea what true love is. What do you think, that he truly loved the woman in his post?

 

Well, you know what? Maybe this is strange for you but many people have sex without actually "loving" the each other...it does not mean they have "no idea what true love is"...

 

The post.... where Sansrit talks about a woman who was crying and hence he refused to have sex with her, was NOT talking about date rape. How can you come to the conclusion that it was? There was no rape involved, because neither he nor she raped the other.

 

I concluded that it was about rape? are you sure about that? because I think I said that his story was pertinent because prior to that, he pointed out that women give out conflicting signal ( and this is how many dates rape accusations real or made up happen). In this particular post he gave this example of a woman who wanted to have sex with him but then started crying (jesus, I am repeating myself here...)

 

My thought about his not knowing what true love is came from understanding he had no true love for this woman he talked about.

 

Again, many people have sex with other people and there is no love shared between them. How can that mean that they have "no idea what true love" is..How do you know that?

 

I have never said that you don't have any idea what true love is... unless you're Sanskrit?

 

Did I say you said that? I simply asked you a question. You can just answer the question without deflecting it. And no, I am not sanskrit...LOL..I am way too pretty to be him, I think...and too girly to be him.... Although I would love to see a pic of him.

 

Your judgement is based on your opinion. My statement to Sanskrit is based on my opinion. By the way, I could care less if you judge my statement as "not cool." If however, someone I very much admired rebuked me for my statement, I would care..

 

You do not think he has any idea what true love is because.......? of your opinion of him....which is...? You are not making sense to me. Your opinion of him is baseless because you simply do not know him. My opinion of what you said about him is based simply on that statement because you clearly stated it.

 

Wait...you do not care about my opinion of you? But you would however, be "sad" if I did not know true love....ahmmm...are you trying to spin my wheels , here, Elaina?

 

Please do.

 

How can I do this now, given what you said above?

 

Find me a post of his (dated before this post) where he shows that he truly cares for and loves a woman and gets enjoyment out of giving her enjoyment, k?

 

Unfortunately for you, it is not my responsibility to prove to you the he has an "idea of what true love is"-as I have not made any sweeping judgment of him. I do not know him. It is, however, YOUR responsibility to prove that you made that conclusion about him based on facts.

 

Have a good Sunday, Elaina? going to church today?

 

tami

[sanskrit]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I can say I know far too many women who have turned their Monday morning quarterbacking of their decision to have sex despite the fact they didn't really want to into a convenient date rape accusation (or at least hint thereof).

 

I suspect I'll be flamed now by the females, but whatevs.

 

Thanks, it's refreshing that someone can admit that there is a problem on the other side of the date rape issue without claiming that men who speak up about it aren't necessarily discounting the seriousness of real rape.

[tami-chan]

When we are talking about something truly controversial like how should US/UK/etc forced handle militant forces in Afghanistan or how should we handle the economic crisis, I am all for alternative opinions.

 

But when someone starts posting that men should not look for enthusiastic sexual consent because women like aggressive men who take what they want, I am not going to extend tolerance for those views. They are frankly dangerous and frigheneing.

 

That girl, I understand...but we cannot silence or shut down an opposing view or any view that we perceive as "dangerous and frightening"...that is ridiculous! What could anyone on LS expressing his/her view do to you? I have news for you, there are far more (and real) dangerous materials available on the net for anyone to access...

 

Anyway,you DO know that there is a thread somewhere where women expressed lking men to be sexually aggressive, right?

 

C'mon, stop with this "dangerous and frightening", this is just a little bit too dramatic, don't you think?

[Kamille]

 

Like you say, thankfully most men are in fact decent people - regardless of what the things we read on the Internet might suggest to the contrary - which is why those of us who haven't always followed the rules about not letting yourself be alone with a strange man have not generally been burned by it.....but that should probably be regarded as good fortune rather than good judgement on our part, though I think in some cases instincts do kick in and tell a woman "this is a genuine, reasonable guy" or "this is a persistent, boundary-ignoring creep who I need to give a clear "get lost" message to while it's still safe to do so.

 

I come from a small town, where I often took it for granted that the guys in my extended circle of friends were decent. And, more often than not, they are decent. But I had 3 experiences with rotten apples that have proved it's really hard to distinguish a decent guy from a drunk, horny, I will take what I can get, guy.

 

Case number 1:

 

He walks me home, we chat, we laugh. Note, I am 21 at the time and as I said, assumed people and my extended circle were decent people. We get to my place right in the middle of an interesting discussion about philosophy. He asks if he can come in and tells me : "No funny stuff, I promise!". I know my roommate, a guy friend of mine, is in so I invite him in. It all goes downhill from there. We talk, he asks me to come sit to him, which I decline, he pulls me off the armchair I'm sitting in and starts kissing me. I don't know what to do or how to react. I start getting scared. He starts telling me that obviously I knew what was going to happen when I asked him in (Note: he's the one who asked to come in) or else am I saying I'm naive. He hints that I'm a prickteaser if I don't go along with it. He questions my character. Tells me I want it, that I shouldn't be such a prude, etc etc. He pulls me to the room, I pretend I'm suddenly ok with things but say I need to go to the washroom. Once there I lock myself in, crying. I don't hear him leave, so, after about an hour, I go check in the bedroom and see he's passed out in my bed. I go sleep on the couch. The morning after he pretends he doesn't remember anything.

 

Case number 2: this was a good friend of mine. We worked on the same student paper together and I had a huge crush on him. Again, I'm in my early 20s. One night, after the bars, we hit things off and he asks me to his place, for a drink. I say : "Just a drink right? Nothing else?" He replied, "of course". We go in we have a drink, kiss, and the next thing I know I'm pinned to the floor, saying "No, stop it, no... Eric, stop it." He didn't stop until I screamed : "Eric, I said No!", clearly coding what was going on as rape. Even then, I had to wrestle myself out of his arm. Needless to say, I never spoke to him again, never reported him and lost my position at the paper. The thing is: I thought I could trust this guy.

 

Case number 3 happened in recent years: I run into a guy I had had a consentual ONS with months prior into a bar. He sees me and officially asks me out on a date. We chat, we laugh, we have a great time. At the end of the night, he offers to walk me home. I say: "Sure you can, but I'm still heatbroken over my ex, so please know: I'm not inviting you in". He says he's ok with that. I check again, because since case 1 and 2, I have a hard rule about being in private places with guys I don't want to have sex with. He walks me home, we have a great conversation, as we always do, if it isn't that he's a bit drunk. Once we get there he asks: "I need to pee. Can I just go in to pee?" I repeat: "Ok, but no funny stuff. We're not having sex tonight". While he's in the washroom, I pour myself a glass of water. Note, I'm not drunk at this time, but he's sloshed. He walks out and as I'm drinking water, I do the polite thing and offer ask him if he wants a glass. He asks if I have anything stronger. This is when I get uneasy, and, again, hope for the belief that he's a decent guy and offer him a glass of scotch. He sits on the couch I sit on the armchair. He asks me to come sit next to him, I say no. He makes this huge argument about me being a hypocrite since I invited him in and we both know what that means. I point out I didn't invite him in. He starts putting forth arguments as to why we should have sex. I kick him out of my apartment. Considering he's 6 something, believe me, I was scared.

 

Again, I thought I could trust this last guy. Wrong again.

 

My point is: it seems I struggle to identify creeps until it is too late. I failed that test three times. I refuse to put myself in that position ever again.

[elaina]

No, I don't actually. I have learned from decades on the net that people are too complex to judge merely from their posts on a forum. Now, there are certainly posters whose intellectually dishonest and fallacious posts I don't like, sure, but I do not know the people behind the keyboard.

 

Just curious... how many decades?

 

Well, I have to say I am impressed by that. Are you sure you have no negative opinion of me?

 

What is true love to you? (since we have already derailed this thread... )or if you want I could start another one, but I am sincerley interested in your answer, and have no wish to use your answer to the quesiton what is true love to you, agianst you.

 

I am curious about what you think of the subject, since I brought it up by announcing I don't think you know what it means.