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BS-has being betrayed made you lose empathy for other BS's?


HadMeOverABarrel

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HadMeOverABarrel

My question is basically: does his BW lack empathy for another BH because she's been jaded from being cheated on? Or does she lack empathy because she is unaware she's been cheated on (multiple times over the course of her marriage)?

 

A BH (call him Jack) started a dialogue with the above BW (call her Jill). Jack told Jill about how he gave everything his WW and more, but his WW ended up cheating on him. Jack and Jill have been discussing how life events shape spiritual paths. Jack asked Jill her thoughts on how Jack's WW's transgressions impacted Jack's spiritual path. (Jack has been totally kind to Jill during their whole dialogue.) Here was Jill's response:

 

"You will find no pity party for you here, Jack. If you ever want to live a happy peaceful life this 'victim' mentality of how the world has wronged poor Jack has got to go. Who do you think you are Jack?"

 

Her response is so ironic and callous for someone who has been betrayed multiple times by her own spouse. I'm interested in what others see in Jill's comments and the answers to my questions above.

 

Thank you!

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Sometimes it takes one to know one.

 

One thing that is universal in all people but I think is especially pronounced more in women towards men is an innate disdain for weakness and allowing one'self to be pushed around and mistreated.

 

It's not a lack of compassion per se, but rather a lack of respect.

 

Perhaps in the scenario you describe, Jill could see that Jack was being weak and allowing himself to exploited and manipulated. It's not that Jill was necessarily callous or uncaring, but rather she could see (from firsthand experience mind you) that Jack had many other options to improve his situation, but he was instead choosing to buttbleed and whine and seek sympathy and coddling rather than taking definitive action to correct or at least improve his situation.

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HadMeOverABarrel,

 

There are many different types of people on Loveshack, so yes I am sure some BS have no empathy for others. Or, we lose empathy, as we see someone who will not, can not, take positive actions to try and improve their situation. "Sorry for your troubles, but what are you going to do with it, past complaining?" This is a big difference. I can have lots of empathy for what was done to them, but little patience with them for not moving forward. After several pages of how bad it is, one must ask them, why do you not change, or try to change, or accept, the situation?

 

Infidelity, is best dealt with, both for a WS and BS, by confessing, stoping the affair and then working towards reconciliation, or divorcing. There are rifts on this, depending on the type of betrayal. Trying to live in the middle does not work, and causes more heartache and pain.

 

My two cents.......

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HadMeOverABarrel
Sometimes it takes one to know one.

 

One thing that is universal in all people but I think is especially pronounced more in women towards men is an innate disdain for weakness and allowing one'self to be pushed around and mistreated.

 

It's not a lack of compassion per se, but rather a lack of respect.

 

Perhaps in the scenario you describe, Jill could see that Jack was being weak and allowing himself to exploited and manipulated. It's not that Jill was necessarily callous or uncaring, but rather she could see (from firsthand experience mind you) that Jack had many other options to improve his situation, but he was instead choosing to buttbleed and whine and seek sympathy and coddling rather than taking definitive action to correct or at least improve his situation.

 

Terrific perspective, Oldshirt. Did I interpret your comment in parenthesis correctly that you believe she knows she's been betrayed but has chosen to not think of herself as a victim?

 

If that's the case, perhaps that's a defense mechanism? I learned in IC this is one of my favorite defense mechanisms...I'm not a victim so you can't hurt me. I'm genuinely trying to understand things from Jill's POV.

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HadMeOverABarrel
HadMeOverABarrel,

 

There are many different types of people on Loveshack, so yes I am sure some BS have no empathy for others. Or, we lose empathy, as we see someone who will not, can not, take positive actions to try and improve their situation. "Sorry for your troubles, but what are you going to do with it, past complaining?" This is a big difference. I can have lots of empathy for what was done to them, but little patience with them for not moving forward. After several pages of how bad it is, one must ask them, why do you not change, or try to change, or accept, the situation?

 

Infidelity, is best dealt with, both for a WS and BS, by confessing, stoping the affair and then working towards reconciliation, or divorcing. There are rifts on this, depending on the type of betrayal. Trying to live in the middle does not work, and causes more heartache and pain.

 

My two cents.......

 

Thank you for your response. Good point that few people like when someone gets hung up on being a victim. Imo, Jack didn't present himself as a victim though. He's a worldly, successful, handsome entrepreneur. Her response surprised me being that I would have responded with more empathy. Here's what Jack told Jill that illicited her response in my original post:

 

Jack: "I wonder how what you wrote relates to this: my last long-term relationship broke my heart. I gave her everything she asked for and more. I was loyal, faithful, supportive, and generous. Then I discovered she was cheating. What do you think about this? You said people are prompts, right? So how was her cheating a prompt for me? It seems thar she was only very selfish. Have you been cheated on before? What did it prompt in you?"

 

Jill: "You will find no pity party for you here Jack. If you ever want to live a happy peaceful life this 'victim' mentality of how the world has wronged poor Jack has got to go. Who do you think you are Jack? "

 

Also, I completely agree with your last paragraph.

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Terrific perspective, Oldshirt. Did I interpret your comment in parenthesis correctly that you believe she knows she's been betrayed but has chosen to not think of herself as a victim?

 

.

 

No that is not what I meant at all. My apologies if I was not clear.

 

What I meant is that if she herself has allowed herself to wallow in inaction and has merely entertained herself by whining and buttbleeding about it for sympathy, but has taken no affirmative action to help herself, then she may be able to see through his whining and lack of action as well.

 

Just because she did it, doesn't mean that she won't lose respect and esteem for him doing it as well.

 

And the fact that she had 'been there/done that' might mean that she knows better than the average person at how little action he was really taking.

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HadMeOverABarrel

Or maybe Jill knows but doesn't give a crap (as in she gets all the perks of stay at home wife so turns a blind eye?...she and her WH are still sexually active. (Personally I can hardly get my head around why anyone would do that but not everyone thinks like me; hence the beauty of hearing from folks on LS.)

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HadMeOverABarrel
No that is not what I meant at all. My apologies if I was not clear.

 

What I meant is that if she herself has allowed herself to wallow in inaction and has merely entertained herself by whining and buttbleeding about it for sympathy, but has taken no affirmative action to help herself, then she may be able to see through his whining and lack of action as well.

 

Just because she did it, doesn't mean that she won't lose respect and esteem for him doing it as well.

 

And the fact that she had 'been there/done that' might mean that she knows better than the average person at how little action he was really taking.

 

Mmmmm...I see. Sort of projection. Please pardon my psychoanalytic terms...lol! I've been intensively in IC for the last couple months healing from my own A.

 

Oldshirt, I think you're on to something. This fits with some of her other comments to Jack about Jack having a big ego (even though Jack's been pretty humble with her). People communicate so much with what they DON'T say.

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I don't think it's lack of empathy. It may be an excess of empathy. I know how it hurts, I know the pain, the confusion, the fruitless questioning, the frustrated anger. I also know how wasteful of one's emotional energy and time it is. I would want to tell another BS to accelerate through this slough of despond, escape the toxicity as soon as possible. How? Forget what the WS needs, what the marriage needs, learn what YOU need, fall in love with you again, with life again. If your WS wants to follow, great! But don't get stuck pandering to the needs of someone who just stabbed you to the heart and begging for their love. Make yourself happy and enjoy whatever results.

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To sum up my wandering and seemingly irrelevant post, I guess I have empathy but less patience, and self-pity makes me cross.

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HadMeOverABarrel
HadMeOverABarrel,

 

There are many different types of people on Loveshack, so yes I am sure some BS have no empathy for others. Or, we lose empathy, as we see someone who will not, can not, take positive actions to try and improve their situation. "Sorry for your troubles, but what are you going to do with it, past complaining?" This is a big difference. I can have lots of empathy for what was done to them, but little patience with them for not moving forward. After several pages of how bad it is, one must ask them, why do you not change, or try to change, or accept, the situation?

 

Infidelity, is best dealt with, both for a WS and BS, by confessing, stoping the affair and then working towards reconciliation, or divorcing. There are rifts on this, depending on the type of betrayal. Trying to live in the middle does not work, and causes more heartache and pain.

 

My two cents.......

 

After reading Old Shirt's comments, then re-reading yours, I believe you are saying pretty much the same thing as him. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In that vein, I can see how nothing Jack said preceding the comment about cheating affects her perspective that Jack is a loathed victim.

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HadMeOverABarrel
To sum up my wandering and seemingly irrelevant post, I guess I have empathy but less patience, and self-pity makes me cross.

 

Not wandering or irrelevant. ;) Thank you for posting. Do you see self-pity in Jack's comment (please see it quotation marks in my post above)?

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Her response is so ironic and callous...

 

i don't think it's ironic or callous... at all.

 

ALL BSs do not live through their spouse's affair the same way - some couldn't care less, some see it as a tragedy, some are so QUICKLY and EASILY over it that they're annoyed when other BS aren't so quick to catch up...

 

Jill chose to cope with the affair differently, that's all. it's not about empathy - it's simply about one's mentality & character; if Jill is the type of person who rarely cries foul and is quick to shake it off and get back on her feet... she'll probably be annoyed by those who aren't like her = it's normal.

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Thank you for your response. Good point that few people like when someone gets hung up on being a victim. Imo, Jack didn't present himself as a victim though. He's a worldly, successful, handsome entrepreneur. Her response surprised me being that I would have responded with more empathy. Here's what Jack told Jill that illicited her response in my original post:

 

Jack: "I wonder how what you wrote relates to this: my last long-term relationship broke my heart. I gave her everything she asked for and more. I was loyal, faithful, supportive, and generous. Then I discovered she was cheating. What do you think about this? You said people are prompts, right? So how was her cheating a prompt for me? It seems thar she was only very selfish. Have you been cheated on before? What did it prompt in you?"

 

Jill: "You will find no pity party for you here Jack. If you ever want to live a happy peaceful life this 'victim' mentality of how the world has wronged poor Jack has got to go. Who do you think you are Jack? "

 

Also, I completely agree with your last paragraph.

 

Alpha in the Board Room does not always mean a BH is not Beta in his house or bed room.

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ShatteredLady

Chalk & cheese. You get all different kinds of people in life.

 

Jill strikes me as someone who has read plenty of self help & finds strength in quoting, not following, the advise.

 

Empathy is empathy. We can all use a dictionary. I've met many people in my life who have tremendous compassion for themselves & confuse that with empathy. It's not the same thing at all.

 

I'd like to have that deeper conversation with Jack. I don't really have any kind of relationship with the Jill's of this world. Of course I'm judging on a couple of lines of dialogue. Not knowing what surrounded it. If Jack had been banging on for 6 hours before they got to that point my view would be very different.

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HadMeOverABarrel
Chalk & cheese. You get all different kinds of people in life.

 

Jill strikes me as someone who has read plenty of self help & finds strength in quoting, not following, the advise.

 

Empathy is empathy. We can all use a dictionary. I've met many people in my life who have tremendous compassion for themselves & confuse that with empathy. It's not the same thing at all.

 

I'd like to have that deeper conversation with Jack. I don't really have any kind of relationship with the Jill's of this world. Of course I'm judging on a couple of lines of dialogue. Not knowing what surrounded it. If Jack had been banging on for 6 hours before they got to that point my view would be very different.

 

The couple lines of dialogue included in my earlier post between Jack and Jill regarding the topic of infidelity are the sum total between them on that topic. The conversation between them has been steady and regular since it began about a month ago with Jill sending ten other emails to Jack mostly of Jill playing self-appointed spiritual guru to Jack. For the couple of friends who have read the complete dialogue between them, the friends have called Jill a b#tch mainly because she projects and ascribes her egocentric qualities onto Jack.

 

Jack knows Jill was cheated on but doesn't know for certain if Jill knows. Jack was trying to ascertain that, plus whether she would want to know, by mentioning his own tale of being on the receiving end of betrayal and observing her reaction to that. So Jack has asked friends how they would've interpreted her response.

 

I like what you said about people confusing compassion for themselves with empathy for others. Interesting observation I hadn't before considered!

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Some people deal with loss being hurt - differently.

 

A related example - It might surprise you to know that cancer survivors may process their fight/losses/hurts/body changes much differently. They may not always share the same responses, empathy, or kindness towards other survivors. I am both a BH and cancer survivor and can tell you I have received both tremendous empathy and compassion - and also shrugs and "$h!T happens - move on" comments from different fellow survivors. Its not all a hug fest.

 

 

I am who I am, and my response to my various life losses are my own.

 

The only thing I might say is that as a twice BS - I have become a bit cynical of relationships, love, fidelity and sex - maybe a lack of surprise (empathy?) - but I can still get stirred up sometimes when I read about a BS being hurt by a WS

Edited by dichotomy
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Not wandering or irrelevant. ;) Thank you for posting. Do you see self-pity in Jack's comment (please see it quotation marks in my post above)?

 

Later in the thread I see that this was the entire conversation about infidelity. I had assumed that this was an extension of some further discussion. In this case I would assume, not necessarily that she is a b#tch, but that the subject is something she prefers to steer away from so she nipped it in the bud. Which in turn suggests, to me at least, that it may still be a sore point.

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Some people deal with loss being hurt - differently.

 

A related example - It might surprise you to know that cancer survivors may process their fight/losses/hurts/body changes much differently. They may not always share the same responses, empathy, or kindness towards other survivors. I am both a BH and cancer survivor and can tell you I have received both tremendous empathy and compassion - and also shrugs and "$h!T happens - move on" comments from different fellow survivors. Its not all a hug fest.

 

 

I am who I am, and my response to my various life losses are my own.

 

The only thing I might say is that as a twice BS - I have become a bit cynical of relationships, love, fidelity and sex - maybe a lack of surprise (empathy?) - but I can still get stirred up sometimes when I read about a BS being hurt by a WS

 

Really good perspective. Thank you. Makes sense. I've always responded with a nurturing sympathy to these sort of things. I've been surprised at times when people reacted with minor degrees of indignation. Your post helps me understand why. I appreciate your cancer analogy and especially that you are able to personally relate from first person on each issue...plus you mentioned being a BS twice. Jill has been a BS at least 3 times over her 30 years marriage. Just don't know if she's aware. I'm guessing she must be. Given your perspective, and that of others on this thread, I'm beginning to believe she must know and am beginning to understand how someone can react the way she did. Why stay with a serial cheater though? Thanks for sharing.

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BS-has being betrayed made you lose empathy for other BS's?

 

Now this is an interesting question OP (and I had a good think about it before I responded) and the answer is still "yes and no".

 

Yes - I would identify with the pain, distress and shock they were suffering and could understand how they were blindsided and confused by lies and gas-lighting.

No - I could have any respect with someone who chose to stay with a serial cheater, have more kids with them and then complain about the mess they were in when they finally did leave.

 

I can't comment on "Jack" and "Jill" as we only have a snippet of a conversation to go on. :)

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Thank you for your response. Good point that few people like when someone gets hung up on being a victim. Imo, Jack didn't present himself as a victim though. He's a worldly, successful, handsome entrepreneur. Her response surprised me being that I would have responded with more empathy. Here's what Jack told Jill that illicited her response in my original post:

 

Jack: "I wonder how what you wrote relates to this: my last long-term relationship broke my heart. I gave her everything she asked for and more. I was loyal, faithful, supportive, and generous. Then I discovered she was cheating. What do you think about this? You said people are prompts, right? So how was her cheating a prompt for me? It seems thar she was only very selfish. Have you been cheated on before? What did it prompt in you?"

 

Jill: "You will find no pity party for you here Jack. If you ever want to live a happy peaceful life this 'victim' mentality of how the world has wronged poor Jack has got to go. Who do you think you are Jack? "

 

Also, I completely agree with your last paragraph.

Jack definitely sees himself as a victim, and portrays himself as such.

 

"I gave her everything." No he didn't. He just thinks he did. I think that Jill doesn't know about her own experience with cheating and she thought Jack was whiny.

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