SoulSearch_CO Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 I'm curious to hear viewpoints on this. I know I've read things on here before about there being some biological imperative on the man's part to get the woman to fall in love (biologically - by having sex with her to get the oxytocin to kick in early on). This hopefully guaranteeing the paternity of the children he ends up raising, etc. The reason this is coming up for me is that a friend of mine said to me that women are incapable of loving for life. WTF? LOL I told him I disagree - that doesn't make biological sense. He said that women are programmed to be able to move on easily and that's exactly what happens, while men are programmed to love for the rest of their lives. Anyway - I'd love to hear some feedback/opinions on this topic. I've searched around for articles or something to back up my thoughts. But really - I'm open to either viewpoint, it'd just be nice to be backed up by SOMETHING other than just personal experience. So, yes - share your experiences - but I'd love it if somebody knew of a book or an article.
jerseyboy Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Like the topic. It does make a kind of sense. I have observed with friends thast women do seem to move on easier and quicker in general. But you have to account for circumstances. I think especially when an upgrade is involved that is true. Less so when one isnt involved.
Author SoulSearch_CO Posted November 23, 2009 Author Posted November 23, 2009 Well, I don't get it. Because in spite of all the **** I put up with from my XH and the fact that I know a R with him again is a horrible idea, I have a hard time not missing him being completely out of my life. I mean, sure - my life is less complicated and my valuation of the male species has improved with him gone. But there's part of me that still loves him. And I filed divorce from him in May of last year - finalized last year in August. Haven't seen him since...um...I want to say July of this year.
carhill Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 IME, psychology is as important as biology; how we are wired for love. IMO, that's as unique as every individual. We can extrapolate generalities but ultimately we each deal with love and its loss as individuals. Those amongst us who play to the generalities will likely have more consistent results, and, if those results are what they find healthy for them, more 'success' as well. As someone wired atypically for a male, generalities don't work for me. Just ask my stbx. Her repeated comment in MC was that she wished I were 'normal'. Thanks, but I like my steak rare
jerseyboy Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Two things I hear a lot from guys are 1) Shes already seeing someone else. 2)Shes emotionless. Like we never knew each other, after they break up So the claim makes some sense to me I also think women are better than guys at general in breaking up, and staying broken up. Most guys I know , even if they initiated the break up, usually have second thoughts and want to go back at some point. I also think it has something to do with the way women are more likely to forgive infidelity than a guy. Not to say it doesnt hurt women. But with guys I think its more final in general. Whereas women see the big picture. Along the lines of once another guy has sex with her, she will no longer hold the same value to him in some basic instinctive way. Reality conditions that away somewhat in this day and age, but its there
BookerT Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. First of all as Carhill correctly stated individuals have variations in their behavior, and also humans are affected by social conditioning and what they are taught to be moral or right. From a purely evolutionary standpoint forget monogamy. Males are designed to mate with as many females as possible, hence why there's still polygamy in so many societies. Having said that there's two high success rate strategies that males gravitate towards. 1) Stay with one female and ensure the kids are your offspring, and also ensure highly chances the kids will survive. 2) Sleep around with as many females as possible (what modern players do), thus increasing the chances of passing on more genes even if some offspring die. Only more powerful or alpha males have the ability to attract enough females to make this strategy successful. Females on the other hand are programmed to find the top male, that's why women will cheat as well, if they feel their current male is not good enough. It also explains why some women are willing to be mistresses, they would rather be the second female of a strong male than the first female of a weak male. Contrary to what you and your friend thinks. Both men and women are not programmed to mate for life. It's prefential to mate with a different parent after several years, hence why so many humans fall out of love and move to a new relationship or divorce after a few years, even if they try their hardest to make things work. Humans are programmed to mate for a 7 years on AVERAGE, which is the time it takes for an infant to get old enough for a tribe to take care of it. Edited November 23, 2009 by BookerT
carhill Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 JB, you just wrote what you might hear about me.... 1. He's already seeing someone else 2. He's emotionless. It's like we never knew each other after we broke up. Other men's penises are inconsequential. They're just men. Like little scurrying ants. A woman's soul is what's important. Once I make a decision that her soul has no value to me, she ceases to exist. Interesting, isn't it The OP did ask for various perspectives to consider.... For women, they are already seeing someone else because they can, without any significant effort other than breathing, assuming the guy isn't into necrophilia. Ergo, it's easy for them to be emotionless because those emotions are reserved for the new guy, whomever they perceive him to be. Based on my readings of LS, women talk about cheating males more, but I don't get the sense that they tolerate it more. In my own life and experience, unless the man is wealthy, it runs between 40 and 50 percent, meaning those women who have complained about a cheating partner and the percentage who have left. I've only had one male friend directly tell me his wife cheated on him and, last I knew, they were still together, and were for at least five years after she cheated. I was wired more to stay in the marriage and work on it, I believe simply because I was socialized by parents who had a life-long loving marriage and that was my model. My stbx, OTOH, came from a divorced family and had two prior divorces under her belt, so her perspective was necessarily different, especially in light of my not being 'normal'. Like I said, generalities can bite one in the asstatistics
jerseyboy Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Im not offering conclusions Carhill, just my own observations in real life. And I do believe there are other factors. Nor do I find it true of myself. But I also think IM atypical with this sort of thing, so I wouldnt be a good measure.
carhill Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 My conclusion is that there are no conclusions Yeah, I know you're offering up experience and perspective, as we all are. Some trend more to the 'norms' offered up by the OP and some other. Can we evolve beyond our biological history and imprinting? Do we want to? Good questions, IMO.
radwimps Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 from my experience, yes, Women are DEFINITELY quicker and better at getting over ex-s. When my guy friends get dumped, they'd be in a depressed state for anytime between weeks to months. Girls "Friends"? They get their sh it back together in days. It always amazes me, because they'd always cry over stuff like being swamped by school work, but in relationships, women usually have the upper hand.
jerseyboy Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Think we do However I think you may be too dismissive, especially on a larger scale By way of example. I recall discussing a study some time ago with some doctor friends. Im goijng by memory, but they discovered a certain gene, or absence of one, that was predictive of male fidelity in marriage. If you have or dont have this gene, forget which, you are more likely to remain monogamous than otherwise by considerable multiples. I think there was also soemthing about being perceived by the female spouse as being more emotionally available. No one was suggesting that to be in the unfortunate category was a sentence of infidelity. Certainly people can overcome nature. But the truth is I think most people do so with more or less meager success.
BookerT Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Certainly people can overcome nature. But the truth is I think most people do so with more or less meager success. I think individuals can overcome nature. As a race we're pretty animal like, and about 50% of us cheat even when we know it's wrong.
carhill Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 http://www.thetech.org/genetics/news.php?id=9
Author SoulSearch_CO Posted November 23, 2009 Author Posted November 23, 2009 I agree that it's individualistic. I've never understood "monkey disease" (branch-swinging between relationships), trading up, or being able to shut off my heart. I feel emotion and I feel it deeply. And once I love somebody, they stay a part of me. I still remember the full name of the first boy I had "puppy love" for. I'd have to say my XH was my first "true" love - and that's been for 7 years, now. I'm not IN LOVE with him - meaning I couldn't be in relationship with him - but I still care about him. It seems he couldn't give a **** about me considering I wrote him an email a couple weeks ago trying to get a joint issue worked out (we still owe some money together from having formed an LLC while we were married) and he has completely ignored me. So I guess I'm not getting that men love forever while women always turn it off. Can we evolve beyond our biological history and imprinting? Do we want to? Good questions, IMO. An important question and I think too many people use the convenient excuse of biology/psychology to keep from acting like adults. I also think women are better than guys at general in breaking up, and staying broken up. Most guys I know , even if they initiated the break up, usually have second thoughts and want to go back at some point. I think individuals can overcome nature. As a race we're pretty animal like, and about 50% of us cheat even when we know it's wrong. That's promising after reading your post just before. I was starting to get depressed. LOL Im goijng by memory, but they discovered a certain gene, or absence of one, that was predictive of male fidelity in marriage. If you have or dont have this gene, forget which, you are more likely to remain monogamous than otherwise by considerable multiples. I think there was also soemthing about being perceived by the female spouse as being more emotionally available. It's the presence of the gene that makes a man more likely to cheat. I still don't think it gives anyone an excuse.
BookerT Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 The science behind it isn't meant to be an excuse. Science is meant to get at the truth, even if the truth is ugly or inconvenient. I don't think most cheaters are even aware of evolutionary, biological arguements. They're hardly using it as an excuse for their actions. Rather they just got an urge and went and did it. Don't assume humans are moral creatures by nature. It's the other way around, humans are just animals with higher intelligence. We need to be taught right or wrong, it's not innate. That makes us animals with a very selfish nature. Books like Lord of the flies explore this, how kids become savage once left on an island by themselves. Hurricane Katrina and how men murdered, looted, and raped people also show that side of animal nature. Just go on CNN or any news network and daily there's messed up news that shows our animal side. In fact if there were no cops on the streets, don't count on humans being "adult". People will be looting, raping and killing each other within 24 hours. Scary isn't it? But even in a civlized culture with a legal system and cops, people will push the boundaries. Just look at Wall street and it's greed. Look at people cheating. Don't give humans too much credit. That's why when I meet a geuinely nice person I really appreciate them for who they are.
Author SoulSearch_CO Posted November 23, 2009 Author Posted November 23, 2009 Booker - I've had a good deal of interaction with the law enforcement community because of my job and education. I totally get what humans are capable of. I just don't think it's an excuse for said behavior on any level. People can choose how to act - even under tremendous pressure. I think part of evolving is higher thought process.
BookerT Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Booker - I've had a good deal of interaction with the law enforcement community because of my job and education. I totally get what humans are capable of. I just don't think it's an excuse for said behavior on any level. People can choose how to act - even under tremendous pressure. I think part of evolving is higher thought process. No, I'm not saying it's an excuse..... I'm saying it's the ugly truth. You might be able to reason beyond it all, and I might be able to. But a large percentage of humans never have, and never will reason beyond their animal nature. What's really disturbing is the % of people in our jails even though we do have police, and jails. One of the biggest control mechanisms for humans is not personal accountability, but an external authority and consequence of actions, and yet still so many people break the law. If you take away the police and just let people do what they like without fear of going to jail. Do you know how many people will kill their spouses? How many people will turn up to the office and kill their boss? It's be total anarchy. A large percentage of human beings can't be trusted to control themselves. That's a sad truth, it's not an excuse, and that's something the human race has to deal with, it's part of who we are as a race.
tami-chan Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Two things I hear a lot from guys are 1) Shes already seeing someone else. 2)Shes emotionless. Like we never knew each other, after they break up So the claim makes some sense to me I also think women are better than guys at general in breaking up, and staying broken up. Most guys I know , even if they initiated the break up, usually have second thoughts and want to go back at some point. I also think it has something to do with the way women are more likely to forgive infidelity than a guy. Not to say it doesnt hurt women. But with guys I think its more final in general. Whereas women see the big picture. Along the lines of once another guy has sex with her, she will no longer hold the same value to him in some basic instinctive way. Reality conditions that away somewhat in this day and age, but its there Interesting...my BF and I were just discussing this. He said when a woman breaks up with a man it is pretty much a done deal because she has already thought about it for weeks, or months , even years before she actually makes the move. So during the time prior to breaking up, she preps herself up, make arrangements, etc.etc. so that when the actual break up happens she is already ready to move on. Hmm..I think he is right. I certainly prepped myself up before ending my relationships and because the two relationships I have ended, both men said the break-up came from left field. It's hard to believe that they didn't know it was coming, but that was they said.
espec10001 Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Why is this even being questioned? You don't need science to explain this. Women just exist, they are there. They are pretty, and they don't have problems with guys coming TO THEM. Men have to GO TO women, thus it is work for them. Women just have to doll themselves up and they will have guys lining up to date them. Why do women have an easier time breaking up? Because all they have to do is doll themselves up and within seconds another guy will persue her. Why do men have a harder time breaking up? Because men have to do the pursuing and the work, they don't want to let go of their prize because they realized how hard it was getting this prize. DUH?
Devil Inside Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 I think that women can move on from one relationship to the next much easier then men. I don't know if this necessarily means that they are not capable of loving just one person for a lifetime, but they are more evolved emotionally then men, and can thus move on easier. They are able to really connect with their emotions and can realize when something is no longer working for them much sooner then men. They also have less to lose in some ways when they end a relationship. For many men, the woman they are with is the only person that they have really been emotionally open with...where women have many "girlfriends' that they can do this with. So men may cling on longer. Personally I think it is difficult for either men or women to love one person their whole lives.
jerseyboy Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Interesting...my BF and I were just discussing this. He said when a woman breaks up with a man it is pretty much a done deal because she has already thought about it for weeks, or months , even years before she actually makes the move. So during the time prior to breaking up, she preps herself up, make arrangements, etc.etc. so that when the actual break up happens she is already ready to move on. Hmm..I think he is right. I certainly prepped myself up before ending my relationships and because the two relationships I have ended, both men said the break-up came from left field. It's hard to believe that they didn't know it was coming, but that was they said. That makes sense to me as well
A O Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Interesting...my BF and I were just discussing this. He said when a woman breaks up with a man it is pretty much a done deal because she has already thought about it for weeks, or months , even years before she actually makes the move. So during the time prior to breaking up, she preps herself up, make arrangements, etc.etc. so that when the actual break up happens she is already ready to move on. Agreed, that's what I'm used to seeing also. Women tend to have far larger support networks also to help unburden themselves with and make sense of things and so forth. On the flip side, most men tend to suffer in silence, so put together, these are the chief reasons why women seem to be able to move on far more quickly than men. .
Devil Inside Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Interesting...my BF and I were just discussing this. He said when a woman breaks up with a man it is pretty much a done deal because she has already thought about it for weeks, or months , even years before she actually makes the move. So during the time prior to breaking up, she preps herself up, make arrangements, etc.etc. so that when the actual break up happens she is already ready to move on. Hmm..I think he is right. I certainly prepped myself up before ending my relationships and because the two relationships I have ended, both men said the break-up came from left field. It's hard to believe that they didn't know it was coming, but that was they said. The interesting thing about this is why we guys have not become better at picking up the cues to when a woman is getting ready to make the break. I can look back at all my old relationships where the woman broke it off and now in hindsight I can pick almost to the day when things went south..and when they became cold. However, when in a relationship I can hardly pick this up. Have other people had this experience?
threebyfate Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 The reason this is coming up for me is that a friend of mine said to me that women are incapable of loving for life. WTF? LOL I told him I disagree - that doesn't make biological sense. He said that women are programmed to be able to move on easily and that's exactly what happens,Biologically, this makes sense since at one time, men died, due to how dangerous it was to be a caveman, who not only had to protect his herd of women but also, hunting food wasn't a walk in the park. while men are programmed to love for the rest of their lives.Now this is utter b/s. Men are biologically programmed to spread their seed, to ensure for species continuity.
cognac Posted November 25, 2009 Posted November 25, 2009 I think men are comparable to dogs. When you show love, friendship, compassion to a dog, he will be your loyal guardian to the end. You can go from millionaire to pauper overnight and your dog will be there begging on the street with you. Women on the other hand are quite different. Women will be great and treat you awesome when the times are good, but when the going gets tough they will always opt for the "better" option, women are biologically (and 50% socially) tuned to believe that the grass is always greener somewhere else. Never happy with what they have, our society calls this "ambition" and celebrates it as something noble.(feminization of our society) As soon as their toy doesn't sexually excite them as it used to, or entertain them as it used to, they go and trade it in for a new one. I would like to praise the women who do not follow these instincts of theirs. However, the ones who don't trade in the old toy usually do it because they can't afford the new ones. (although some arrogant ones go with it anyway)
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