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Confused135

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Confused135

Hi, I’m new here but have been a lurker for awhile, it’s been so helpful to read through what others are going through, advice, etc.

 

I need some advice on what to do...husband and I have been married almost 20 years. In the past I have been betrayed by him - not physically, but emotionally. About 5 years ago I found out he was taking another woman out to fancy dinners, movies, etc., alone with her and lying by omission to me. We’ve go to counseling. We are working on it but the trust is not there.

 

The other day, I saw an un-named number come up as a text. The exchange was brief; just asking for food recommendations in a new

city and a little back and forth discussion. What was odd to me was there was no history, so he had deleted any prior conversation. It was clear he knew who this text came from even though it only showed up as a number with no name associated.

 

I didn’t say anything...he has been out of town the last couple days. I looked on his phone after he got back and there was no text strand at all with that number, so he had deleted the whole conversation.

 

He is pretty protective of his phone. It’s always face down and when he takes a shower, he puts it in a pocket in his clothes tucked away. I know I shouldn’t snoop and yet I feel that because of our past that I need to.

 

I don’t know what to do now. I don’t want him to know I snooped but I’m also fed up with his lying by omission and lack of respect for me, though I guess I don’t respect him either by snooping. It’s just sad all around. Any advice would be appreciated...

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Why are you so worried about him knowing you snooped? It's not like he didn't give you cause with past behaviour already! He already messed up once, he lied to you, broke the trust in your relationship, why are you the one pussyfooting around him?

 

To me it seems all he learned from the last time you caught him, whether you got the full truth out of him or more likely didn't, was to better hide his activities and be more careful.

 

Worse he seems to have turned this entire thing on its head. It was him who was engaged in unaceptable behaviour. Yet he got you to the point where despite finding things which might very likely hint at him being engaged in such behaviour again you are the one being afraid, worried he might get upset and think your behaviour unacceptable.

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salparadise

I agree with Marad3r. You have sufficient reason to be suspicious, and you continue to find more. You are downplaying and underestimating what you've found as well.

 

You say he wasn't cheating physically, but was taking this woman out to fancy dinners, etc., and lying by omission. They were DATING, and the odds that he never got his noodle wet are just about zero. This isn't lying by omission, this is outright cheating. Not only that, but what you've seen on the phone, plus the fact that he guards the phone all the time, means it's a pattern––habitual and ongoing. You are minimizing, which saves him from having to do any overt lying.

 

So, two questions... 1) what does it take for you to fully realize what's going on? Must you literally catch them in bed naked to shock you from your state of semi-denial? 2) even though you minimize, you know that you can't trust him. You know what it is. How long are you willing to play along with this charade?

 

Okay, I get it, somewhat. Twenty years is a long time and nobody wants to just throw away their marriage. First, you need to be in counseling. Second, you need to get real with yourself (acknowledge reality). Third, you need to decide if you're going to live in this miserable state indefinitely (or until he leaves you for one of his girlfriends), or if you have enough self-respect to pull the plug and seek a life of congruity.

 

I'm sorry you're in this awful place, and I know this is upsetting... but you did ask and I think you need a wakeup call. One of two possibilities is what you're dealing with... he's having affairs, or he's pursuing affairs but with limited success.

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Confused135

Thank you both for your candor. We are in counseling but I haven’t brought this up yet, though I should. I told my him I don’t want to live a lie. I asked him point blank last night if he has female friendships that I don’t know about and he vehemently denied it. I also asked if he wanted to live a single life then let’s not continue this charade, but he doesn’t want to separate.

 

I need to be calmer to bring this up. It’s a painful realization that he’s basically learned to cover his tracks better. I want to demand transparency with his phone...at the same time it’s exhausting to have to be vigilant and monitoring, I can’t stop him from being unfaithful. 20 years is a long time, we have children in our home, there’s so much skin in the game so to speak.

 

I’m so disappointed because we started counseling because of the past when he was basically dating another woman, it was a horrible time and it’s the beginning stages of that all over again. I can’t demand integrity, trustworthiness, respect, that he clearly doesn’t have for me/our marriage - that’s his choice and actions.... It’s sad.

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I’m so disappointed because we started counseling because of the past when he was basically dating another woman. I can’t demand integrity, trustworthiness, respect, that he clearly doesn’t have for me/our marriage - that’s his choice and actions...

 

You do have many things to consider, and whatever you decide it won't be easy.

 

But, quite simply, people who are married shouldn't be dating other people.

 

You can most certainly demand that he be faithful, trustworthy, and respectful... by informing him that there will be serious consequences if he continues to date other people. It's not wrong for you to expect that of your husband, the father of your children, your life partner. Give him a consequence, and then he has a decision to make.

 

Just don't forget that old saying "Fool me once, it's on you. Fool me twice, that's on me." Be careful about how many chances you give this guy...

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From his past actions, he learned two things from you: (1) You won't ditch him, so he doesn't have to worry about any serious consequence of him cheating on you, and (2) How to hide evidence better so that he does't have to deal with you nagging and whining at him.

 

Question for you:

What would you do, if you get full evidence of him cheating on you (be it physical or emotional)? Would you leave him or still try to work it out with him by forcing him to "rehabilitate" and forcing him to "love" you instead of having relationships with other women?

 

If you are willing to leave him, then what are you waiting for--this to continue so that your mind goes down he drain farther?

 

If you are not willing to leave him no matter what (whether your reason is "love" or "20 years together"), then point blank say to him you are ok with him having affairs, and that you would stand by him no matter what he does to you, and that way at least he doesn't feel the need to hide anything from you and drive you insane in the process with secrecy. Give him the full free ticket to have an open marriage and that way you can still be with him--but at least you will have the truth.

 

On the other hand, if you are not ok with him having relationship with others, then don't humiliate yourself any farther by "begging" to get the truth out of him. Is it not obvious that he is blatantly disrespecting you by hiding the truth in the past and now is doing it again?

 

Send him a brief single text message, telling him you are done with him until he is ready to disclose everything and then you'd be willing to have another word with him, otherwise you are leaving him. Period.

That will wake him up.

 

Consequence--

Show him what that tastes like.

Clearly he hasn't faced any and that's why he is continuing with sheer success what has already benefitted him at the cost of your pain.

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20 years is a long time, we have children in our home, there’s so much skin in the game so to speak.

No, no, just no, absolutely no. You're falling prey to the sunk cost fallacy here. You wont get your investment back, it's gone. You won't get your time back, it's gone. You wont get your love, attachment etc back, it's all gone.

 

What you are doing right now is throwing more of all of what you've already given at the problem in hopes of fixing it, so your losses wont be actual losses. You aren't fixing the problem this way, you are increasing your losses and making them worse.

 

So by the time you finally come around, it wont be 20 years, it'll be 30 or 40.

 

(1) You won't ditch him, so he doesn't have to worry about any serious consequence of him cheating on you

I would actually say it's even worse. He managed to get her into a position where she is trying to appease him. Which is the entirely wrong way around given who did what in the past. She weakened her own position beyond showing she is toothless, she gave him free reign for minor concessions such as the counseling.

(2) How to hide evidence better so that he does't have to deal with you nagging and whining at him.

Worse, whinning and nagging with no teeth behind it, will just seem annoying and petulant. It will help him justify his actions and gives him ammunition to use against her. "You're never givine me peace! You never trust me! You are always criticizing me! ..."

 

 

@OP. You found out about your husband and his actions. Instead of being consequent, putting pressure on him and holding his feet to the fire you acted in a way which gave him MORE power in your relationship. He is now very much involved in these things again, illicit messages, hiding things, lying While all that is left for you is to act petulant and stomp your feet angrily, which to him will likely look like nothing more than a storm in a teacup, a hissy fit, a child throwing a temper tantrum.

 

There is an important lessong in life, you don't have step on and over others to get ahead but you can never allow anyone else to do it to you either. Once you do you set a precence, you've shown people that you're a doormat to whom they can do such things. Which to them justifies such behaviour and often encourages it.

 

This right here is the point where you have to draw the line, where you need to stand up for yourself, where real consequences have to start coming into play and if those don't work you might aswell set the entire thing on fire.

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whichwayisup

Seems he still is up to no good behind your back so DO bring this up in counseling. Though counseling is pointless if he is still cheating on you. It's a waste of your time, energy and money too!

 

Please don't be so afraid of losing him.... Stand up for yourself and if he gets angry that you snooped that's his problem. HE is the one who is not regaining your trust or allowing you access to his phone. he's not an open book and putting in effort to fix things, let alone fix himself.

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Confused135

I need to hear this. Thanks everyone. Yes, I would leave him if I had full evidence of a PA/EA. It’s true, there hasn’t been any real consequence from the past (besides going to counseling which he refused to do until I caught him “dating” another woman), and I agree that he must see me as nagging; you all make such good points. I asked him point blank last night if he wants to be married still; and if he wants to live a single lifestyle than to stop this facade, then. He said he wants to be married, and I said not to make a fool of me. I mentioned how his phone is always hidden away and face down.

 

Interestingly, this morning when he took a shower he made it a point to put his phone on my charger, right next to my side of the bed. He never does that, usually it’s hidden away deep in a pocket somewhere.

 

Somewhere along the way in the past 20 years, we stopped being on the same team. We’re broken and we are trying to fix it but maybe it can’t be fixed. I want integrity and respect and loyalty but I can’t force that, either, and if he can’t give that, then yes I must really think long and hard about the future and what pain lies ahead, with either choice - stay and try and just be done with it all.

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viatori patuit

Ok, guy here who did cheat once and realizes how bad thatcan be.

 

 

A few questions.

 

1. Is he attentive?

2. Is your sex life still good?

3. Are you paying attention to him? If so, does he respond?

 

You could be right and he he could be a serial cheater. Not all cheaters do it forever. Some of us learn. You are in counseling, maybe you should check there? If he is cheating, you will find out. If not then you may do damage yourself. I know if I was really trying and all I got was constant suspicion I would take offense at some point.

 

Either way your current mindset is untenable. Have you gone to individual counseling? Not saying you are wrong to verify at all. I am always cautious with jealousy. It only hurts me, not them.

 

Good luck no matter what. I hope you find peace. We all deserve it.

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Lotsgoingon

By the way, no you don't need to be composed ... You have a right and even a duty to be emotional ... and upset ... I'm a man ... and I'll just say just don't let a man try to chump you for being emotional. There are times to be emotional.

 

This is a crisis, as you describe it ... The trust has disappeared and you notice he has covered his tracks TOO WELL ...

 

So I'm gonna ask the hard question: did you suspect this before you saw the text? ... I'm asking because I am imagining that you did suspect he was cheating ... but somehow blocked it out ...

 

My guess is that this is just confirmation of what you have felt for a while. So you suspected him about the woman 5 years ago? ... You think this is the same woman? ... Different woman?

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I am wondering why... you think that he did not sleep with her before.

 

The standard advice is that adults have sex. So I am not sure why you believe this.

 

It is not like you are rug sweeping because you are in counseling, but the general rule is that cheaters lie.

 

This new thing is more of the same...

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Confused135

Very good questions and points from you all.

 

To answer some questions...

1. Is he attentive?

-No, not really. Sometimes. He travels a ton for work during the week, during weekends he is tired. On that same note though, since I am taking care of the household and kids during the week on my own, I am exhausted too, and I wouldn't say I am attentive to him, either.

 

2. Is your sex life still good?

-It's ok.

 

3. Are you paying attention to him? If so, does he respond?

-I think this is a good question that I'm coming to terms with; no, if I'm being honest, I do not pay enough attention to him. We are both at fault on this, and the counselor we are seeing is trying to help us find ways to find that spark between us again, but with the mis-trust and hard feelings, it's difficult to move forward.

 

It's no way to live though, in this state of mind as Viatori put it so well.

 

4. Did you suspect this before you saw the text?

-Yes, I suspected something fishy, because of the way he usually guards his phone and *always* has it face down. I just think that's odd. I really don't know the extent of what is going on because I only saw a few texts between them and everything else is deleted.

 

5. So you suspected him about the woman 5 years ago?

Yes... though I didn't know about any woman at the time, I just knew something was off. He was completely disengaged in our marriage and in taking care of the kids; he was going out a lot with time with friends, etc. In between that time there was lying and deceit and betrayal as he never mentioned the woman he was hanging out with alone.

 

6. I am wondering why... you think that he did not sleep with her before.

-I really don't think he did sleep with her because I don't believe that it was reciprocal (I don't think she had feelings for him, but enjoyed his company as a friend). My husband worked with this woman and she was younger, and saw him as her "mentor." She emailed me saying that she never knew their activities were being kept a secret from me. Obviously, my husband felt something for her as he kept it from me and was a huge betrayal. They would hang out, go out for dinners, coffee, movies, etc., alone and all unbeknownst to me. I don't fault the woman as I see what happened as a complete betrayal from my husband and not to mention an abuse of his position of power. When I found out he seemed genuinely sorry and cut off all contact with her and that's when he finally agreed to counseling, too (in the past, he never wanted to go, until we hit that breaking point).

 

7. Is this the same or different woman from before?

-I think it's a different woman because of the number, it was from a different geographical location.

 

In any case, people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing, and in this case whatever is happening, the fact that he has now learned to cover his tracks better, it's just confirmation of this decrepit state that we are in.

 

I don't want to live a life of lies, mistrust, betrayal, and also jealousy and controlling behavior on my part because of the fear of him betraying me again. It's just exhausting and I am at my tipping point.

 

We have more counseling, and hoping to flush more of this out, though I have yet to ask about who that number is.

 

I do appreciate your insight, there's no one else I can speak to this about so I am thankful for the LS community here.

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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. You've been hoodwinked, gaslighted and sideswiped by someone who knows what he's doing.

 

Been there. Done that. You have no idea how naive you sound. Everyone is being very gentle with you. Don't worry; I did no better than you. But NOW I know, and I have no illusions now that he was lying when he said they didn't have sex. Like everyone else has told you: Adults don't hold back; adults have sex. He didn't wine and dine her for her company alone and wouldn't waste his money by stopping there. I guarantee you there was a payoff.

 

The other thing is that you're being further manipulated by his presumption of right to privacy. He lost that when he cheated the first time. He NEVER gets that back. If you're uncomfortable, you get to check. That's just how it works. You never get back to square one. Even if he proves himself trustworthy, that isn't accompanied by carte blanche trust and right to privacy. The fact that he thinks that means he didn't accept full accountability. HE is still deluded about what he's doing, who he is and who you are.

 

He's a schmuck.

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I need to hear this. Thanks everyone. Yes, I would leave him if I had full evidence of a PA/EA. It’s true, there hasn’t been any real consequence from the past (besides going to counseling which he refused to do until I caught him “dating” another woman), and I agree that he must see me as nagging; you all make such good points. I asked him point blank last night if he wants to be married still; and if he wants to live a single lifestyle than to stop this facade, then. He said he wants to be married, and I said not to make a fool of me. I mentioned how his phone is always hidden away and face down.

 

Interestingly, this morning when he took a shower he made it a point to put his phone on my charger, right next to my side of the bed. He never does that, usually it’s hidden away deep in a pocket somewhere..

 

Im very sorry for what you're going through.

How do you define 'dating' the other woman? Do you not regard it as an emotional affair?

On the other forum you can find affairs that have gone on for years without including dinners or other outings.

It sounds pretty romantic.

Charging his phone like that is very suspicious. Trying to look innocent is a very likely sign of being guilty.

To me you sound in denial. You also seem to be walking on eggshells around him.

The entire set up sounds sad and lonely.

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You know you shouldn't snoop?

 

 

That's ridiculous given his history of <at least> emotional affairs <probably a lot more than you will ever know> and ongoing secrecy and deception.

 

 

Hides his phone when he takes a shower. Seriously- he's hiding stuff from you.

 

 

 

Value yourself more.

 

 

Recognize him for what he truly is.

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Since he isn't making effort to change by earning your trust and you have clear evidence you can't trust him...

 

File immediately for divorce. Serve him when he gets home.

 

Blast that cheater right out of the water!

 

Request EVERYTHING you possibly can in the divorce papers!

 

Move money NOW!

 

Take charge of your future - stop leaving it hanging to a man who continues to betray you.

 

 

Counseling is like throwing money away... unless you now go alone to learn how to be stronger as you face the reality of being divorced.

 

Stay strong and keep posting.

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I need to hear this. Thanks everyone. Yes, I would leave him if I had full evidence of a PA/EA. It’s true, there hasn’t been any real consequence from the past (besides going to counseling which he refused to do until I caught him “dating” another woman), and I agree that he must see me as nagging; you all make such good points. I asked him point blank last night if he wants to be married still; and if he wants to live a single lifestyle than to stop this facade, then. He said he wants to be married, and I said not to make a fool of me. I mentioned how his phone is always hidden away and face down.

 

Interestingly, this morning when he took a shower he made it a point to put his phone on my charger, right next to my side of the bed. He never does that, usually it’s hidden away deep in a pocket somewhere.

 

Somewhere along the way in the past 20 years, we stopped being on the same team. We’re broken and we are trying to fix it but maybe it can’t be fixed. I want integrity and respect and loyalty but I can’t force that, either, and if he can’t give that, then yes I must really think long and hard about the future and what pain lies ahead, with either choice - stay and try and just be done with it all.

 

I'd say YOU are trying to fix it - but there's no way to fix anything when his attention and energy is elsewhere.

 

He doesn't respect or honor you. Call it a day - he is just blatantly lying to you.

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File immediately for divorce. Serve him when he gets home.

 

Blast that cheater right out of the water!

 

Request EVERYTHING you possibly can in the divorce papers!

 

Move money NOW!

 

Take charge of your future

 

 

This woman tiptoes around her husband and lives in mortal fear of him. You think for a second she'll even remotely consider doing any of those things?

 

 

Might as well try to teach an elephant to water ski.

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Confused135

I do agree, yes, he lost his right to privacy, and that's something we need to talk about. I do want to discuss with him that we should have open access to each other's phones.

 

To answer a previous question, yes, I do think what happened 5 years ago was an emotional affair, a huge betrayal. I was seriously ready to call it quits at that point but we started counseling.

 

I know there's something immensely wrong in our current state and I see this is a clear crisis point in my marriage, that we are on the path toward divorce right now - and I have a lot of thinking to do; I don't want to tolerate unfaithfulness and I will discuss this with my husband, though I dread having that discussion, I need to have it.

 

Yes, the entire set up IS terribly sad and lonely, and quite frankly it's pretty depressing to be in this current state. Inertia is easy to fall back on, not changing or doing anything different.

 

I don't want to snoop; I just want open access and I will talk to him about this. I hate that he's learned to cover his tracks better and yes it takes two to work on this and there clearly isn't respect or honor, and it sucks. I don't tiptoe around my husband living in mortal fear though of him. It's extremely complicated when there's young kids involved; leaving him would mean also leaving my children 50% of the time and that thought breaks my heart. However I do know that I am worth more than being made a fool of.

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From what you stated you seem to be wanting access to his phone... you do know,dont you, that he will just hide things further? He will get a burner phone.

 

What's your healthy boundary look like? What's the breaking point that you leave him?

 

 

Because it looks like you allow him to walk all over you yet you don't change things.

 

Since this counselor isn't helping to get at any truth (not yours and not his) are you willing to get a new counselor? One YOU work with would help... help YOU get strong enough so you're not afraid to leave when any man treats you like trash they took out.

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Thank you both for your candor. We are in counseling but I haven’t brought this up yet, though I should. I told my him I don’t want to live a lie. I asked him point blank last night if he has female friendships that I don’t know about and he vehemently denied it. I also asked if he wanted to live a single life then let’s not continue this charade, but he doesn’t want to separate.

 

I need to be calmer to bring this up. It’s a painful realization that he’s basically learned to cover his tracks better. I want to demand transparency with his phone...at the same time it’s exhausting to have to be vigilant and monitoring, I can’t stop him from being unfaithful. 20 years is a long time, we have children in our home, there’s so much skin in the game so to speak.

 

I’m so disappointed because we started counseling because of the past when he was basically dating another woman, it was a horrible time and it’s the beginning stages of that all over again. I can’t demand integrity, trustworthiness, respect, that he clearly doesn’t have for me/our marriage - that’s his choice and actions.... It’s sad.

 

Right now you at least have a little insight when you have access to his phone. Demanding transparency will likely move his activities to channels that will give you no insight - he'll just find a way to hide it completely. I think you should just file for divorce and only CONSIDER taking him back if he's begging and promising to change completely.

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Hello, I am not sure if you two have kids or not but i thought I still might be helpful. I am a teenager who basically sat and watched my parents 22 year marriage fall apart. Both my parents became secretive of their phones not just from each other but me as well. It is best to just accept that he is most likely being deceptive. Leaving him would be a mourning process regardless but I think you would be better off without the stress and worries of infidelity. Best of luck.

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viatori patuit

Based on everything I see here there are really two options:

 

1. He is a serial cheater and completely untrustworthy.

2. You are unbalanced from this and will never trust him.

 

 

Which is it? FWIW the only way this ends is divorce imho. To be fair I suggest you file and get it over with.

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I’m so, so sorry you are going through this. He is lying to you and trying to hide his relationship with this woman. You don’t deserve this. He’s not being honest. He is basically forcing this awful lifestyle on you of being suspicious and having to check up on him and being a detective in your personal life. It’s awful and I am sorry you are going through it. He is lying to you. Otherwise he wouldn’t be deleting the whole text message history.

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