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when is it too late to forgive?


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Old 28th September 2013, 3:55 PM   #1
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when is it too late to forgive?

Hi everyone,

I have posted threads on this girl before but I am facing a new challenge and would be grateful for your thoughts. Apologies for the length. Please note, that I have already left this girl. I guess this is more a thread about when can we forgive, when is it too late, and when should we just move on...

In brief, I went out with this girl for about a year until I looked at her FB account on 10 August. She met a guy at a party around 6 weeks into our relationship (end of July last year) and she has been crazy about him ever since. She wanted to meet him in August/September and her emails were pretty much offering casual sex, but they never met because I think he had a girlfriend at the time. Then in November/December, they finally started dating and then she slept with him 3 times in December.

From 10 August up to now, she has been very evasive and blame-shifting, mostly by telling me that I was not giving her enough attention. She also told a whole series of lies about when she was with him to cover herself - I count 5 versions of the "truth". She clearly has emotional feelings for this OM, but I don't think he wanted a serious relationship with her. If he did, I'm sure she would have dropped me a long time ago. I guess that makes me her second choice.

She says that she likes me because I make her feel "safe and secure" and because I am loving and tender. Basically, she knows I love her and I make her feel protected. I don't know exactly what she sees in the OM but she clearly likes him.

About 2 weeks ago now, she finally admits that she has also been meeting him a few times this year, and that she even spent the night in his bed 2 times in August. She claims that "nothing happened" but I obviously I do not believe her. I asked her why was she even in his bed in the first place, sex or no sex? If she was serious about me, why was she even in contact with him this year after she cheated last year?? I suppose the answer is probably just that she was not really serious about me. But she never admitted that - she just stayed silent.

What really upsets me is that she seems to love me but she clearly has affection for this OM at the same time.... But then the times she spent with him are happy memories for her, and she is hardly fighting to get me back. Her only major regret seemed that she got caught....

However, in her recent emails, she is saying that she "thinks about me all the time", that she "loves me", that she wants me to "forgive her". I find it strange that she changes her tone now. Also, she asks for forgiveness but has not yet even told me the full truth of when she was with the OM, or why she did it.... I do feel she is trying to just get me back without doing any of the hard work of proving that she is trustworthy. Her view seems to be that if two people love each other, why can't they just be together??

.... I know all of you will tell me to cut her out and never speak to her again. Given what she is done, this is reasonable. I should mention also that she had a very difficult childhood (with a violent alcoholic father) so she finds it very difficult to open up and express her feelings to people. Part of me sees her as this emotionally traumatised girl who was probably cheated because she was scared of emotional intimacy with me. I think she felt she could not show affection or support because that would make her lose some "power" in the relationship and leave her emotionally vulnerable. And I think she maybe lied because she was scared of losing me and she grew up in a house where everyone lied. She does at least seem to recognise she is messed up because she is now getting therapy. Part of me thinks she does love me, but she is so out of touch with her own feelings and my feelings that she doesn't even have a clue why she cheated.

On the other hand, maybe I am giving her way too much credit. She is clearly still into this other OM and does not really regret being with him. She also had huge doubts anyway about staying with me and she is hardly fighting to get me back.... so maybe she is just a selfish and cruel girl who never loved me and was just with me to feel safe and secure??

I had been doing great with NC until this morning when I emailed her asking once again for the full truth of when she was with him and why she did it. I feel like she is holding onto these secrets because they are the last thing she has of controlling me.

All thoughts welcome. Thanks!

Last edited by James-London; 28th September 2013 at 4:08 PM.. Reason: corrections.
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Old 28th September 2013, 4:11 PM   #2
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Forgiveness is a very personal thing. You stated she still holds on to the OM if i read right and that she keeps contact with you for a controlling factor. So you are considering taking her back if she is willing and to do so need to forgive her? I would not if i were in your shoes but then again i do not have the emotional attachment to this girl that you do. It just seems to me that you are not a real interest to her, perhaps a backup or in between guy.
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Old 28th September 2013, 5:26 PM   #3
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Is she still seeing the OM?

If yes learn how to block her and go NC with her.

If not tell her to forgive her you would know all that she did. No one can forgive and not know what they are forgiving. Then go on with that you can not get back together with her. So at this point with the trust between you broken. Not wanting to have a relationship with you any longer makes the expense and the time needed to have you take a polygraph test pointless. You are past being angry with her and you have moved onto indifferent.

You know that she will be able to move forward and have a full life. Take care. Good bye.
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Old 28th September 2013, 6:45 PM   #4
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Thanks guys. Regarding the OM, I think she sees him as a friend who she is attracted to and has sex with every now and then. I think she would like to be his girlfriend but she knows he is not boyfriend material because he will not commit. I think she is now wanting to settle down (she's 30, and i'm 32).

She often talks about how much more important I am over him. But she is also a skilled liar. I have no idea if she is still in contact with the OM. I imagine she is as she needs constant attention and has not been getting that from me.

As seething says, she never really had much respect for me as this guy was on the scene right from the start. Maybe she "loved me" in her own way, but it was not the kind of love I recognise.

I would love to become indifferent about her. That way I would not care what she did and why. It was a mistake to write her this morning. At least she knows now that she did not answer my questions still.... I actually hope she doesn't answer now. That would make it easier to move on. Knowing the truth would really achieve nothing.
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Old 28th September 2013, 6:54 PM   #5
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In my view, forgiveness is earned. She hasn't earned it.

Acceptance is something different altogether.
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Old 28th September 2013, 7:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James-London View Post
I think she sees him as a friend who she is attracted to and has sex with every now and then.
Why are you lying to yourself and saying that "she sees him as a friend", when the rest of the sentence tells you that they are more than just friends? Stop making excuses for her cheating that you yourself know are not true. You said it yourself, you are nothing more to her than plan B. Going forward, even if you ended up marrying her, if the other man every wants her back in his bed, you know that she would be there. Time to move on and find someone that thinks of you as plan A.
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Old 28th September 2013, 9:19 PM   #7
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You are not married to her, with children. Yes, go NC and she does not respect you.
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Old 29th September 2013, 12:24 AM   #8
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hey guys, I just re-read in one of her emails that she didn't think we were that serious in our relationship. I think this is nonsense. But is that common for a WS to try to justify their actions by claiming the relationship was not so serious/important anyway?
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Old 29th September 2013, 12:44 AM   #9
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James:
It is too late to forgive when the cheater continues her flirtation, lies to you about the status of your relationship, sleeps in another man's bed, lies to you about not having sex with him, blames shifts and uses her childhood abuse to make you feel sorry for her and excuse her bad behavior, and doesn't answer any of your questions truthfully and with remorse. Forgiveness is an act of compassion you give to another when they are truly remorseful for what they did and promises do anything they need to do to earn your love and trust back.
Honestly, you seem like a doormat whom she knows she can behave any way she wants with and you will eventually forgive her and let her have you and whatever boyfriend she wants. The only reason she is still speaking with you is because the man she likes will not commit to her. I hate to be harsh, but you seem to be unclear that you are pining away after a cheater who is in love with another man.
Please read your posts on LS back to yourself out loud and try to see them as something a stranger wrote and tell me that you don't think you are being played.
Unabashedly,
Grumps
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Old 29th September 2013, 7:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James-London View Post
hey guys, I just re-read in one of her emails that she didn't think we were that serious in our relationship. I think this is nonsense. But is that common for a WS to try to justify their actions by claiming the relationship was not so serious/important anyway?

The word common in this context means often.

So I have to say no it is not the way a WW or WGF often acts.



It is the way WW/WGF's always act 100% of the time, act all day all night, 24/7/365 until DOA.
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Old 29th September 2013, 10:09 AM   #11
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do yourself a favor and just move on and find someone different.
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Old 29th September 2013, 10:22 AM   #12
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Why don't you just forgive her and then let her go?

Forgiveness has nothing to do with taking her back, forgetting her transgressions, loving her or anything. Forgiveness is for you. Forgiveness is to not let the feelings of hurt and betrayal define you moving forward.

"Honey, I've decided that I won't let your betrayal stand in the way of my happyness, so I forgive you for betraying me, lying to me and I even forgive you that you won't leave your lover. I wish you all the happyness in the world, but I'll let you go and seek my happyness some place else."
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Old 29th September 2013, 10:27 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James-London View Post
hey guys, I just re-read in one of her emails that she didn't think we were that serious in our relationship. I think this is nonsense. But is that common for a WS to try to justify their actions by claiming the relationship was not so serious/important anyway?
It's a very common rationalization.

She's throwing shi t at the wall to see what will stick.

Dude, just get outta there. She's a mess.
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Old 29th September 2013, 10:29 AM   #14
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Grumps - thanks for your thoughts. I do understand that she is not remotely ready for forgiveness for all the reasons you have said. I will not even consider taking her back unless she starts meeting my needs. I can see from other posts what a genuinely remorseful WS is like, and my ex is a million miles away from this! Even if she does start doing "everything right" (which is very unlikely), I can't see how I would ever forgive or trust her now anyway, so a future relationship would be pointless.

My big "aha moment" was realising that she was never really committed to me in the first place. She never really sacrificed or invested that much during the relationship, and she never really fought for me once all the infidelity started coming out. I do think she misses me but that is because she needed the support I gave her, not because she loved me. I think I was probably too needy to leave also, if I'm being honest.

You tell me that I am being a doormat. Looking back, I can see I really was a doormat - I should have put my foot down on many things a long time ago. However, I am not being a doormat now. She is the one saying she "loves me" and "wants my forgiveness", and I am the one telling her that forgiveness is not even an option until she is honest about what she did and why...

Finally, I know I don't want her back now, and I'm certainly not pining for her. However, I am not yet at the stage where I am totally indifferent to knowing when she cheated and why. I am getting towards that, but its a case of 2 steps forward and 1 step back. I am (semi) functional now, so at least that is progress...

Road - I guess if she needs to use a that kind of twisted rationalisation to help her process what she has done, then that's fine by me.

Last edited by James-London; 29th September 2013 at 10:45 AM.. Reason: corrections
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Old 29th September 2013, 1:18 PM   #15
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James, step away from the email system. She has played you and used you. She finds the 'wow' factor with this other person and sees you as a safety net.
It is always difficult to walk away from someone you want but there has to be a limit as to what behaviour you can accept from her. She slept with this guy and is still trying to.

Get your head up high, and hold it there with pride honor and dignity. She CANNOT have her cake and eat it. The bridge looks pretty burnt from this side of the screen.
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