zengirl Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 Maybe because it's kind of frustrating for guys who actually do like a lot of things about these overweight girls, and would really like to date them, but they're just turned off by the lack of fitness. This is what I think the problem is. "I want to date you, BUT. . . ." is lame. I don't ever look at a guy and think, "Well, if he changed X, I'd date him," unless we're talking (a) Guy is taken, (b) Guy had recent emotional trauma that he will naturally recover from and/or is on the rebound, © Guy doesn't currently date for real relationships, but is young enough that it might evolve with time. And even in a,b,c, I don't get angry about it or give it any thought. You don't want to date someone as they are? Don't date them. Really. That's the absolute best course of action. Don't tell them how to change to be dateable to you (unless they ask, but how needy and weird is that?). Don't get angry at them for not being dateable to you. Just don't date them, or think about dating them. The end.
SpanksTheMonkey Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 (edited) I think most people can distinguish 15 from 50. Unless someone has an extremely petite frame 10 or even 15 extra isn't going to be a deal breaker for most men. 50 is 5x as much as 10 and more than 3x 15. You would be quite surprised at the pics of women some men have called "fat" right here on LS I think its more common then you think Maybe because it's kind of frustrating for guys who actually do like a lot of things about these overweight girls, and would really like to date them, but they're just turned off by the lack of fitness. They can't openly complain about it because the woman will get "hurt" and offended, but even worse, with attitudes that are expressed by a lot of these women, the men are supposed to "accept them for who they are" and they don't feel any need to get into better shape. Then the guys get accused by the overweight women of being "shallow" for wanting to date more attractive women. It's a no win situation for the guys. Why dose it have to be frustrating? I don't look at a bald man and say god dam it if he would just grow some dam hair ide be able to date him! I mean there are so many hair products out their for men its a moot point. Other then men being whining babys its them basikly haveing a fit and stamping their feet on the ground like a child cause they can't have something they want grow up! already Why do so many women want to make this issue about everything EXCEPT that these women are fat and that being overweight is unattractive to most people? It would be so much simpler if you ladies would simply acknowledge "Yes I can see why lots of guys would prefer to date slender hot sexy chicks rather than sluggish obese nasty resentful fatties. Instead of blaming the men who want to logically enough date the hotties, why don't we simply counsel the fatties to get off their butts and lose the weight." Gee--doing it that way means the fatties have to take responsibility for being fat and actually do something about it rather than direct their collective ire at men for preferring more attractive women. Why do I have to acknowledge something I don't fully believe in just because you do? I don't believe that overweight people are completely unattractive to EVERYONE. I've seen the dating sites with hundreds of men looking for overweight women. So it is possible just because some in sociality may not like it and thats fully their right. Doesn't mean that no one dose now judging from the overly nasty attack im guessing that I may have hit some sort of nerve there oh well sorry about that I do think there needs to be some counseling going on but not of overweight people No, they show that they're observant of the obvious and discriminating. Your position which is a common one is actually ridiculous. A conniesuer of wine wants the best highest quality wine possible. A gourmet wants the best prime filet mignon not ground chuck. A connieseu of women wants the best available. Obese women are physically unattractive and psychologically unattractive because of their frequent insistence on blaming their problems on everyone but themselves leading to them never doing anything about it. How is my position ridiculous? ive said I don't believe men who don't want to date overweight women should be made to feel bad in any way. Ive said overweight women shouldn't expect to be admired the same as people who keep themselves fit. The only other things ive said is that there are men who actually like overweight women. And that overweight people in general deserve the same basic human right of respect given that they show the same of course. If you disagree with that then perhaps the prob lies with you not me after all Edited August 14, 2010 by SpanksTheMonkey
SpanksTheMonkey Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 This is what I think the problem is. "I want to date you, BUT. . . ." is lame. I don't ever look at a guy and think, "Well, if he changed X, I'd date him," unless we're talking (a) Guy is taken, (b) Guy had recent emotional trauma that he will naturally recover from and/or is on the rebound, © Guy doesn't currently date for real relationships, but is young enough that it might evolve with time. And even in a,b,c, I don't get angry about it or give it any thought. You don't want to date someone as they are? Don't date them. Really. That's the absolute best course of action. Don't tell them how to change to be dateable to you (unless they ask, but how needy and weird is that?). Don't get angry at them for not being dateable to you. Just don't date them, or think about dating them. The end. Exactly good post zen...
that girl Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 ive said is that there are men who actually like overweight women. And that overweight people in general deserve the same basic human right of respect given that they show the same of course. If you disagree with that then perhaps the prob lies with you not me after all This would be fine except you also said guys would prefer to date slender hot sexy chicks rather than sluggish obese nasty resentful fatties. Which assumes that someone who is overweight is a terrible person.
SpanksTheMonkey Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 This would be fine except you also said Which assumes that someone who is overweight is a terrible person. That was said by 2 different people that girl the1st was me the other was interceptor I think your confused my words are in bold usually underneath what the other person said.
InceptorsRule Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 This is what I think the problem is. "I want to date you, BUT. . . ." is lame. Why? What is so hard to understand about a guy basically liking a girl for her personality enough to actually tell her he'd date her if she lost some weight? What is this objection so many people have to the notion that people who are in better shape are more attractive romantic partners? Let's forget about the weight for a minute. If a girl told me she would want to date me except I have dandruff, I would darn well get Head and Shoulders and start using it. Because even if she was lying to me about ever wanting to date me, and the dandruff was just her "excuse," I STILL HAVE A DANDRUFF PROBLEM that needs to be addressed. It's the same with the overweight chicks. You're putting all the focus on the guy who points out that she's overweight and they find it unattractive. Even if that guy didn't really want to date her, it's an objective flaw in her appearance that is correctible. It's the same thing with the dandruff or any other similar issue. I don't ever look at a guy and think, "Well, if he changed X, I'd date him," If so it's because you have hard boundaries and automatically rule guys out who don't meet your criteria w/o even giving them a chance for a date if they're willing to improve things. How is your way more fair? unless we're talking (a) Guy is taken, (b) Guy had recent emotional trauma that he will naturally recover from and/or is on the rebound, © Guy doesn't currently date for real relationships, but is young enough that it might evolve with time. And even in a,b,c, I don't get angry about it or give it any thought. It seems to me you've given it quite a bit of thought. So, tell me, how fat does a guy have to be before you're unwilling to date him? Please don't tell me you prefer fat guys to fit, in shape (not muscle bound) guys. You don't want to date someone as they are? Don't date them. LOL, what woman gets into a relationship with a guy and doesn't find things she wants to start changing about him? If you're saying that's who you are, then you're one of the few. You're really not being truthful with any of this, you've argued yourself into a corner and can't get out now. Really. That's the absolute best course of action. Don't tell them how to change to be dateable to you (unless they ask, but how needy and weird is that?). Don't get angry at them for not being dateable to you. Just don't date them, or think about dating them. The end. LOL. Right. Women never try to change the men they date. C'mon I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion here.
InceptorsRule Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 How is my position ridiculous? ive said I don't believe men who don't want to date overweight women should be made to feel bad in any way. Then what's your point. Ive said overweight women shouldn't expect to be admired the same as people who keep themselves fit. So again what's the point. Who are you arguing with, it can't be me. Why do you keep responding to my posts if you agree with me. The only other things ive said is that there are men who actually like overweight women. Of course there are men who like overweight women, because overweight women have many fine qualities to be liked and loved for aside from how much they do or don't tip the scales at. Like everyone else, right? The real question is whether the men who like an overweight woman like her in spite of her weight, or because of it (I believe I brought this up earlier). If because of it, then the guy is a chubby chaser/fat fetishist, which is unhealthy. If, as is the case in the vast majority of cases, such as typical case of the married guy who really loves his wife but she put on a lot of weight after getting married, are you saying it would not IMPROVE the relationship, sexually, emotionally, and otherwise, if she just put some effort into things and lost the darn weight. And that overweight people in general deserve the same basic human right of respect given that they show the same of course. If you disagree with that then perhaps the prob lies with you not me after all Since most significantly overweight people, I'm talking habitually, long term, are the way they are due to having significant behavioral and/or emotional problems, no, they are not necessarily automatically worthy of "respect" in the sense that I think you mean.
zengirl Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 Why? What is so hard to understand about a guy basically liking a girl for her personality enough to actually tell her he'd date her if she lost some weight? What is this objection so many people have to the notion that people who are in better shape are more attractive romantic partners? Some of it ties into my personal philosophy that Happiness in life is about Acceptance. Acceptance of the way things are. That doesn't mean you cannot try to change yourself or your life, but changing other people directly is futile and generally unkind. Some if it is simply that it's impolite and mean-spirited. Some of it is that it's selfish. You're upset that this person isn't someone YOU would want to date because of this "flaw" you see. They aren't fitting the purpose YOU want them to fit (being dateable) and so you now see them as an object that isn't fulfilling it's proper role. That girl is great! She should be dateable! Why can't she lose weight! She's stopped being a person, and she's started being something in your mind that she isn't. It's gross. Let her be. Let's forget about the weight for a minute. If a girl told me she would want to date me except I have dandruff, I would darn well get Head and Shoulders and start using it. Because even if she was lying to me about ever wanting to date me, and the dandruff was just her "excuse," I STILL HAVE A DANDRUFF PROBLEM that needs to be addressed. What if you had dandruff because you had psoriasis, and your whole life you'd known you had psoriasis and tried many solutions, but none of them completely worked. And people kept randomly telling you that you had dandruff and your life would be better if you didn't (like you don't know this!) without you asking. It's different if someone is just clueless and asking for help. If someone asks me, "Hey, how can I be more dateable?" I'll totally give them an answer. But if they don't, it's none of my damn business. If so it's because you have hard boundaries and automatically rule guys out who don't meet your criteria w/o even giving them a chance for a date if they're willing to improve things. How is your way more fair? My way treats them as the people they are with the qualities -- good and bad -- they have. If they decide to change themselves, I don't want it to be because I've objectified them in my mind and convinced them that they need to fulfill some role for me. I expect acceptance in a relationship and I give it. Now, there are habits and actions one has to discuss with a partner sometimes -- they hurt our feelings by accident, they develop issues within the relationship, etc -- but even then, I refuse to approach it as a "Change this for me!" thing. I share my feelings and why I'm being hurt/bothered by it, sure, at that point, but I don't expect anybody to change for me. It seems to me you've given it quite a bit of thought. So, tell me, how fat does a guy have to be before you're unwilling to date him? Please don't tell me you prefer fat guys to fit, in shape (not muscle bound) guys. I don't know, as it's not a real scaling off point. I will say that I tend to date 2 types of guys: guys around 5'8''-5'10'' who are built like compacts (maybe toned, maybe average, maybe it changes depending on their mood towards the gym any given month) or wiry, lanky, tall fellows. I've dated men who were very fit---a yoga instructor was the fittest---but never muscly gymrat type guys. I don't like the look or the mindset/time requirements that go with it. I do like fellows who are active and want to climb a mountain or go river rafting with me. I like to eat organic and very healthy and tend to like the same in a fellow. In pounds? I've absolutely no idea. I tend to just look at people and assess whether they are attractive or not, rather than pick apart individual qualities, though I can spot trends in qualities I like or don't like. I think a lot about everything. In the world. So, it's always going to sound like I thought a lot about it. LOL, what woman gets into a relationship with a guy and doesn't find things she wants to start changing about him? Me. Probably some others too. It's way less frustrating. I mean, I have dated fellows and seen things that weren't my favorite. For instance, I dated a smoker who was trying to quit when I started and relapsed. I don't love smoking. And he relapsed a lot. But I never argued with him or tried to change him. I did praise him when he accomplished goals (Re: quitting), but he had to genuinely want to do those things. I did ask that he not smoke inside, around me, except in already smoky places (bars, etc) but that's a health issue. If you're saying that's who you are, then you're one of the few. You're really not being truthful with any of this, you've argued yourself into a corner and can't get out now. I'm totally being truthful. LOL. Right. Women never try to change the men they date. I'm sure sometimes they do. I'm equally sure it's a bad idea. Especially before you've even invested a moment into dating the person. Then, it is literally nonsensical.
SpanksTheMonkey Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 (edited) Since most significantly overweight people, I'm talking habitually, long term, are the way they are due to having significant behavioral and/or emotional problems, no, they are not necessarily automatically worthy of "respect" in the sense that I think you mean. I'm sorry but that is a totally twisted heartless way to think every one deserves basic respect not admiration that is different and earned in this life. Who are you to decide who is a worthy human being and who isent? So let me get this right in your eyes people who have long term significant emotional probs don't count as worthy humans? You do realize that discounts prob more then half this forum alone do you even know how that makes you sound? Edited August 14, 2010 by SpanksTheMonkey
SpanksTheMonkey Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 It's the same with the overweight chicks. You're putting all the focus on the guy who points out that she's overweight and they find it unattractive. Even if that guy didn't really want to date her, it's an objective flaw in her appearance that is correctible. It's the same thing with the dandruff or any other similar issue. In your eyes its a flaw in others its not hey guess what thats your opinion and thats not wrong/shallow at all.What you seam to fail or refuse to see is were it becomes wrong/shallow when you are openly rude or try to force your views on others LOL. Right. Women never try to change the men they date. There are things about my partner that drive me nuts would I try to change him? No whats the point thats how he was before I started dating him and its not my place to change any one im not god C'mon I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion here. People are but when we don't agree you just keep trying to force it at us
InceptorsRule Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 Some of it ties into my personal philosophy that Happiness in life is about Acceptance. Acceptance of the way things are. OK but acceptance of the way things are requires acknowledging the reality of the way things are. You know what a zen master would say, right? Let's say an obese man climbs the mountain to see the wise Zen master. The obese man finally gets to the top. The Zen master is sitting on a rock doing calligraphy. Zen master gets irritated and says to the obese man: "What do you want? I'm busy doing calligraphy. Why do you think I'm up on this moutain? I want some peace and quiet! Oy vey!" "Oh wise zen master. I have traveled thousands of miles to learn your wisdom. I have been grossly obese all my life. What is the secret to solving my problem?" Zen master: "Stop eating so much fat boy. Have a nice day." Because zen master knows that true "acceptance" of life requires acknowledgment of reality. And that is what this WHOLE "debate" or "discussion" is really all about. Please don't make the mistake of confusing "acceptance" of reality, of what is, with passivity and non-action. "Acceptance" would mean recognition that obesity is NOT attractive, and that it CAN be changed by most people with a reasonable exercise of self discipline and self control. "Non acceptance" is pretending that obesity does not affect attractiveness and that people who point it out are somehow evil or bad. If a zen master happens to find himself standing on train tracks with a locomotive headed his way, does "acceptance" imply that he must remain there and allow the train to run him over? I don't think so. I think "acceptance" means that in FACT there IS a train coming and if he doesn't want to die he'd better get off the tracks. Denial of reality, non-acceptance, would be: "Train? What train? I don't hear any train coming." That doesn't mean you cannot try to change yourself or your life, but changing other people directly is futile and generally unkind. If someone is standing on the train tracks living in a dream world then it would be severely unkind not to shout at them that they need to get off the tracks and if necessary push them off the tracks. Some if it is simply that it's impolite and mean-spirited. Attributing motives behind an individual's correct observation of reality does not change the reality, regardless of whether the attribution happens to be correct or incorrect. A good example would be when a betrayed spouse decides to disclose an affair to the other betrayed spouse. What is the motive? It could be a sincere desire that the other spouse not remain in the dark; or it could be to embarass the cheaters. Different motives--one "kind," one "unkind"-- same action, same objective reality that the disclosure was a result of finding out about the affair. Some of it is that it's selfish. You're upset that this person isn't someone YOU would want to date because of this "flaw" you see. They aren't fitting the purpose YOU want them to fit (being dateable) and so you now see them as an object that isn't fulfilling it's proper role. A person's subjective motive for accurately disclosing an objective truth does not change what that truth is. See above example. Attacking the motive is a way of evading the issue, which is: the obesity. That girl is great! She should be dateable! Why can't she lose weight! She's stopped being a person, and she's started being something in your mind that she isn't. It's gross. Let her be. If you truly mean what you say about "acceptance," and what you mean by that is that an obese person needs to "accept" their obesity, then that means they have to accept the criticism they receive as a result of their obesity. You can't have it both ways zengirl--proclaim a philosophy of "acceptance" of what "life brings you" but pick and choose to accept only the pleasant stuff, the delusional good-vibes stuff. If I accept my obesity then I must also accept the effect it has on others. I must accept their expression of their opinion. What if you had dandruff because you had psoriasis, and your whole life you'd known you had psoriasis and tried many solutions, but none of them completely worked. Then I have to put that much more effort into the problem to try to solve it. You're implying that if a problem is exceptionally difficult "acceptance" means you just give up. No, it means you "accept" that you have a difficult situation, not try to pretend it doesn't exist or that it shouldn't matter to the people. If I can't solve it, my inability to solve the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist or doesn't matter. It does. That's what "acceptance" really means. And people kept randomly telling you that you had dandruff and your life would be better if you didn't (like you don't know this!) without you asking. I would thank them for being so honest with me. It's different if someone is just clueless and asking for help. If someone asks me, "Hey, how can I be more dateable?" I'll totally give them an answer. But if they don't, it's none of my damn business. Presumably these conversations are coming up in potential dating situations, but even if not, so what of it? I thought you favored "acceptance." That would mean you would counsel that fat people not get so riled up when randoms make fun of them for being fat. Wouldn't it? My way treats them as the people they are with the qualities -- good and bad -- they have. If they decide to change themselves, I don't want it to be because I've objectified them in my mind and convinced them that they need to fulfill some role for me. Too much jargon/psychobabble here. My way is much simpler than yours. Observe what "is" and don't try to deny it. Obesity is unattractive to most people. Most obese people can increase their level of attraction by eating better, eating less, and exercising more. If they do these things they will be less fat, more fit, and happier. Nothing I have said in the above paragraph is false. It is all true and it is all subject to objective verification. It does not depend upon my "motive" for saying it and it does not depend upon your opinion of my motive for saying it. I "accept" the reality of the above set of statements. Do you? I expect acceptance in a relationship and I give it. Now, there are habits and actions one has to discuss with a partner sometimes -- they hurt our feelings by accident, they develop issues within the relationship, etc -- but even then, I refuse to approach it as a "Change this for me!" thing. I share my feelings and why I'm being hurt/bothered by it, sure, at that point, but I don't expect anybody to change for me. Again, your subjective motive for requesting some kind of change in a relationship is interesting but it is beside the point. You are requesting a change and it doesn't matter why. Let's use something easy: "You always leave the toilet seat up. I want you to start putting it down." What's your motive? Doesn't make a difference, because you want the toilet seat down. Could be because it offends your sense of feminism. Could be cause you don't want Fluffy to jump in by accident. Doesn't matter. I don't know, as it's not a real scaling off point. I will say that I tend to date 2 types of guys: guys around 5'8''-5'10'' who are built like compacts (maybe toned, maybe average, maybe it changes depending on their mood towards the gym any given month) or wiry, lanky, tall fellows. I've dated men who were very fit---a yoga instructor was the fittest---but never muscly gymrat type guys. I don't like the look or the mindset/time requirements that go with it. I do like fellows who are active and want to climb a mountain or go river rafting with me. I like to eat organic and very healthy and tend to like the same in a fellow. Translation: you don't date fat boys. For all your gyrations about "acceptance" and such the bottom line is that YOU don't find out of shape men to be attractive. "Acceptance" means you "accept" what you know to be true: Fat men are not attractive to zengirl. There, see how easy and simple it is when you just learn to "accept" what is, instead of spending all this time and effort dancing around it? In pounds? I've absolutely no idea. I tend to just look at people and assess whether they are attractive or not, rather than pick apart individual qualities, though I can spot trends in qualities I like or don't like. I think a lot about everything. In the world. So, it's always going to sound like I thought a lot about it. More words. As I noted above, your motive doesn't change the basic fact that. You. Don't. Date. Fatties. Because. Fat. Is. Unattractive. Me. Probably some others too. It's way less frustrating. I mean, I have dated fellows and seen things that weren't my favorite. For instance, I dated a smoker who was trying to quit when I started and relapsed I don't love smoking. And he relapsed a lot. But I never argued with him or tried to change him. I did praise him when he accomplished goals (Re: quitting), but he had to genuinely want to do those things. I did ask that he not smoke inside, around me, except in already smoky places (bars, etc) but that's a health issue. I'm totally being truthful. Yes you'd even rather date someone with the disgusting and deadly habit of smoking. than. fat. boys. I'm sure sometimes they do. I'm equally sure it's a bad idea. Especially before you've even invested a moment into dating the person. Then, it is literally nonsensical.
InceptorsRule Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 I'm sorry but that is a totally twisted heartless way to think every one deserves basic respect not admiration that is different and earned in this life. Do you realize spanksthemonkey that the above phrase is a pure statement of opinion on your part? Yet you state it as if it is not only a fact, but an irrefutable, objective fact, rather than purely an opinion. As a result of my disagreement with your opinion, you gratuitously call me "totally twisted and heartless" which I am not, therefore immediately contradicting your own statement that "every one deserves basic respect" by not granting it to me. So not only is your statement above a pure statement of opinion, you actually negated your own opinion in the process of stating it, by not treating ME with "basic respect." I am coming at this whole topic purely objectively. You are not, you are coming at it in a completely emotional manner. It's like with zen girl's numerous posts going all over the place. But when she finally admits HER dating preferences it's only with physically fit guys, not fat men. This type of denial of reality and outright hypocrisy IS the problem. As long as people who are obese keep telling themselves it's not a problem, they will never resolve it. Not the weight; not the relationship issues; not the psychological or emotional issues. The key to unlocking all this is simple objective fact and honesty. People who have options generally prefer to date physically fit people, not obese people. Physically fit people are generally more active, more productive, and happier than obese people. Physically fit people have more dating options than obese people, all other things being equal. Finally obesity is one of those things that is largely behavioral and thus can be changed by using behavioral modification principles. So something CAN be done about it. The "problem" can be SOLVED. Many of life's problems can't be easily solved. Overweight can be. EASILY. In the time that it takes to type of posts on the internet explaining why being obese doesn't matter, you could burn off a couple of hundred calories on a treadmill. Do that every day and problem solved, for most people. But they'd rather argue. Complain. Blame the messengers. Gripe. Who are you to decide who is a worthy human being and who isent? You called me "twisted" and "heartless" remember? You're the one doing all the judging of people's "worthiness." I never said anyone who was obese wasn't a "worthy human being" (whatever that's supposed to mean?) So let me get this right in your eyes people who have long term significant emotional probs don't count as worthy humans? LOL, why are you so concerned about what I think? Why does it matter to you so much? You do realize that discounts prob more then half this forum alone do you even know how that makes you sound? I think it makes me sound "rational." Why? How do you think it makes me sound?
zengirl Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 I am coming at this whole topic purely objectively. You are not, you are coming at it in a completely emotional manner. Technically, you're not. You've said it bothers you when weight renders someone undateable. It's like with zen girl's numerous posts going all over the place. But when she finally admits HER dating preferences it's only with physically fit guys, not fat men. This type of denial of reality and outright hypocrisy IS the problem. As long as people who are obese keep telling themselves it's not a problem, they will never resolve it. Not the weight; not the relationship issues; not the psychological or emotional issues. Finally admits? Man, I've said freely here and elsewhere that I don't date large guys, fat guys, or gymrats. This is not a secret. I don't go making posts about it because that would be rude and asinine. I don't pretend to know their character because of their weight. I don't suggest that no one will ever love them or will only be settling for them because of their weight. They just haven't been my cuppa. Most people are perfectly okay with that. Those that aren't, I'm sorry to offend, but I see no reason to hide a preference. However, I think it's perfectly understandable to be offensive when someone drives-by about your fatness or tries to cast aspersions about you or makes assumptions about your relationships. Physically fit people have more dating options than obese people, all other things being equal. First: This thread is about aesthetics, not obesity. Second: Duh. Do you go around pointing out the sky is blue too? Or telling every bald fellow you see that he's bald? Or old people that they're old? Or short men that they're short? I don't think there are any people who aren't patently aware of how other people view their looks if they're overweight or even just aesthetically outside some norms. Why is it your mission to change them? Many of life's problems can't be easily solved. Overweight can be. EASILY. This is a myth. Genetics do matter. Especially at the weights the OP was talking about with aesthetics.
SpanksTheMonkey Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 (edited) Do you realize spanksthemonkey that the above phrase is a pure statement of opinion on your part? Yet you state it as if it is not only a fact, but an irrefutable, objective fact, rather than purely an opinion. As a result of my disagreement with your opinion, you gratuitously call me "totally twisted and heartless" which I am not, therefore immediately contradicting your own statement that "every one deserves basic respect" by not granting it to me. So not only is your statement above a pure statement of opinion, you actually negated your own opinion in the process of stating it, by not treating ME with "basic respect." I am coming at this whole topic purely objectively. You are not, you are coming at it in a completely emotional manner. It's like with zen girl's numerous posts going all over the place. But when she finally admits HER dating preferences it's only with physically fit guys, not fat men. This type of denial of reality and outright hypocrisy IS the problem. As long as people who are obese keep telling themselves it's not a problem, they will never resolve it. Not the weight; not the relationship issues; not the psychological or emotional issues. The key to unlocking all this is simple objective fact and honesty. People who have options generally prefer to date physically fit people, not obese people. Physically fit people are generally more active, more productive, and happier than obese people. Physically fit people have more dating options than obese people, all other things being equal. Finally obesity is one of those things that is largely behavioral and thus can be changed by using behavioral modification principles. So something CAN be done about it. The "problem" can be SOLVED. Many of life's problems can't be easily solved. Overweight can be. EASILY. In the time that it takes to type of posts on the internet explaining why being obese doesn't matter, you could burn off a couple of hundred calories on a treadmill. Do that every day and problem solved, for most people. But they'd rather argue. Complain. Blame the messengers. Gripe. You called me "twisted" and "heartless" remember? You're the one doing all the judging of people's "worthiness." I never said anyone who was obese wasn't a "worthy human being" (whatever that's supposed to mean?) LOL, why are you so concerned about what I think? Why does it matter to you so much? I think it makes me sound "rational." Why? How do you think it makes me sound? You can twist my words how ever you like to make them seam to work for you but at the end of the day I think its fairly clear to people what your true agenda/view is and luckily thats not my prob its yours.. Edited August 14, 2010 by SpanksTheMonkey
InceptorsRule Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 You can twist my words how ever you like to make them seam to work for you but at the end of the day I think its fairly clear to people what your true agenda/view is and luckily thats not my prob its yours.. I see. Your issues with weight and body image are actually my problem. Thank you for explaining that to me.
InceptorsRule Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 You've said it bothers you when weight renders someone undateable. LOL zengirl, now you're just outright making things up. I challenge you to find where I said what you just attributed to me. I've dated overweight women and have had sex with frankly obese women. It's YOU who have clearly indicated that you don't date overweight people. You got caught in your own hypocrisy and are now trying to project it onto me. Fail.
zengirl Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 LOL zengirl, now you're just outright making things up. I challenge you to find where I said what you just attributed to me. I've dated overweight women and have had sex with frankly obese women. It's YOU who have clearly indicated that you don't date overweight people. You got caught in your own hypocrisy and are now trying to project it onto me. Fail. I was referring to this: Originally Posted by InceptorsRule Maybe because it's kind of frustrating for guys who actually do like a lot of things about these overweight girls, and would really like to date them, but they're just turned off by the lack of fitness. I'm not a hypocrite. I'm a thin, active gal who dates somewhat similar men (though I've dated men who were not terribly active too). I'm someone who will state a preference and think it's fine when others do just that. I do think needless harassment is impolite and needless. You can't seem to see the difference between choosing who you date and needlessly harassing people you don't want to date. I'm not sure why. It does not bother me when people are overweight. Never been attracted to it. If I am someday, then I'll go with it. . . I don't make it about some weird emotional issues. . . but it hasn't happened yet.
Sphere Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 I think it's all getting rather personal now and very bigoted. Fat people are human beings and should treated as such. I don't agree with this "fat culture" we have in the West where it is becoming acceptable to be fat, but at the sametime I don't think those who are fat deserve to be vilified and treated without any respect whatsoever.
Lorelai Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 It seems to me you've given it quite a bit of thought. So, tell me, how fat does a guy have to be before you're unwilling to date him? Please don't tell me you prefer fat guys to fit, in shape (not muscle bound) guys. Actually, count me as an oddball here, but I do prefer a guy to have padding. There's very little that turns me off more than being able to see a guy's veins poking out in his skin. I prefer broad shoulders, some muscle, but with a layer of padding. The "teddy bear" type. LOL, what woman gets into a relationship with a guy and doesn't find things she wants to start changing about him? If you're saying that's who you are, then you're one of the few. You're really not being truthful with any of this, you've argued yourself into a corner and can't get out now. LOL. Right. Women never try to change the men they date. C'mon I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion here. What woman doesn't try to change a man? A woman who has learned from past experiences that attempting to change anyone is futile. Even if there are things a person can see that would be improvements, only people who are naive or stupid go into relationships with the intention of changing someone and think it'll actually work. It's great if they do change or improve, but if they do it's going to be by their own efforts and desire, not their partner "fixing" them. IMHO a smart person goes into a relationship only if they're willing to accept their partner as they are. Otherwise they are VERY likely to be disappointed.
InceptorsRule Posted August 14, 2010 Posted August 14, 2010 I was referring to this: Fine, what you quoted me as saying does not say anything about my personal preferences. You misquoted me. I don't mind if you quote or even paraphrase me as long as you do so reasonably accurately. I'm not a hypocrite. I'm a thin, active gal who dates somewhat similar men (though I've dated men who were not terribly active too). I'm someone who will state a preference and think it's fine when others do just that. I do think needless harassment is impolite and needless. You can't seem to see the difference between choosing who you date and needlessly harassing people you don't want to date. I'm not sure why. Obviously I can see the difference. What makes you believe I harass anyone I've ever dated about their weight? This is a discussion forum and I've simply explicitly stated objective facts about this issue which people such as YOURSELF (not me, zengirl--YOU) actually put into practice in your dating life on a regular basis. I, personally, when I was dating, can honestly say I NEVER rejected or excluded a person from consideration as a dating partner simply because of an issue like their weight. I've dated all kinds of girls: obese girls, deaf girls, girls with cats, girls of different ethnic groups/races/religions than my own, you name it. All I have done in the discussion was point out the prejudices and biases that OTHER PEOPLE have. Other people such as yourself. But NOT ME. It does not bother me when people are overweight. Never been attracted to it. If I am someday, then I'll go with it. . . I don't make it about some weird emotional issues. . . but it hasn't happened yet. Well goody gumdrops for you then.
zengirl Posted August 15, 2010 Posted August 15, 2010 InceptorsRule, I wasn't talking about your personal preferences, as they are as irrelevant as mine are. I was talking about your litany of statements. Saying you are talking about "other people" when you say these things is patently silly. That's like if I said, "Some people might call you an ******* for saying these things" without any kind of refute. The fact that I said "some people" doesn't make it any less true that I said it. People date who they're attracted to. Many people find, over the years, that this is a "Type" and some people don't. I have stated my "Type" but I make no prejudgments of the character of someone based upon it. I don't go up to anyone and tell them what the problem with their looks is to me. . . or even really see it as a problem. If I don't like the way someone looks, it just isn't my taste. I'm not attracted. I don't worry about how they could be dateable to me or assume they aren't dateable to others. I don't know why you're trying to twist it all up with having physical preferences. . . this is where all the attacks come from. I've met few people in life who minded that I or anyone else had physical preferences, and I've not met many people who didn't have physical preferences themselves. In my case, it is not hard for me to find someone to date who matches all of my preferences -- who is physically attractive to me, fun, compatible, amusing, intelligent, kind, and interesting. I cannot imagine why someone would date anyone who wasn't physically attractive to them, but I don't pretend that *I* have the same taste as everyone. I presume there are many people who don't find me physically attractive for whatever reason. This does not bother me. Why should it?
SpanksTheMonkey Posted August 15, 2010 Posted August 15, 2010 I see. Your issues with weight and body image are actually my problem. Thank you for explaining that to me. I have no issues with my weight or my body image ive never started any threads about either. I will defend myself agents ignorance how ever when I see fit if you see that as me having issues then good on you. Perhaps has ive said thats truly a reflection of were your coming from. Im not the one who gets upset because they can't have everything they want in life and then feels entitled to belittle others because of it. Im fairly sure we all get your point already and let me condense it for those who don't care to read the last 20 or so posts.. (Inceptors doesn't like fat people and feels they do not deserve basic human respect and he also feels its his grand noble duty to be outwardly crewel and disrespectful to them of course its only cause hes got their "best interests" at hart! ) As ive said thats your issue not mine hope it works well for you in life im not going to add to this train wreck anymore as its already gone way off topic my apologies to the op as im sure ive helped it along hopefully others will join me in not responding to you as well and just let it die...
SpanksTheMonkey Posted August 15, 2010 Posted August 15, 2010 I think it's all getting rather personal now and very bigoted. Fat people are human beings and should treated as such. I don't agree with this "fat culture" we have in the West where it is becoming acceptable to be fat, but at the sametime I don't think those who are fat deserve to be vilified and treated without any respect whatsoever. I agree Sphere..
Author Els Posted August 18, 2010 Author Posted August 18, 2010 Asserting that a size 10 is medically obese is every bit as valid (or not) as saying that BMI "is probably the easiest way the average layman or woman can gauge his/her healthiness in relation to body mass." Seems you only like the generalizations you make. Nonsense. It is simply not possible, barring severe dwarfism, for a size 10 to be medically obese (which is defined in medicine as a BMI of >30). On the other hand, I work with medical professionals, and the majority of them DO use the BMI as the gauge for healthiness in relation to body mass most of the time for average people (not professional athletes, etc). If your BMI is above the recommended range, they advise you to lose weight. If it is within the range, they advise you to maintain weight while running a healthy lifestyle. It's really that simple. If you feel like challenging the point and insisting that it is invalid, please give me facts of your own to prove it. It's quite pointless to say anything otherwise.
Chocolat Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 If you feel like challenging the point and insisting that it is invalid, please give me facts of your own to prove it. It's quite pointless to say anything otherwise. Sure. I hope you will do the same. A BMI of 30 is roughly 30 pounds overweight. (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4607) A woman who is 5'4" -- certainly not a dwarf -- who weighs 175 pounds has a BMI of 30. (http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/) This is considered obese by the US Department of Health and Human Services. (http://win.niddk.nih.gov/Publications/PDFs/Weightandwaist.pdf) A US size 10 is made to fit a woman with a bust of 36", waist of 28.5" and hips of 29.5" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_standard_clothing_size) A person with a waist size of 28.5 and weighing 175 pounds (dimensions for a US size 10) has a BMI of 30.1 (http://home.fuse.net/clymer/bmi/). As seen above, a BMI of 30 is obese, ergo, the dimensions for a US size 10 are obese for a non-dwarf woman who is 5'4" tall. Now, please provide some facts to support your claims, whatever they are.
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