Is this hopeless? I feel like such a cliche.

[Confused7765]

I apologize for the length of this post. I tried to include as many important details as I could so people could offer up a fair assessment of the situation. Much appreciated if you make it through the whole thing.

 

My guy (we'll call him Colton) has been in a relationship for about 8 years. He and his girlfriend live together, but aren't married, don't have any kids, no shared property, etc. He and I have worked together for almost three years. We are only a year apart in age (late 20's), but he is my direct superior, even though it's never really felt that way due to our age, the fact that we have mutual friends we know outside of the workplace, and that the dynamic is more that we work together for a shared higher up than me working directly for him. Tbh, I always was curious about him from the first day I met him, but knew from our mutual friends that he had a girlfriend and so in my mind, between that & the fact that we work together, he was off limits. We were friendly at work when we had to interact on work related things and would very occasionally small talk about our mutual friends, but never got lunch or saw each other outside of work or anything. It was strictly business with an informal air about it. Over that time, he did joke through work email a couple times about owing me some drinks after we finished a big project and our mutual friend suggested we all get drinks sometime, but it never came to fruition and I always took his offer as something people say to foster comraderie/express gratitude for my work on the project, but don't follow through with. He openly mentioned the girlfriend in our work emails when referring to a party he saw our mutual friend at, and I didn't really think much of the situation in general.

 

About a year ago, about 6 months since the last time he jokingly suggested he owes me a drinks, he emailed me saying he never got me that drink he owes me and would I be up for grabbing one now? I felt nervous because I wasn't sure where this was coming from, but other people in our office go to drinks with each other all the time after work and nobody thinks anything of it, so I chalked my nervousness up to me overthinking it and agreed. I think both of us just assumed it would be one drink but we ended up staying out all night until last call. Nothing sketchy, just an insane connection I genuinely haven't felt immediately with someone like that ever before. At one point, he mentioned a trip he went on the previous summer and I felt like it was weird he didn't directly say he went with his girlfriend, when he was so open about her before. So I directly asked about her, and he said they weren't in a good place right now and he didn't know what was going on with them. (Red flag cliche #1, I know). He asked for my number and we were inseparable about texting ever since. First thing in the morning to last thing at night. Although I see this now as the first big step on the path of absurdity, at the time, I felt like it was sort of weird he wanted to be so emotionally open and close to me, but didn't think anything would come of the situation and I was dating someone at the time (not seriously, but my mind wasn't really focused on being super careful about a friendship with him). The vibe was mostly that of very close friends, but with s definite chemistry. We had a ton in common and I really hadn't met someone I could talk to about literally everything and feel like they just got it. I have had long term relationships in the past and have dated a number of people (nobody previously in a relationship before), and there was a straight ease to it with Colton that I genuinely didn't think possible. I valued the friendship first and foremost (and still do).

 

He tells me that he found out she cheated on him a couple weeks ago, that he doesn't know the true details because she won't tell him, he found out because the other guy came to a party at their house with his wife and the other guys wife told Colton something was up. Colton had always suspected this guy, but his girlfriend would deny it. Colton snooped and found texts, but still couldn't get anything but trickle truth. It seems to me like it had been going on for about three years before the other guy's wife found out and made him get a job somewhere else and cut contact with Colton's girlfriend. Colton seemed kind of a mess and generally conflicted. He felt like he couldn't tell anyone because all of their friends are friends with them as a couple and he didn't want them to think poorly of her for what she did, or poorly of him if he decided to stay. He expressed that they had always had issues and never been perfect, but that he had loved her and thought he was going to spend the rest of his life with her. We were still platonic up to this point; I realized it was dubious territory with him opening up to me about his relationship, but I opened up to him about my boy situations (albeit I wasn't committed to anyone at the time, just dating). I also kept in mind that there were likely two sides to this story. He slept on the couch a lot of nights.

 

We went out for drinks on a somewhat regular basis, usually alone, but a few times meeting up with his friends, my friends, and his girlfriend. His girlfriend always knew when we were getting drinks alone and I saw her texts saying she was fine with it. She knew about me and we got along well. She seemed to really like me, but was absolutely horrible to him. He's got a very good job and is well respected in my office and though she knew I worked for him, she was openly disdainful about his job, repeatedly saying in front of everyone that she doesn't even know what he does. I later find out that he pays for almost everything for them, which makes it seem worse that she is expressing such disrespect about his work when it provides for her. He kind of laughed it off and tried to be sweet to her all night but she wanted nothing to do with it. She'd be glued to her phone and repeatedly put him down. It didn't make sense to me at all. I thought I might just be biased based on knowing the history of her cheating, but my friends who witnessed it too actually brought it up to me on their own, saying they didn't understand why anyone would act that way to their SO in front of their friends and coworkers. I asked him what he did that made her so angry toward him and he said that she doesn't express her emotions very well and often lashes out in anger or sweeps things under the rug instead of being able to talk about what is wrong between them. He said it's just how she is and he's grown to accept it. She still would refuse to talk to him about what happened with the guy she cheated with. None of it adds up to me as to why he would stay under these conditions.

 

A few months later, he finally opens up to me about why he has stayed. He feels the cheating is his fault because during a very stressful period in his life a few years ago, he had trouble with ED. His girlfriends response was anger and frustration, which only made it worse and over time, she would reject his advances when he would want sex and it spiraled for them into rarely having sex and also never talking about it. He felt immense guilt over this and blamed himself for not being able to satisfy her, but also hadresentment for how she handled it. Whenever he tried to talk about it with her, she would say it's his fault they aren't having sex because he doesn't try hard enough.

 

It was around this time that I started developing serious feelings for him. We still hadn't actually done anything physical, but our emotional connection was definitely in emotional affair territory. No "I love yous" or anything like that, but a definite acknowledgment of how important we are to each other and how much we appreciate each other. I had fallen hard, but was trying to keep my friend boundary because it felt more important to me to have him in my life as a friend then get involved when he was still with her. A few months ago, he went away for a weekend with her and we didn't talk much. I was doing my own thing that weekend (throughout this time I was still dating other people) and I thought it weird he kept wanting to text me and see what I was up to while he was on a weekend away with her. He came back from that weekend and said he knew he's had growing feelings for me the past 9 months but that weekend, he overwhelmingly found himself missing me and wondering what I was up to.

 

The next week we kissed. And then it became a real ****storm. We decided after we kissed that he needed to figure out what he's doing before anything can come of us. We attempted space but only lasted days at a time over the course of a month and ended up kissing one other time that month. Then, later that month, we had sex. And it was amazing. We immediately agreed to take space because we realized we were fooling ourselves thinking we could be friends while he figures his **** out. We last three days of space and he tells me he told her what happened and told her he wanted to move out because he wasn't happy with her and hadn't been in a long time. He tells me he thinks he's in love with me and that he hadn't thought it was possible for him to feel this way anymore.

 

At this point, I should have continued space, but I got caught up in the fact that he actually seemed to be making a change, and so quickly. She wanted to work things out. She told him she didn't care that he had had sex with me, she didn't want their lifestyle to change and she wanted to try to work on it. He starts sleeping on the couch, but doesn't move out (this is 2 months ago). We again tumultuously go back to space, lasting only a few days at a time before deciding on space again. We both are in agreement that we are too emotionally invested for where he is at right now, considering he is still living with her and has understandably unresolved feelings about leaving. Personally, I don't think he ever really dealt with the pain of her cheating. I think he found me around the same time and was able to use how he felt with me as a band aid for the devastation he felt about the loss of his relationship to her cheating. During this time, he's open with her about the situation and how he feels and his confusion. A couple weeks ago, we again go to space and last almost a week this time when he texts me to ask if I am done. I ask why and he says he officially broke up with her for good and went to a hotel. He said he wasn't asking me to meet him, but he wanted to know if he was insane or if I felt this way, too. Again, stupidly, I go to the hotel instead of sticking to space because I had missed him.

 

She asks him to talk and tells him she wants to get back together. That she again doesn't care what has happened with me and she wants to keep their life they've built together. She wants him to move across the country with her and forget their problems here. He says he won't do that. She also says she's fine with me still being in his life, which is insane to me because that's not functional for anyone. He tells me he doesn't feel in love with her anymore, but he feels guilty for how he's handled everything, how he's treated two people he purports to care about and we again agree that space is the only way anything positive will come of us. He said he wants to make sure no stone is unturned in making sure he feels there is nothing left between them anymore so he doesn't jump into something with me before he is ready or like things were unresolved with her. He obviously can't actually see if there is nothing left to their relationship with me in the picture, because quite honestly I think I make his relationship bearable for him and my presence makes him complacent. I don't want to be involved in their break up, and I don't want him to break up because of pressure from me. We said goodbye on good terms, but he left it as goodbye "for now." Logically, I know this is obviously the right choice and I am not worried about being the one to break NC.

 

I guess my question here is this: given his past behavior of not being able to last very long before breaking no contact and telling me he's made another Chang, at what point is it okay for me to pursue this with him again? What boundaries should I be setting? To me, even though they are officially broken up right now, I am not comfortable with him living with her even if he is sleeping on the couch. (I have no reason to disbelieve him but I realize it is naive of me to blindly believe this is true. He also claims they have not had she's since we first did. This I believe partially because of their pre-existing intimacy issues and also because he told her about us hooking up right away.) So for me, he would need to be moved out. But for how long? That's the part I'm unsure of. I would rather have these boundaries in my mind figured out now so I'm not likely to just get swept away by whatever small change he may make if he decides to contact me again.

 

Additionally, am I being completely naive thinking this means something to him? Should I even be open to this if he comes back around saying he's ready or do you guys believe that once a cheater, always a cheater? I've never cheated, but I am wary of his ability to cheat on someone else. He and I have discussed this and he doesn't have any other history of cheating. He says he recognizes it will be hard for me to trust him seeing how he has handled things with his girlfriend, even though I have never caught him in a lie to me (if anything he is at times too open), and that he has no doubt in his mind that once he finds himself in a place to be with me wholeheartedly that he would be completely devoted to me and willing to take the time and energy required to prove that to me with his actions.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Opinions? I feel like a cliche. Is this a lost cause of am I just afraid of getting hurt and trying to cut my loses to soon on something I have never felt so strongly about before? I don't plan to wait in the sense of not seeing other people during this time. I just don't know if I should still be open to this if/when he comes back around and is "ready" or if him being ready is even realistic or just my wishful thinking. Thank you for reading.

[minimariah]

the "once a cheater - always a cheater" definitly isn't true.

 

but the problem here - he never really chose you. he had a perfect exit and didn't use it. not to mention that nothing ties him to the girlfriend, i don't believe the guilt excuse = he's staying because he really wants to.

 

you said they were officially broken up but it seems like they're trying to make it work without you in the picture - so, i'm not really sure how much can you count on this man wanting you over the girlfriend anyway.

 

be careful. it's a super bad sign when a dude stalls with a simple relationship. i would understand if it was marriage with kids but after all the mess he still wants to make it work with the girlfriend...? i don't think you're his priority.

[Confused7765]

That has been my thought, too. I appreciate the response.

[minimariah]

That has been my thought, too. I appreciate the response.

 

if you're really in love with him and really feel like you both have something you can work with here... then pick a timeline for yourself and follow it.

 

like, give yourself a month. give him space. if after that month - he does not reach out to you; you reach out to him. just saying hello, asking how is he & what are his plans in his love life. only accept a direct answer - single, wanna be with you OR i'm with the girlfriend.

 

protect yourself but if you want to really be with him - then you can wait it out a little longer - a period of time you're comfortable with.

 

you should know everything soon, when the dust settles.

[Confused7765]

Thank you. That seems reasonable. I worry about contacting him first on my own timetable and ending up back in this same situation if he's not ready yet. My feeling is that as soon as he does feel ready, he will reach out to me and I don't want to set that process of his back by interfering. I think you're right about setting a timeline for myself to still be open, but my feeling is a month of space likely won't be enough. Thank you again for your response.

[minimariah]

Thank you. That seems reasonable. I worry about contacting him first on my own timetable and ending up back in this same situation if he's not ready yet. My feeling is that as soon as he does feel ready, he will reach out to me and I don't want to set that process of his back by interfering. I think you're right about setting a timeline for myself to still be open, but my feeling is a month of space likely won't be enough. Thank you again for your response.

 

yeah, you definitely have a point. of course, choose a time frame you think is appropriate. either way - if you feel he's worth it... try. but also give yourself a limit you'll willing to wait on him - let's say... not more than 5 months. if he doesn't reach out - move on. (doesn't have to be 5 months, just giving a random number).

 

my point is - watch out for yourself first.

 

i re read your post and i'm guessing this is his first serious relationship? like SERIOUS? then it's understandable that he wants to make it work again. not all is bad looking though - he did break up with her.

[Confused7765]

Much appreciated advice.

[Confused7765]

It is his first and only serious relationship. The space was initiated by me, because I am not going to play a pick me dance with someone and I felt my own guilt about being involved like this in something I have no business in. But he agreed with the space for the reasons I outlined above. I think if I hadn't initiated it, he would have continued to see me but tell her about it and it would have become an even bigger mess. Part of me is surprised he is able to be brazen with her like that about how he feels about me and the other wonders if part of him wants her to feel as badly as he did when she cheated. I get the sense he felt undesired and bad about himself in this relationship for a long time. I'm a little worried about that baggage and his general passivity going into a relationship with him, tbh. I do feel in love with him, but I also don't want to be blind to writing that's on the wall. I really have never felt this way with anyone before, and he says its reciprocated but honestly I sort of doubt he has any clue what he wants right now.

[NewLeaf512]

Hi Confused,

 

I have surmised from your post that you are a thoughtful and caring person. Your story has similarities to Yodels on this subforum.

 

He may come back to you but I think probably not, and certainly not if you keep dipping in and out of his life. It's hard to say if this Is co-dependence, he likes being humiliated, he is unsure of what he wants or goodness knows how many other permutations of "I'm not leaving" are out there.

 

I'm sorry this has happened as you seem like a nice woman. For me, however it boils down to simply this: there is no impediment to leaving. No kids, no marriage, lack of physicality, finances are in good order, and she's cheated on him first. That doesn't make him any better by the way, but, he isn't beholden to her.

 

He chose her. He was out and away from a woman who humiliated him about his p (male organ) and verbally emasculated him, and withholds sex (if he is to be believed). Crazy in my book but he did it.

 

You do not want to be with a weak man who keeps running back into that. You deserve someone amazing.

[Confused7765]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

[sandylee1]

Tell him ONLY to contact you when he's done with her for good and isn't going back. That's not to say you should wait him and you should tell him this so that he doesn't accuse you of letting him believe you'd be waiting.

 

Suggest that he might want to consider therapy to work through this.

[Confused7765]

The first few times we took space, that was my condition: that he only contact me when it was done. To be honest, I think he's grown sort of codependent in his own way on me, in a different way than he is codependent on his relationship and that also worries me for us having a potentially healthy relationship in the future. Whenever we did take space the last couple months previous to this time, he has a very hard time dealing with it, cries, tells her he wants nothing to do with her because he misses me, and then makes some "change" of getting a hotel or breaking up "for good" and I foolishly have taken these to be true tokens of change when they clearly aren't. So, I told him this time around not to contact me if he moves out or if he is permanently done, but to contact me if/when he finds himself ready for a relationship with me. I just find myself doubting at this point if I will be able to recognize what him being ready means, because he doesn't seem to have a good idea of it himself.

 

The therapy suggestion is a good idea and one that if we were to pursue a relationship, I would insist on.

[Confused7765]

I also did tell him I wasn't waiting, but my feeling is him knowing that is part of why he freaks out every time we take space, because he is worried about losing me. Ain't nobody got time for that, though. I want to give myself some time to focus on myself and soul search a little about how I even got into this mess, but I am definitely not waiting and he knows.

[Ms. Faust]

You also have to bear in mind that you don't know the full scope of their financial entanglement. You only know what he has told you, and people will omit things that don't look good in their favor, especially in regards to their finances. You also don't know the full scope of what they went through with his ED. I can very much see that having two sides to a story.

 

But most of all, being that they have no ties he can have a very easy break and he has the chance. I am also not buying the guilt thing. I think there is more to it. I smell possibly bigger financial issues than what he has let on.

 

Just going off your story, I would surmise you two are on unequal footing: You are falling for him. He is having a revenge affair. No matter how she treats him, these two may be a good match for each other.

 

More often than not you should go by their actions. If he leaves then good on him. If he stays, well then, maybe he is not as miserable as he lets on.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Ms. Faust

[Confused7765]

I agree with you on all of those points. He did express guilt about not wanting to leave her without a home because he makes significantly more than she does, but my feeling is that a lot of this is about appearances.

 

I've broached the subject with him about him having a revenge affair and he gets very upset that I feel that way. Truthfully, I think to some degree it is definitely the case, but I also think he is good at compartmentalizing and has a hard time coming to terms with the fact that he's acting in ways that are blatantly hurtful to everyone involved. He would rather see himself as someone who got caught up in feelings he couldn't help for someone else than a bitter betrayed boyfriend getting back at his girlfriend who broke his heart.

 

That said, I do think he finds it easier to talk to me than he ever has with others, because he's very introverted and I have been told I have a tendency to draw people's emotions out easily. I think that plays a lot into how important he believes this is to him, but I do question if a lot of that would go away if we actually were in a relationship and I wonder if he'd become passive aggressive/emotionally withholding as he has been in his relationship. Thank you for your response.

[Confused7765]

As for your question about the women who fall for these men, I honestly don't know haha. I think a big part of it was that I knew him as a more confident person in the work setting and so I have that as how I knew him first in my mind and then all of the other weaker aspects of his personality came out later, and seemingly had situational reasons behind them (her cheating, etc). With time I've had less patience for these attributes of his because they do seem more inherent to his personality now than they did when we first were getting to know each other. He's definitely in control of what he's doing here, but doesn't seem to feel that way for whatever reason. He has agency, but seems more comfortable believing he is stuck. Troublesome approaches to life, for sure.

[Ms. Faust]

I agree with you on all of those points. He did express guilt about not wanting to leave her without a home because he makes significantly more than she does, but my feeling is that a lot of this is about appearances.

 

I've broached the subject with him about him having a revenge affair and he gets very upset that I feel that way....

 

Hmmm, sounds like he has convinced himself that it was a coincidence that he hit you up right when he found out his girl was cheating.

And rubs his affair in her face.

 

I have read a similar story on another forum. Girl cheats, boyfriend runs out, he starts cheating. She's going insane trying to keep the relationship together, he's openly talking to the OW on his phone, being malicious.

 

I hate to go the cliche "talk to the wife" route, but have you talked to her and gotten her side?

Edited December 20, 2015 by Ms. Faust

[Ms. Faust]

As for your question about the women who fall for these men, I honestly don't know haha. I think a big part of it was that I knew him as a more confident person in the work setting and so I have that as how I knew him first in my mind and then all of the other weaker aspects of his personality came out later, and seemingly had situational reasons behind them (her cheating, etc). With time I've had less patience for these attributes of his because they do seem more inherent to his personality now than they did when we first were getting to know each other. He's definitely in control of what he's doing here, but doesn't seem to feel that way for whatever reason. He has agency, but seems more comfortable believing he is stuck. Troublesome approaches to life, for sure.

 

He and his partner are embedded in Dramaland, and you are part of the casualty.

[Confused7765]

He absolutely thinks it was a coincidence he asked me to drinks a couple weeks after he found out about her affair. I have confronted him about that many times and he insists that it was because he had mentioned getting drinks prior to that (which he had, but had taken no action on it). I honestly feel like he often times has a hard time even acknowledging his own emotions to himself and he suppresses uncomfortable ones and then takes actions in line with how he really feels but doesn't always consciously realize that's what he is doing.

 

I have met her a few times but only when he and I were aboveboard and not since all of this has come to light. I considered messaging her and just telling her I was willing to answer any questions she had because I know he has lied to her about certain things, and if I were in her position, I would want someone to reach out to me, but I didn't trust myself that I would be doing it for the right reasons, and her personality is very private and I didn't want to invade her space. She knows where I am if she wants to find me or ask me any questions. Additionally, they are technically broken up right now so I felt like messaging her during this time seemed selfish of me.

[Confused7765]

He and his partner are embedded in Dramaland, and you are part of the casualty.

 

1000% in agreement on that one.

[privategal]

The confusion of the on again off again cycle is tarnishing any ounce of a healthy dynamic you have. Its too easy to come back from the breaks so he doesn't sweat them or fear losing you.

He also needs to sort things with her which he cant do with some of his heart with you.

You gotta cut him out 100% with no exceptions but with a clean, clear breakup with her and zero chance for reconciling.

Its the only way.

[Confused7765]

I agree with you. That's where we are at right now and I don't have any questions about that, but my question is more how do I actually know when he's ready? He seemed ready before when he broke up with her and he maintains he has no intention of getting back together, but we both agree that my being involved while he works out his feelings on the end of his relationship isn't going to be good on either side. At what point do I actually agree to give it a shot with him? I guess I don't totally trust that he will know if he truly is.

[Confused7765]

I read that wrong and thought you meant there should be zero chance for him to reconcile with me. I agree with you about it only working with a clean break for him and I until he has a clean break with her and no chance for reconciling. I feel like it will probably take him some time after that to figure his feelings out and mourn the relationship, though. I don't really want to be a rebound, though I feel like that is out of my control at this point.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Confused7765

[Ms. Faust]

I agree with you. That's where we are at right now and I don't have any questions about that, but my question is more how do I actually know when he's ready? .

 

When he moves out or kicks her out and says "I'm ready to be with you".

 

Even then I would still take it slow.

[Confused7765]

I agree. I think taking it slow would be the only way to go at this point.