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She still won't give up.


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Remember me? Of course you do. I pop in once and a while just for the heck of it. Remember my story? It's definitely somewhere here. I'm the sorry sod that actually made it out of infidelity. I D'd my WW and it was clean, clinical and with little hassle (who am I kidding???)

 

Well, last year I came on this site and told people my story. My ex wanted to get back together and had been relentlessly pursuing me ever since the D. I asked people if I should give it a shot. I was informed to 'Run Forest, run!' and never look back. Great advice, as it allowed me to cut her completely out of my life and 'play the field', so to speak. Got my mojo back. I actually had no idea how many woman were just available to 'have fun' and nothing else. It felt great for a time. And then I got bored of the whole friends with benefits gig.

 

Mind you, I hadn't talked to my ex in five months when all this was happening.

 

Fast forward three months ago, when feeling a lot better and being healthy, she tracked me down to my new place (I moved into a new, lovely house). How did she know? Well, one of my mutual friends ratted me out. It's not like I was running away or anything; I just didn't want her in my life anymore... I think. Anyway, that friend has apologized and explained to me how desperate ex wanted to talk to me after so much time had past (gets me every time).

 

Well, she wanted to meet for coffee, I told her she can go to hell. Usually comments like those would illicit "You're mean" responses. Not this time. She was very calm an collected and took everything I dished out. I admit that I was an ass, called her every name in the book except the W or C... I don't have it in me to go there but at least bitch works.

 

It was during her visit when I realised one, big thing. Her approach and mannerism was far different than I remembered. She even looked different. I threatened to call the police if she did not leave. She sadly left but pleaded for me to call her when I have the time. She gave me her number (just in case I forgot it) which I threw in the trash in front of her.

 

Man, what the hell is wrong with me? I'm I really that petty?

 

 

About a week after her visit, I kind of felt bad about how our talk went. I was curious to know why she wanted to see me after I completely stopped communicating with her and told her to move on all those months ago. I mean, obviously I did, right?

 

Yeah...

 

Well, called her up (did not forget her number) and decided to take her offer. I know a lot of you a shaking your heads in disappointment but well I let feelings dictate this instead of my head. Guess I haven't gotten over her if it was that easy.

 

Anyway, we met for coffee. I played it cool this time, decided to be cordial and get it over with. Maybe this will be some closure?

 

Well, turns out it was a hell of a lot more than that. If you read my thread, you'll notice my last face-to-face conversation with her ended ugly. That was the last time we physically saw each other. This picks up from that.

 

She started off by apologising AGAIN for ruining our M. I had to remind her AGAIN that it was over and done with and the was no point in dwelling.

 

Apparently, she took the fact that I cut her out hard and began to go to more IC sessions. She has childhood trauma with sexual abuse that she has been tackling ever since we split. Above the stuff she gave me the last time (NC letter, timeline etc) she been obsessively researching infidelity and helping someone to heal. She told me she will never understand the pain she put me through, but she would like to help me cope with it. She does not want another chance to be married (Yeah right) and wants to go as slow as I'm willing to allow.

 

I quickly reminded her that she isn't entitled to a relationship with me. She was all business when she asked me "What can I do to make that happened? Tell me and I'll do it."

 

I jokingly told her to kiss my feet. She did so without hesitation and I sputtered in complete shock. In public! I got a lot of questioning-to-nasty looks at the shop. I immediately stopped and embarrassingly dragged her to restaurant a block away.

 

I asked her if she lost her mind and she said no. I wanted her to demonstrate her commitment, so she did... Hmm, now I'm even more curious.

 

Got to talking about relationships. She STILL hasn't seen or slept with anyone(embarrassingly confirmed). She's still pinning for me. I have slept with the entire town and I tell her (no infidelities on my part, thank you). She asks if I'm in a relationship. I tell her no. She asked if I'm still sleeping around. I tell her I've gotten bored of it all. Somehow we end up talking about me and how I'm doing emotionally. I've already done IC, so I didn't think it mattered but spilling it all to her was actually helpful. I still have resentment no matter how much I tell myself I don't. I still feel corned and lied to. I had no idea she would be this prepared to handle my snarkiness.

 

We've been seeing each other (I'm stupid, I know). We're sleeping together (she doesn't live with me) and having really deep conversations. She admits that the last time we saw each other she hadn't properly dealt with her own issues to help me, but now she has and will continue to do so in order to be trustworthy to either me or the next partner if I cannot find in myself to give her another chance.

 

She has been the model "girlfriend" so far. She is very open and transparent now, very attentive. She actually does not want to rugsweep her A and regularly initiates difficult conversations (which initially I found strange but get now) If only she was like this in our M, I would have considered myself a very lucky man. Now, not so much. She's doing A LOT of heavy lifting not knowing if it's going to pay off. I'm just sitting on the couch and watching from the sidelines. Is that normal? I have no idea. Her efforts are pretty noteworthy though. I'm not sure if she's wasting her time trying to salvage anything from this. I don't know what I want.

 

Why did I write this? To update you, of course!

 

As a bonus, I told OBS and she dumped OM a long time ago.

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I don't blame you. If she is truly doing the work, and you still have feelings for her, it's not a horrible thing to try.

 

 

 

Just keep an eye on her. Some people can do the work short term, but fail to realize it's kind of a rest of their life thing and think they can go back to "normal" after a little while.

 

 

 

Your taking a risk. Do it smart. Pay attention. It could be worth it, or not. It's up to you and your own judgment.

 

 

 

Has she told you EVERYTHING about the affair? All the details? as in more than you knew? Has she blame shifted in the slightest or downplayed her affair in any way? It sounds like she isn't, but it can be tricky to spot sometimes.

 

 

Do you have access to her phone, pc, whatever? GPS?

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I have access to everything she owns. She hasn't blameshifted me as far as I can think. She's taking full responsibility of the A. She has been very adamant about that. She patiently answers all my questions and has written a detailed timeline(s) of events. She actually helps with triggers I still face...which is nice I guess?

 

A year ago she thought she was entitled to forgiveness. Now she says she understands if she never gets it but is willing to 'fight till the end to earn it'.

 

It is too early to tell, you're right, which is why I'm not investing too much time and effort into this relationship. Way too risky right now.

 

If she hid anything and I find it (I've been hyper-vigilant), she's gone.

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Far, have you asked yourself why she’s doing this? Not what or how, but why?

 

I could make a case that reinserting herself into your life after you’ve moved on is a another manifestation of the selfish behavior that enabled her affair...

 

Mr. lucky

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I guess you have answered a question I asked you when you were deep in it with her, "is your life better with her in it?" You divorced her, your both adults and you paid dearly to get out of infidelity. If your satisfied that she has been professionally helped enough to considered her a safe partner, there is nothing stopping you from pursuing a relationship with her. Be wise about it though, have a brutal prenuptial in place, one that gives you the majority of assets if you divorce/end your relationship because of a new infidelity. She shouldn't have an issue with that being a requirement of having a relationship with her because of your history together(if she doesn't don't take the relationship any further). Glad you are OK.

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You are so smug.

 

 

Two people make a relationship and marriage. If you will have her kissing your feet and holding a sword, this will not work.

 

 

Two people respecting and loving each other make a strong relationship.

 

 

Good luck.

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This has nothing to do with smugness. He was joking when he told her to kiss his feet, and was surprised that she took it literally.

 

OP, it sounds like you might have the foundation for reconciliation. It sounds like she grew up a little.

 

That being said, NEVER marry her again. She gave up that privilege and it's one she cannot earn back. Keep all assets separate. If you continue a longer-term relationship with her, make sure your assets are protected legally, even if she has to sign an agreement.

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This has nothing to do with smugness. He was joking when he told her to kiss his feet, and was surprised that she took it literally.

 

OP, it sounds like you might have the foundation for reconciliation. It sounds like she grew up a little.

 

That being said, NEVER marry her again. She gave up that privilege and it's one she cannot earn back. Keep all assets separate. If you continue a longer-term relationship with her, make sure your assets are protected legally, even if she has to sign an agreement.

 

 

What is the point then, honestly? He's free, he should stay so if this is the relationship he will have with her.

 

Let it go.

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You are so smug.

 

 

Two people make a relationship and marriage. If you will have her kissing your feet and holding a sword, this will not work.

 

 

Two people respecting and loving each other make a strong relationship.

 

 

Good luck.

 

He wasn't actually serious when he told her to do this, you do realize that?

 

@OP. I've read both posts. It seems you still do love her to an extent. The jaded part of me is waiting for you to return with bad news, the optimist in me hopes her change is genuine. Best of luck. In the end whether this is wrong or right for you is only up to you to decide. This is your life.

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He wasn't actually serious when he told her to do this, you do realize that?

 

 

Oui, you are the second to ask, lol. Does it matter?

 

 

OP, is beyond happy to rub his ex wife's face in her past infidelity. Over- joyed, it seems.

 

 

Yet lacking in any effort to reestablish a loving relationship. As I said, smug.

 

 

 

Why bother? Look at the bigger picture instead of being hurt. They are divorced. With his attitude, I would tell her to move on. Double period.

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OP, is beyond happy to rub his ex wife's face in her past infidelity. Over- joyed, it seems.

 

 

Yet lacking in any effort to reestablish a loving relationship. As I said, smug.

 

 

 

Why bother? Look at the bigger picture instead of being hurt. They are divorced. With his attitude, I would tell her to move on. Double period.

 

You're acting like his XWW is the victim here. She's not and she never will be. OP didn't uproot his XWW's life by cheating on her.

 

He has told her plenty of times to get lost, yet she persists. So now he's seeing what's what.

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I have access to everything she owns. She hasn't blameshifted me as far as I can think. She's taking full responsibility of the A. She has been very adamant about that. She patiently answers all my questions and has written a detailed timeline(s) of events. She actually helps with triggers I still face...which is nice I guess?

 

A year ago she thought she was entitled to forgiveness. Now she says she understands if she never gets it but is willing to 'fight till the end to earn it'.

 

It is too early to tell, you're right, which is why I'm not investing too much time and effort into this relationship. Way too risky right now.

 

If she hid anything and I find it (I've been hyper-vigilant), she's gone.

Good that you're clear-eyed about the impossibility of clearing the slate. It's all new from here on out. Not so good, that it's been barely less than a year since your previous encounter at some party during your update thread Nov-Dec. At that time, she was definitely not going through deep self-examination to face her own self-deception and humbly allow your absolute right to get on with your life. From what you wrote then, she sounded to me and others like she was still on her high horse of denial:

  • I told her that it was best for us to see other people.
  • "This again? I already told you that you're the only one."...
  • She cannot believe I'm holding a grudge against her--said it was unfair.
  • ... she tried to play the "Saint with no-fault" game and told me she would give me another chance and let the past be the past. ...
  • But I told her she was firm about commitment. We agreed prior to getting married that if one of us stabbed the other in the back, then our union was over. She gaped like a fish and said nothing for a while. Then she said that she didn't think I would remember that. ...
  • ...she immediately denied that I was ever Plan B, to which I countered, "Well, f***, the fact that you thought you were never going to get caught AND think you can get me back is just insulting."

This post from wmacbride in that thread said it the best for me:

Op,

I'm not a believer in the maxim that once a cheater, always a cheater, but in my experience, someone who cheats, especially if it is over an extended period of time, can lie to your face, gaslight you and put your health ( both mental and physical) at risk is not someone who can change that much.

 

Given what you say about her here, I don't think she has changed at all. Her view could well be that the cause of her cheating is external, something can't control. You'll know she sees it that way if you hear words like " it just sort of happened" , " He hit on me and perused me" or ' I would't have done this if not for you".

 

All those indicate a cheater who had made no changes at all, beyond window dressing. The next time she feels she deserves to be happy" and joe blow walks by and catches her eye, you'll be right back to square one.

 

There are people who have affairs, learn from them and will never,ever cheat again. These are the men and women who have had the courage to really look at their behavior, take ownership of it and examine the causes so they can make deep seated changes. It doesn't sound like your ex has done any of that. To me, it sounds like she is continuing to blame others for her actions.

...

 

After my husband cheated, he was gone for a long time ( deployed) and we were in limbo. We'd had a quasi-reconciliation, but it was still very much up in the air. When he got home months later, he spend a huge amount of time working on himself, and also subjecting himself to the embarrassment and reprimands of going to his warrant officer to talk to him about what had gone on ( he and the ow worked together). He'd been mentally ill before he left ( combat PTSD) and his therapy sort of rolled his cheating, ptsd, etc. altogether and he spent a few years working really hard on himself. I know facing his demons took a lot of courage, and I admire that he was able to do it.

 

I decided wmacbride's post on your Nov. 2017 thread does a better job of saying what I wanted to say than I could have. But note well her main points:

- Her description of WS entitlement is a perfect profile with detailed examples.

- She then describes the behavior of her own husband, whose behavior was consistent with that of someone deeply remorseful, e.g., how much time he took in self-refection before trying to reconnect.

 

For example, WHEN did she deal with THIS?

When we started dating she told me all about her self-esteem issues and how much she wanted to "find happiness" for herself and will one day. That... made uncomfortable for some reason, even more so when she clarified. I'll never forget what she told me. "I need to find someone who can make me happy. I deserve it and won't settle for any less." Why did that make me feel weird? Well, my mom always told me that people can only ADD to your happiness. You will never find it outside of yourself. It was a direct contradiction and it kind of made me pause a bit.
This was a fundamental understanding on your part. Do you know now why it made you "pause"? Do you still feel she would say this?

 

There's a big problem that kind of undermines any course of action:

You're already sleeping together.

 

Personally I think that was a mistake until you'd satisfied yourself (that other self - the one that had had enough) that you can allow yourself to be vulnerable again.

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Far, have you asked yourself why she’s doing this? Not what or how, but why?

 

I could make a case that reinserting herself into your life after you’ve moved on is a another manifestation of the selfish behavior that enabled her affair...

 

Mr. lucky

 

I don't know about that. She seems very genuine and has done a lot of work on herself. She has realised just how much her marriage meant to her and just how much she screwed up. All the signs are encouraging to me.

 

I know that it is very prudent to be cautious, but too much cynicism and over-analysis can be crippling sometimes.

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Hey Far, here's a repost of something I wrote to you back in December ...

 

"Far, you obliquely alluded to your ex-w living with an issue she had as a child growing up but declined to elaborate.

 

If that issue was Childhood Sexual Abuse within her family then that could explain a great deal about her inability to understand and/or empathize with either your position or her own behaviours.

 

If so then this is the demon which must first be slain before she becomes a fit potential partner for you or anyone else. This is a road she must travel on her own and it will be long and arduous. She is more likely to duck and run from it than to engage and overcome it, but it is she and she alone that must elect her path forward. Should you attempt to coax and guide her into this then her perception of you may be confused in her mind with the role of her dominating childhood abuser.

 

The only thing you can do is to make her aware, to wake her up."

 

 

So, apparently this was the case.

 

So, my advice still stands.

 

This childhood trauma explains a lot.

 

She may be redeemable, but it won't be easy.

 

Only you know if she's worth the effort.

 

My gut feel is that she is.

 

Good luck, and best wishes.

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op,whatever you do, please be honest with her. Don't let her think there is a possibility that you two may become an item again if that is not something you ever intend to let happen.

 

 

Yes, she cheated on you. Yes, she screwed up, and yes, it was likley very painful. This being said, if you do get back in a serious relationship with her, it's not going to work if the A is constantly hanging over her head.

 

 

In other words, if you don't think you can let go of the affair, then it's better to walk away and start new with someone who you don't already have this baggage with. Otherwise, you may end up hurting both her and yourself.

 

 

 

If you both agree to take the leap of faith, then I would suggest you get some couple's counseling. It might help to work through any lingering issues.

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Remember me? Of course you do. I pop in once and a while just for the heck of it. Remember my story? It's definitely somewhere here. I'm the sorry sod that actually made it out of infidelity. I D'd my WW and it was clean, clinical and with little hassle (who am I kidding???)

 

Well, last year I came on this site and told people my story. My ex wanted to get back together and had been relentlessly pursuing me ever since the D. I asked people if I should give it a shot. I was informed to 'Run Forest, run!' and never look back. Great advice, as it allowed me to cut her completely out of my life and 'play the field', so to speak. Got my mojo back. I actually had no idea how many woman were just available to 'have fun' and nothing else. It felt great for a time. And then I got bored of the whole friends with benefits gig.

 

Mind you, I hadn't talked to my ex in five months when all this was happening.

 

Fast forward three months ago, when feeling a lot better and being healthy, she tracked me down to my new place (I moved into a new, lovely house). How did she know? Well, one of my mutual friends ratted me out. It's not like I was running away or anything; I just didn't want her in my life anymore... I think. Anyway, that friend has apologized and explained to me how desperate ex wanted to talk to me after so much time had past (gets me every time).

.

.

.

.

 

Why did I write this? To update you, of course!

 

As a bonus, I told OBS and she dumped OM a long time ago.

 

I don't usually go here, but... what will it hurt to try.

 

Having said that, do not allow yourself to get too comfy in this situation. Understand, just don't.

 

And there should not be any time limit on you deciding what YOU want is the long term.

 

But she is being coached, probably from one of the infidelity sites.

 

If she can prove that she has really changed and does ALL the heavy lifting, I don't know, it might be worth a shot...

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If she has really changed and there is still love and a connection, then go for it. Just remember to protect yourself before, during and after. If she loves you enough to kiss your feet in a public place, then that is one h*ll of a display of love. I do wish you well.

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You are so smug.

 

 

Two people make a relationship and marriage. If you will have her kissing your feet and holding a sword, this will not work.

 

 

Two people respecting and loving each other make a strong relationship.

 

 

Good luck.

 

Hold it right there. I did not mean for her to do that. Hell, I told her to do it absolutely sure that she wouldn't. You think I like the fact that she did that? Nope, mortified and embarrassed, that was me. It happened really quickly. It wasn't as if I was condescendingly watching her do it. I use sarcasm and dark humor a lot, especially to people I don't like. But your point is noted. My post does come across as smug from a black and white perspective.

 

You actually have a point about the relationship. It might not last due sorely to my inhibition to invest all I can into it to make it stronger. Maybe experiencing infidelity, sleepless nights , losing weight, suicidal thoughts, IC, and a very expensive devorce might have made me a little distrustful of her intentions? Maybe I don't wanna put myself out there like the last time and make it easy for her to stab me in the back again?

 

And let's talk about respect. I respect her resolve and effort to change. She has done a lot of work on herself and I can actually see the results. That is the only reason I'm in this. I want to see if her remorse is genuine or just another one of her facades in order for me to be like, "Okay, I want this as much as you do". I will take my sweet time with that.

 

Oh and a part of me still does have feelings for her. Why would I be going through this crap again if there wasn't a glimpse of hope that something great might come out of it?

 

Anyway, I do appreciate your response.

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op,whatever you do, please be honest with her. Don't let her think there is a possibility that you two may become an item again if that is not something you ever intend to let happen.

 

 

Yes, she cheated on you. Yes, she screwed up, and yes, it was likley very painful. This being said, if you do get back in a serious relationship with her, it's not going to work if the A is constantly hanging over her head.

 

 

In other words, if you don't think you can let go of the affair, then it's better to walk away and start new with someone who you don't already have this baggage with. Otherwise, you may end up hurting both her and yourself.

 

 

 

If you both agree to take the leap of faith, then I would suggest you get some couple's counseling. It might help to work through any lingering issues.

 

We have had quite a few talks and no I actually don't hold the A over her head. I do still feel effected by it but ever since the D the pain is more like a dull ache instead of crippling pain I felt before. SHE is the one who actually initiates a lot of conversations of her A. She says she wants me to process it so that I can get it out of my system and heal more effectively. Couples Counseling is out of the question...for now at least. I will consider it in due time though.

 

Like mentioned before, I don't know what I want and I'm still taking things slow to see if "this" is worth it. I don't ever plan to lead her on but I'm not jumping into this with blinders either.

 

You are right. If we do get serious again, then I want her A to be the furthest thing from my mind. She's doing a really good job of trying to make that happen.

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Far, have you asked yourself why she’s doing this? Not what or how, but why?

 

I could make a case that reinserting herself into your life after you’ve moved on is a another manifestation of the selfish behavior that enabled her affair...

 

Mr. lucky

 

This is something that has crossed my mind many times. I'm being very cautious with her because you might just be right about that.

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I guess you have answered a question I asked you when you were deep in it with her, "is your life better with her in it?" You divorced her, your both adults and you paid dearly to get out of infidelity. If your satisfied that she has been professionally helped enough to considered her a safe partner, there is nothing stopping you from pursuing a relationship with her. Be wise about it though, have a brutal prenuptial in place, one that gives you the majority of assets if you divorce/end your relationship because of a new infidelity. She shouldn't have an issue with that being a requirement of having a relationship with her because of your history together(if she doesn't don't take the relationship any further). Glad you are OK.

 

Thanks for you words. We did discuss a prenup and she is all for it if we do get serious later on.

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I don't usually go here, but... what will it hurt to try.

 

Having said that, do not allow yourself to get too comfy in this situation. Understand, just don't.

 

And there should not be any time limit on you deciding what YOU want is the long term.

 

But she is being coached, probably from one of the infidelity sites.

 

If she can prove that she has really changed and does ALL the heavy lifting, I don't know, it might be worth a shot...

 

This is very good advice. Thanks.

 

She is on a healing from infidelity forum (not this one).

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Was the OM a coworker? If so do they stil have any contact.

 

For this to work he has to be nc forever

 

OM is gone for good. Yes, he was a coworker. It's very cliché.

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If you choose the R route it takes two. She nor you can do it alone.

 

You either go all in or not.

 

From many I've seen you have a better shot than most. There are no guarantees.

 

The good thing is you did this right upfront. I've not seen many able to pull it off like you did. So she should know there won't be another chance if she gets this one.

 

You know her better than us.

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