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Too interdependent and tied up to leave; too messed up in heads and hearts to stay


Empty-1

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TL-DR - too intertwined, interdependent, and tied up to leave, but too messed up in the heads and hearts to stay.

 

 

So my wife and I have a very complicated past. We've been together for 20 years this summer. Neither of us has been perfect.

 

When we were dating, she was coming off of a long term and unhealthy relationship. She and her ex never really "ended" their relationship, she just sort of started dating me instead. A few weeks into our relationship, I could tell something was bothering her, something was "off" and I pressured her to tell me what was the matter. As it turned out, she had slept with her Ex. I told her at the time that it was a forgivable error after the roller coaster of a relationship they had, but that it was not to happen again.

 

 

Later in our dating life, we had a threesome with another dude. This happened a couple of times, but I had made it clear to both of them that this was not open permission for them to screw around on the side. They did, but I was in the dark for years. I found a semi confused love letter she wrote to him but had never given him and confronted her with it. She swore it was just based on the threesome, and that she couldn't separate sex and emotion, and that she didn't deliver it because she only wrote it to get a handle on her own emotions, but that it was me she chose.

 

We married partially because she was pregnant with my first son. Shortly into our marriage, when our eldest was about a year old, she began to act very awkward, shy, and reserved around another friend of ours. It turned out that she was very attracted to him. Her and I had been having much less sex since the baby, and I was at my wits end.

 

I decided that if this was what re-awakening desire meant, they could try one another for awhile, under the express condition that I had final veto power, and if I decided I couldn't handle it anymore, it would end immediately. They both agreed. a couple of months later, when I couldn't stomach the jealousy, I asked that it end. It didn't, at least not right away. She needed to end it "on her terms" so she could "find closure".

 

It was during the aftermath of that situation that I found out about the carrying on between her and the previous guy. Some couple of years later, she discovered her ex (the same guy she had been with before me) was on an instant message system. She wouldn't let me in the room when they were chatting, nor let me read any log of their chats. We had moved several states away, though, so I didn't think it would be that big of a deal.

 

 

 

However, one night, she left the chat client running on the computer, and I was online. He messaged, thinking it was her. The conversation that followed was very illuminating, in that he was chatting semi-dirty. Not quite what we would call sexting, but full of obvious innuendo and reference. When I confronted her with it, she said she didn't tell me because "She was dealing with it" and she didn't want this drama over what was essentially nothing.

 

By this time, I was growing quite tired of always feeling like I had the short end of the stick, and so I started frequenting some of the porn shops in our area. I discovered what a glory hole is in one such visit, and got a BJ through that. I told her about it. Obviously, she wasn't pleased, but she had very little to say about it overall because of the **** she had put me through.

 

Since the birth of our first kid, her sex drive had almost disappeared. This issue has over the years been the cause of incredible friction, fighting, embarrassing jokes, and eventually sullen resentment. When our youngest (third) was about 2 years old, I asked her for permission to find someone to mess around with as repayment for the combination of her infidelities and lack of sex at home. She agreed, and I hooked up with a girl I met online.

 

This turned out to be one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made. The rule was sex outside the marriage HAD to be with a condom. However, as soon as I put the condom on, I lost my erection. I tried with this girl I met online three or four times, but as soon as the condom went on, I went soft. That is an unbelievably emasculating experience.

 

 

We decided that sex outside of our relationship was just more trouble and pain than it was worth, and we endeavored to forgive the past and help one another heal. Or so I thought.

 

Several (3-5 or so) years later, between our 9th and 10th anniversary, I felt something "off" again. Strangely, one of the red flags this time was a sudden increase in our sex lives. She wanted sex more often, and seemed more into it than she had since we were dating. in my panic, I messed up the order of operations, letting her know too soon, without proof, that I suspected something. She got better about hiding it. I did eventually uncover hard evidence that she was sleeping with my sister's husband.

 

That blew up in ways neither of us foresaw. Ten years of infidelity, pain, mistrust, and self loathing came pouring all of its poison into our lives all at once. I tried a couple of times to see if I could die (coward's pseudo-suicide), I screamed, ranted, raved, tried to leave a couple of times, recriminated, called her foul names, threatened him, it was bad.

 

For the record, I never threatened her, nor raised a hand to her, nor gave her any reason to fear for her own safety or that of the children. She and he carried on some months after I discovered. We spent that whole summer in Limbo. It was hellish.

 

After that, I had a couple of dalliances of my own. Being less than attractive, I had to resort to the charm of the ever reliable Mr. Franklin to secure erotic satisfaction. This idiotic activity, of course left me feeling cheap, dirty, hypocritical, and afraid I may have attracted disease. I got tested and am healthy (thankfully). After discovering how bad that left me feeling, I won't be going back to that sort of thing, but there it is, I'm a lying cheating bastard too. Her affair with the sister's husband (now Ex, and there's even more drama there) ended ten years ago this coming summer.

 

We are still together for more than the "usual" reasons. here's the rub:

 

1: I made a promise. Her infidelity does not release me from that promise. I said "For better or worse, till death do us part" and I meant it when I said it. Just because "For worse" arrived doesn't mean I'm suddenly off the hook.

 

2: I'm not perfect. I screwed up too. I went and met the girl from online. I got a BJ in a glory hole, and most recently, I had a couple of one off's with hired help. I even kept the last one a secret.

 

3: In addition to "For the kids" there's real logistics to consider that most couples don't have. Our careers are inseparably intertwined - we're self employed independent contractors. Our clients, software licenses, business affairs, everything is all intertwined as deeply as our personal lives. Untying the logistics knot alone would be a complicated mess which would have an irreversibly negative impact on our career positions.

 

4: Our eldest is now in College, and we can barely afford the family contribution portion because financial aid isn't covering everything. I am not even remotely willing to jeopardize his college standing financially by starting to blow this monstrous situation up.

 

5: Our kids are 2 years apart, so our middle son will be in school before our eldest graduates, and our youngest will start the year after our eldest graduates, but before our middle son does.

 

6: Her brother is the best friend I have. By far. I met her through him. He is aware of most of the situation, and doesn't hold my resentment against me, instead has stood firmly by my side, helping me handle the emotional turmoil, and he was quite incensed with his sister for how she treated me. However, blood being thicker than water, I stand to lose touch with a great friend if this all goes down.

 

All of that being said, I am starting to get "That feeling" that "Something is off". I don't want to go through this roller coaster again, but I am now afraid that I've signaled nothing to her over the years that says she shouldn't just keep cheating. I have, in essence, put up with it. Even though the last one went real bad. She swears that after the last time, the idea of sex with anyone else is so far from her mind ever again that she can't even conceive of it. Nonetheless, I now am starting to have suspicion again.

 

Over the last few years, I've had a few suspicious moments. Whenever we talk about that she tries to be supportive, but insists I am "Fighting the last war" - so caught up in what happened before that I am making up reasons to believe it is happening again.

 

Yeah, I am a mess. If anyone made it this far, thanks for reading. She's out with a lady friend right now (I was there for the invite, and have no reason to suspect this particular lady) and I am feeling alone, suspicious, rejected, and quite self loathing. I just felt like I should get this off my chest, even if only anonymously online.

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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1: I made a promise. Her infidelity does not release me from that promise. I said "For better or worse, till death do us part" and I meant it when I said it. Just because "For worse" arrived doesn't mean I'm suddenly off the hook.

 

6: Her brother is the best friend I have. By far. I met her through him. He is aware of most of the situation, and doesn't hold my resentment against me, instead has stood firmly by my side, helping me handle the emotional turmoil, and he was quite incensed with his sister for how she treated me. However, blood being thicker than water, I stand to lose touch with a great friend if this all goes down.

 

, I am a mess. If anyone made it this far, thanks for reading. She's out with a lady friend right now (I was there for the invite, and have no reason to suspect this particular lady) and I am feeling alone, suspicious, rejected, and quite self loathing. I just felt like I should get this off my chest, even if only anonymously online.

 

You are one of the most incredibly naive person I've seen. You think she might be cheating sgain? Bud, she never stopped. I doubt very seriously if you'll do anything if she is.

 

You've made an incredible amount of excuses to stay in this. You seem to want to be a martyr. Why?

 

What are you looking for?

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Wow. What am I waiting for? I could psychoanalyze myself to death trying to answer that question.

 

 

I guess I am waiting to believe that being a 40 year old fat bald loser hurts less alone, being rejected by female kind generally than it does married and being cheated on by just one woman.

 

 

You're probably right. There've probably been several other men, and I probably wouldn't do anything about it, even if I knew. I as much showed her that by not throwing her out on her ear long ago. I guess being the martyr is somehow tied up in my own self worth. Or maybe I don't have any self worth at all, and really believe that this is all I deserve.

 

 

It's complicated, and if you think it's all just excuses then you really don't understand these dynamics anywhere near as well as you pretend to. With the boys in college, an upset to our careers on the scale a divorce would cause at this point could really screw them over.

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Wow. What am I waiting for? I could psychoanalyze myself to death trying to answer that question.

 

 

I guess I am waiting to believe that being a 40 year old fat bald loser hurts less alone, being rejected by female kind generally than it does married and being cheated on by just one woman.

 

 

You're probably right. There've probably been several other men, and I probably wouldn't do anything about it, even if I knew. I as much showed her that by not throwing her out on her ear long ago. I guess being the martyr is somehow tied up in my own self worth. Or maybe I don't have any self worth at all, and really believe that this is all I deserve.

 

 

It's complicated, and if you think it's all just excuses then you really don't understand these dynamics anywhere near as well as you pretend to. With the boys in college, an upset to our careers on the scale a divorce would cause at this point could really screw them over.

 

I have a friend who is balding and not slim who attracts women. Not sure how but he does.,..

 

You have control over weight and your self esteem/worth. Everyone has value. Whether you use it or not is up to you.

 

You want to live your life for everyone else that's totally up to you. Just remember it is your choice to do so. It's not a commandment.

 

Staying in the victim chair is a choice you make. No one is forcing you to do that.

 

You should download and read "No More Mr Nice Guy" it's a short free PDF.

 

It may give you a new perspective.

 

I'm bald. I watch my diet. I'm doing just fine. You could too.

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I'm in finance and well aware of implications a divorce can bring. I worked and paid my way thru college 100%.

 

I also know how short life is. You choose your life. No one does that for you.

 

All you're doing is justifying staying in this because you don't want to even look at a better way out. It's easy that way. You don't have to make a decision you just stay and take what you're given.

 

But you're here for a reason aren't you?

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You and your wife both seem, if not selfish, at least self oriented.

 

When my wife and I began to get serious, she said to me “there will be three entities in our marriage - you, me and the relationship. If you can’t support the relationship, don’t marry me”.

 

Who’s looking out for your relationship? She’s sleeping with in-laws, you’re hooking up with prostitutes - who’s minding the marital store?

 

With three kids, lots at stake here. You both have some decisions to make about life going forward - in or out of the marriage? Unless there’s some desire to truly commit to each other, you’ll simply be wasting more years. Time for an honest discussion...

 

Mr. Lucky

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If the roles were reversed, would your wife be so passive and accepting as you?

I guess that you just don't care about possible receiving an STD.

Is this really the best role model for your children?

 

Nobody respects a doormat. If you do not respect yourself then who will?

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Wow. Just wow. Let's start with the fat, bald loser comment. Says who, besides you? There is no committee that decides that. If you emote like that, then you send that vibe. I have a friend of many years, north of 300 lbs, bald, round and not particularly good looking as I, a hetero dude, can judge. Dude gets ALL types of women. He is not trolling for 20 something fitness models either, but that'd be weird as he's in his early 50's now. Bottom line, he's confident in himself, flirts, makes his move, and goes where the women are. Older women are awesome. Big women, little women, dude....women are awesome in all of their iterations. tldr: get your mind right about you and what is out there.

 

This relationship dynamic is unhealthy and you called it. Fix your mind and then you can solve that problem and the solution may be to end it.

 

As for your Knight of the Round table declaration about taking your vows seriously, etc. Yeah, no awards for that line. It is just a way to hide. Her breaking of her vows breaks the contract. Marriage is a contract, like legally. Breach of contract terminates it. You can hang on, but call it what it is, and it is not noble or faithful or honoring vows. It is fear. It is normal, but it is fear. Also, most vows I heard also included the line" so long as you both are faithful" or something similar.

 

Just stop doing everything that you are doing right now. Get yourself a counselor to deal with your self esteem issues and codependency and fear, then revisit this relationship. Also, I seriously doubt that a fat bald loser, as you described yourself, is married to a beauty queen. So, either you are not FBL or you are an average middle aged dude married to an average middle aged woman who is also a cheater.

 

BTW, as a dude I can say that there is genuinely no woman that SOME man would not have sex with if given the chance. Fat, balding, amputation, ugly, it does not matter some guy will sleep with her, thus, she ain't a prize, she is just available. You are in love with a run of the mill cheater.

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Unfortunately, the time to bail from this marriage was 20 years ago...

 

You are now standing in the middle of the wreckage, trying to figure out which way to go...

 

Tough situations require tough decisions. I’m sorry that you found yourself here.

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PhillyLibertyBelle
I have a friend who is balding and not slim who attracts women. Not sure how but he does.,..

 

You have control over weight and your self esteem/worth. Everyone has value. Whether you use it or not is up to you.

 

You want to live your life for everyone else that's totally up to you. Just remember it is your choice to do so. It's not a commandment.

 

Staying in the victim chair is a choice you make. No one is forcing you to do that.

 

You should download and read "No More Mr Nice Guy" it's a short free PDF.

 

It may give you a new perspective.

 

I'm bald. I watch my diet. I'm doing just fine. You could too.

 

Bald is sexy. Even some teddy bear shaped guys are sexy.

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You are not any more entangled then any other couple who has been married for 20+ years. The lawyers can sort this out

 

You have been married for so long. Change is scary & you rightly understand this will effect your kids but given the sorry state of your marriage you can't stick around just to put the kids through college. They will find a way.

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op,

It sounds to me like this relationship has caused you to lose yourself. You sound almost as if you are talking about someone else.

 

To me, that indicates you know this situation is wrong for you, it's not healthy and you will eventually be little more than a husk...a shell of who you really are.

Your wife won't change who she is. She's just not a monogamous person. To me, the idea of being with more than one person at a time is upsetting and , well, gross. That is who I am at my fundamental core, and it sounds to me like you could be too. Your wife is different. For whatever reason, she seems to need that "extra".

 

 

In your shoes, my first call would be to a lawyer. Find out were you stand. I would also have my kids DNA tested, just in case. Not so much for you, but for their own peace of mind. Trust me when I tell you it's really disheartening to not know that, or worse, to find out you have been lied to, and with the advances in genetics and an increasing knowledge of how they affect your overall health, you could be doing them a huge favor.

 

 

 

Also, please stop being so down on yourself. There are lots of women in your age bracket who would give their eye teeth to meet a man who is loyal and trustworthy...someone who would treat them well. That sounds like you, but the key is for you to find a women who will return your affection, kindness and fidelity. You have so much to offer.

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somanymistakes
Get your kids dna tested - you have no way of knowing if you are technically their father.

 

Don't do this unless you want to shatter your children's hearts and souls. Knowing that you wanted to get rid of them will absolutely destroy them.

 

If you want to know for medical reasons, then talk to the kids about it and let it be their choice.

 

But if you test your children just to find out if you can avoid supporting them? At that point it doesn't matter if they turn out to be yours or not, you have murdered their trust.

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Okay, so. Possibly you're confusing 'interdependent' with 'codependent' -- Google for the definitions of both terms, just to be sure that YOU are on the right page.

I guess I am waiting to believe that being a 40 year old fat bald loser hurts less alone, being rejected by female kind generally than it does married and being cheated on by just one woman.

NOBODY 'waits to believe' something.

You either do, currently, believe that, OR you don't. Thinking that what you believe isn't something that you already decided is only deceiving yourself, or self-delusional.

I guess being the martyr is somehow tied up in my own self worth. Or maybe I don't have any self worth at all, and really believe that this is all I deserve.
The desire and choice to be a martyr definitely has something to do with your own self-worth and sense of what you do (and do not) deserve in this world.

Rather than try to psychoanalyze yourself, which is very difficult if not impossible, would you consider hiring a professional to help you?

 

If you could come around to helping yourself, then it would also help all the other dynamics that are at play.

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Don't do this unless you want to shatter your children's hearts and souls. Knowing that you wanted to get rid of them will absolutely destroy them.

 

If you want to know for medical reasons, then talk to the kids about it and let it be their choice.

 

But if you test your children just to find out if you can avoid supporting them? At that point it doesn't matter if they turn out to be yours or not, you have murdered their trust.

 

I never said to tell them - and I didn’t infer that he abandon them.

 

He wouldn’t have to change a thing - but knowing for sure if he is or isn’t biologically related is info he should have when discussing reality with his wife.

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Well, you folks have given me quite a lot to think about. I am doing some severe navel gazing and trying to figure out where I stand on a lot of what has been said.

 

I wonder, though, if I haven't been too focused on the negative when describing the situation. These events all transcribed as I described, but it's not like it all happened in a 5 year timeframe. 20 years is a long time, and there were long stretches between incidents. Most recently, since the brother in law affair, it has been a full 10 years (minus a month or two). Over that decade, there have been a few times where my suspicion meter got its ears up, but I am also aware that I am prone to paranoia and over suspicion now that I have been through that ringer.

 

There was a comment posted about us both being self oriented and not paying attention to the relationship. It's quite funny that you should mention that, as it was exactly the conclusion I came to after my own dalliance. Before hand, I felt entitled to "even the score" and have my own fun, since she obviously didn't hesitate. Afterwards, though, I just felt selfish and cheapened. Since then, I've been trying to stay oriented in the relationship.

 

I posted the OP when I was feeling very suspicious and removed. I have since then been taking measures to discover whether my suspicion is warranted. In the off chance that she reads these forums (which I doubt, but you never really know) I won't spell them out in detail here, but they are the same sorts of detective work that is commonly recommended to suspicious spouses around here.

 

No, I have no intention of having my kids DNA tested. In truth, it doesn't really matter at this point. The youngest is 14. They've grown into fine, strong young men, and I wouldn't want to inject something to resent. My relationship with each of them is now quite independent of what may or may not happen between her and I. If they were much younger, I would probably consider it. That was even one of the sticking points in the earth shaking fights we had in the fallout of the brother in law affair.

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Most recently, since the brother in law affair, it has been a full 10 years (minus a month or two).

 

While that may be true, what prevents her - or both of you - from repeating the same behaviors and acting out in the same way?

 

To me, that's the central issue. You should see if she wants to do the work to have a healthy marriage with you or a single life on her own.

 

I can't imagine living the rest of my days in the paranoid and suspicious limbo you currently describe...

 

Mr. Lucky

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Well, you folks have given me quite a lot to think about. I am doing some severe navel gazing and trying to figure out where I stand on a lot of what has been said.

 

I wonder, though, if I haven't been too focused on the negative when describing the situation. These events all transcribed as I described, but it's not like it all happened in a 5 year timeframe. 20 years is a long time, and there were long stretches between incidents. Most recently, since the brother in law affair, it has been a full 10 years (minus a month or two). Over that decade, there have been a few times where my suspicion meter got its ears up, but I am also aware that I am prone to paranoia and over suspicion now that I have been through that ringer.

 

There was a comment posted about us both being self oriented and not paying attention to the relationship. It's quite funny that you should mention that, as it was exactly the conclusion I came to after my own dalliance. Before hand, I felt entitled to "even the score" and have my own fun, since she obviously didn't hesitate. Afterwards, though, I just felt selfish and cheapened. Since then, I've been trying to stay oriented in the relationship.

 

I posted the OP when I was feeling very suspicious and removed. I have since then been taking measures to discover whether my suspicion is warranted. In the off chance that she reads these forums (which I doubt, but you never really know) I won't spell them out in detail here, but they are the same sorts of detective work that is commonly recommended to suspicious spouses around here.

 

No, I have no intention of having my kids DNA tested. In truth, it doesn't really matter at this point. The youngest is 14. They've grown into fine, strong young men, and I wouldn't want to inject something to resent. My relationship with each of them is now quite independent of what may or may not happen between her and I. If they were much younger, I would probably consider it. That was even one of the sticking points in the earth shaking fights we had in the fallout of the brother in law affair.

 

You seem to want to put your head in the sand and ignore everything unhealthy within this (so called) marriage.

 

We can’t help you at all as long as you don’t intend to do anything differently to change this farce of a marriage.

 

20 years is a long time to waste on someone who betrays you repeatedly.

 

There is NO trust in this marriage = there is no union (trusting Commited relationship).

 

You’re in this alone... you know that right?

 

As long as you go along with all the crap it will continue to be a crappy marriage.

 

Think long and hard - 20,30,40,50 more years of wondering.. that’s what you’re agreeing to by continuing with the status quo. Your wife doesn’t respect or honor you.

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