carhill Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 I think she's making the distinction between refusing to answer questions and making untruthful statements. IIRC, the law differentiates between those dynamics so she might be doing so as well. Is omission of or refusal to tell the 'truth' a lie? You have the right to remain silent
Thornton Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 I'll put it this way - if he asks you whether you've ever cheated before, you're going to lie. And since you're going to lie, then there's little point in asking him whether he's ever had a threesome before. OK, let's assume he asks me if I ever cheated, and I lie and say no (not saying I would, but just assume). Why does that make it pointless for me to ask him if he's ever had a threesome? Just because I lied, that doesn't mean he's also going to lie. I could quite conceivably lie to him and then go on to ask him whatever questions I want and receive truthful answers.
Author jerseyboy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Posted November 21, 2009 OK, let's assume he asks me if I ever cheated, and I lie and say no (not saying I would, but just assume). Why does that make it pointless for me to ask him if he's ever had a threesome? Just because I lied, that doesn't mean he's also going to lie. I could quite conceivably lie to him and then go on to ask him whatever questions I want and receive truthful answers. What they are suggesting is you are hypocritical
Thornton Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 What they are suggesting is you are hypocritical OK, perhaps it is hypocritical to lie and expect to be told the truth in return. But my point is that having skeletons in your own closet doesn't prevent you asking questions to someone else, as long as you're prepared to either reveal your skeletons or lie when asked questions in return. Is omitting to mention your past the same as lying about it? I'd be inclined to say no.
thegreatmoose Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 Are they entitled to know how many partners? No. They are entitled to know I'm disease free. You can't win with the how many partners question unless you give them the "right" numbers. You give them the "wrong" numbers and they may judge you unfairly only based on a number. I might give this information eventually, especially if they do, but not until well into a relationship.
carhill Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 Is omitting to mention your past the same as lying about it? I'd be inclined to say no. I would agree, but active omission in the face of a direct question would be considered by most to be adversarial, and something antithetical to a cooperative dynamic. Not exactly the best place to grow intimacy from, IMO.
Author jerseyboy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Posted November 21, 2009 OK, perhaps it is hypocritical to lie and expect to be told the truth in return. But my point is that having skeletons in your own closet doesn't prevent you asking questions to someone else, as long as you're prepared to either reveal your skeletons or lie when asked questions in return. Is omitting to mention your past the same as lying about it? I'd be inclined to say no. Well it isnt omitting if they directly ask you. And frankly I have yet to meet a woman who doesnt ask you if youve cheated. And like an ass I always tell the truth, so IM more than sympathetic to your point of view. I do understand that having done it, especially when circumstances are accounted for, doesnt mean you will again. I can also understand why people might think so. The more attractive you are the worst it is for them to accept. Because unlike some short fat guy, they are aware women will hit on you often enough, and that youve already demonmstrated you can be had.
Author jerseyboy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Posted November 21, 2009 No. They are entitled to know I'm disease free. You can't win with the how many partners question unless you give them the "right" numbers. You give them the "wrong" numbers and they may judge you unfairly only based on a number. I might give this information eventually, especially if they do, but not until well into a relationship. Truthfully I honestly have no idea anyway. But its bad enough that I have run into women I dont even recall sleeping with, so its probably not good.
DenvyH22 Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 My ex man told me he cheated when we first met but I still loved him anyway.
thegreatmoose Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 Truthfully I honestly have no idea anyway. But its bad enough that I have run into women I dont even recall sleeping with, so its probably not good. I have no problem telling her what I'm interested in and giving a reasonable idea about my past. Putting everything into a number is a poor idea. People can jump to incorrect conclusions whether it's a small or large number.
Author jerseyboy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Posted November 21, 2009 I have no problem telling her what I'm interested in and giving a reasonable idea about my past. Putting everything into a number is a poor idea. People can jump to incorrect conclusions whether it's a small or large number. Unless they are content to leave well enough alone altogether, they all want a number. People have some instinct about having to quantify it. And human beings ten to seek out information to justify their preconceived fears. Im not unsympathetic to the desire. I do understand why people would want to know, to flesh out those things that make them insecure\. When I was younger I was the same way. As you get older you just realize youre just better off not knowing lol
thegreatmoose Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 Unless they are content to leave well enough alone altogether, they all want a number. People have some instinct about having to quantify it. And human beings ten to seek out information to justify their preconceived fears. Im not unsympathetic to the desire. I do understand why people would want to know, to flesh out those things that make them insecure\. When I was younger I was the same way. As you get older you just realize youre just better off not knowing lol I'm not against giving them a general idea and maybe evertually they can learn the number. I consider it very rude to ask just for a number early on.
Author jerseyboy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Posted November 21, 2009 I'm not against giving them a general idea and maybe evertually they can learn the number. I consider it very rude to ask just for a number early on. Yeah most people wait before they peeper you with questions that can be interpreted as portraying them as psychos. Then they are always prefaced with a "It really doesnt bother me what you did before us...so tell me about"
A O Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 But my point is that having skeletons in your own closet doesn't prevent you asking questions to someone else, as long as you're prepared to either reveal your skeletons or lie when asked questions in return. I see. Understandable thought process given your past. Cheat once, end up lying many times... Is omitting to mention your past the same as lying about it? I'd be inclined to say no.Lies by omission is a well known saying for a reason. .
Thornton Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 I see. Understandable thought process given your past. Cheat once, end up lying many times... Lies by omission is a well known saying for a reason. Well then where do we draw the line between omission and too much information? Not that any of this is true, but let's say I had anal sex with a dozen different guys, or I had lesbian experiences, or I sometimes thought about odd fetishes while masturbating... is it lying not to disclose that information, given that it has no bearing on the current relationship? I feel it's reasonable not to disclose information which would make someone regard you negatively, as long as it's stuff which is in the past and has no bearing on the present situation. I feel that an emotional infidelity many years ago falls into that category, particularly as people seem to be so judgemental about it without understanding the circumstances. Come to that, is an outright lie justified if it prevents someone misjudging you or becoming upset over nothing? We justify such lies in other areas of our lives if they spare people's feelings or avoid unnecessary complications, so why not with regard to sex and relationships?
Thornton Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 I see. Understandable thought process given your past. Cheat once, end up lying many times... You may note that I offered two options: either reveal your skeletons (i.e. tell the truth) or lie. I am unsure why you chose to single out only the lying option in your response, but I will assume that you're not suggesting I am a habitual liar since that would obviously make you a rather impolite individual.
A O Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 You may note that I offered two options: either reveal your skeletons (i.e. tell the truth) or lie. I am unsure why you chose to single out only the lying option in your response, but I will assume that you're not suggesting I am a habitual liar since that would obviously make you a rather impolite individual. Dear Thornton, I apologize sincerely for any offence you've taken from my correspondence with you. I never meant to be sarcastic or mean spirited. I understand that my analysis of your behavior was unhelpful and unproductive towards you, but neither did I think it was inappropriate. Understanding what drives behavior is a core element to my being, and is something that I've found to be far my constructive than simply overlooking certain behaviors. Again, my apologies. A O .
Thornton Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 No problem I'm happy to talk about what's happened in my past, because I'm also interested in analysing and understanding behaviour, and listening to other people's opinions is a valuable part of that. Sometimes all of us (including me) can be a little unclear in what we mean, or a little off the mark if it's a touchy subject. I'm glad we can be mature about minor misunderstandings and resolve them amicably
Ruby Slippers Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 I feel it's reasonable not to disclose information which would make someone regard you negatively, as long as it's stuff which is in the past and has no bearing on the present situation. I feel that an emotional infidelity many years ago falls into that category, particularly as people seem to be so judgemental about it without understanding the circumstances. Stop being a wimp, and stop associating with wimps. If a guy can't handle the truth that you made a mistake when you were basically a kid and you've matured since then, HE'S A WIMP and you don't need him!
A O Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 No problem I'm happy to talk about what's happened in my past, because I'm also interested in analysing and understanding behaviour, and listening to other people's opinions is a valuable part of that. Sweet. If a guy can't handle the truth that you made a mistake when you were basically a kid and you've matured since then, HE'S A WIMP and you don't need him! I wouldn't call it wimpish. To not want a cheater is totally understandable no matter the circumstance. I would think though, that a person would recognize bravery and honesty and judge each case on its merits when faced with the truth though. So, guilty of being too quick to judge - more than likely, being a wimp - not in my book. .
Thornton Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 I would think though, that a person would recognize bravery and honesty and judge each case on its merits when faced with the truth though. That's what I thought when I talked to boyfriends about my past experience of cheating. I could have kept quiet about it and said nothing, or even lied about it, but I chose to be honest... I admitted my mistake and explained that I've learned from the experience and don't want to repeat it. Commendable, no? Apparently not, because men typically begin to distrust me immediately, which led one person to break up with me even though I'd never done anything to make him personally distrust me, and others to become paranoid, possessive, not wanting me to socialise with other men, and throwing my supposed untrustworthiness back in my face every chance they got. I eventually came to the conclusion that although I would prefer to be honest with someone, they're generally so judgemental that the honesty destroys the relationship. If something is definitely in the past and you want to leave it there, it's not wise to mention it, because you can be sure that the other person won't allow it to stay in the past but will keep bringing it up all the time.
carhill Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 A possible corollary question could be would you be attracted to a trusting, non-judgmental man? Wait a bit before answering that....
Thornton Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 A possible corollary question could be would you be attracted to a trusting, non-judgmental man? Wait a bit before answering that.... Umm... I think so. At least the men I dated seemed decent enough. Perhaps it was more about their insecurity than anything else?
threebyfate Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 Based on the perception of LS, if so many people have cheated in the past, why wouldn't you, Thornton, be able to find men who have also cheated in the past, but have turned a new leaf?
Thornton Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 Based on the perception of LS, if so many people have cheated in the past, why wouldn't you, Thornton, be able to find men who have also cheated in the past, but have turned a new leaf? Perhaps I have dated some already, and they just haven't told me about it in case I judged them? But why does it matter if they've cheated in the past or not... why would I specifically want to look for a guy with experience of cheating? I don't think it makes much difference either way as long as he isn't doing it now.
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