Jump to content

when is it too late to forgive?


James-London

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone,

 

I have posted threads on this girl before but I am facing a new challenge and would be grateful for your thoughts. Apologies for the length. Please note, that I have already left this girl. I guess this is more a thread about when can we forgive, when is it too late, and when should we just move on...

 

In brief, I went out with this girl for about a year until I looked at her FB account on 10 August. She met a guy at a party around 6 weeks into our relationship (end of July last year) and she has been crazy about him ever since. She wanted to meet him in August/September and her emails were pretty much offering casual sex, but they never met because I think he had a girlfriend at the time. Then in November/December, they finally started dating and then she slept with him 3 times in December.

 

From 10 August up to now, she has been very evasive and blame-shifting, mostly by telling me that I was not giving her enough attention. She also told a whole series of lies about when she was with him to cover herself - I count 5 versions of the "truth". She clearly has emotional feelings for this OM, but I don't think he wanted a serious relationship with her. If he did, I'm sure she would have dropped me a long time ago. I guess that makes me her second choice.

 

She says that she likes me because I make her feel "safe and secure" and because I am loving and tender. Basically, she knows I love her and I make her feel protected. I don't know exactly what she sees in the OM but she clearly likes him.

 

About 2 weeks ago now, she finally admits that she has also been meeting him a few times this year, and that she even spent the night in his bed 2 times in August. She claims that "nothing happened" but I obviously I do not believe her. I asked her why was she even in his bed in the first place, sex or no sex? If she was serious about me, why was she even in contact with him this year after she cheated last year?? I suppose the answer is probably just that she was not really serious about me. But she never admitted that - she just stayed silent.

 

What really upsets me is that she seems to love me but she clearly has affection for this OM at the same time.... But then the times she spent with him are happy memories for her, and she is hardly fighting to get me back. Her only major regret seemed that she got caught....

 

However, in her recent emails, she is saying that she "thinks about me all the time", that she "loves me", that she wants me to "forgive her". I find it strange that she changes her tone now. Also, she asks for forgiveness but has not yet even told me the full truth of when she was with the OM, or why she did it.... I do feel she is trying to just get me back without doing any of the hard work of proving that she is trustworthy. Her view seems to be that if two people love each other, why can't they just be together??

 

.... I know all of you will tell me to cut her out and never speak to her again. Given what she is done, this is reasonable. I should mention also that she had a very difficult childhood (with a violent alcoholic father) so she finds it very difficult to open up and express her feelings to people. Part of me sees her as this emotionally traumatised girl who was probably cheated because she was scared of emotional intimacy with me. I think she felt she could not show affection or support because that would make her lose some "power" in the relationship and leave her emotionally vulnerable. And I think she maybe lied because she was scared of losing me and she grew up in a house where everyone lied. She does at least seem to recognise she is messed up because she is now getting therapy. Part of me thinks she does love me, but she is so out of touch with her own feelings and my feelings that she doesn't even have a clue why she cheated.

 

On the other hand, maybe I am giving her way too much credit. She is clearly still into this other OM and does not really regret being with him. She also had huge doubts anyway about staying with me and she is hardly fighting to get me back.... so maybe she is just a selfish and cruel girl who never loved me and was just with me to feel safe and secure??

 

I had been doing great with NC until this morning when I emailed her asking once again for the full truth of when she was with him and why she did it. I feel like she is holding onto these secrets because they are the last thing she has of controlling me.

 

All thoughts welcome. Thanks!

Edited by James-London
corrections.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgiveness is a very personal thing. You stated she still holds on to the OM if i read right and that she keeps contact with you for a controlling factor. So you are considering taking her back if she is willing and to do so need to forgive her? I would not if i were in your shoes but then again i do not have the emotional attachment to this girl that you do. It just seems to me that you are not a real interest to her, perhaps a backup or in between guy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is she still seeing the OM?

 

If yes learn how to block her and go NC with her.

 

If not tell her to forgive her you would know all that she did. No one can forgive and not know what they are forgiving. Then go on with that you can not get back together with her. So at this point with the trust between you broken. Not wanting to have a relationship with you any longer makes the expense and the time needed to have you take a polygraph test pointless. You are past being angry with her and you have moved onto indifferent.

 

You know that she will be able to move forward and have a full life. Take care. Good bye.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author

Thanks guys. Regarding the OM, I think she sees him as a friend who she is attracted to and has sex with every now and then. I think she would like to be his girlfriend but she knows he is not boyfriend material because he will not commit. I think she is now wanting to settle down (she's 30, and i'm 32).

 

She often talks about how much more important I am over him. But she is also a skilled liar. I have no idea if she is still in contact with the OM. I imagine she is as she needs constant attention and has not been getting that from me.

 

As seething says, she never really had much respect for me as this guy was on the scene right from the start. Maybe she "loved me" in her own way, but it was not the kind of love I recognise.

 

I would love to become indifferent about her. That way I would not care what she did and why. It was a mistake to write her this morning. At least she knows now that she did not answer my questions still.... I actually hope she doesn't answer now. That would make it easier to move on. Knowing the truth would really achieve nothing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I think she sees him as a friend who she is attracted to and has sex with every now and then.
Why are you lying to yourself and saying that "she sees him as a friend", when the rest of the sentence tells you that they are more than just friends? Stop making excuses for her cheating that you yourself know are not true. You said it yourself, you are nothing more to her than plan B. Going forward, even if you ended up marrying her, if the other man every wants her back in his bed, you know that she would be there. Time to move on and find someone that thinks of you as plan A.
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author

hey guys, I just re-read in one of her emails that she didn't think we were that serious in our relationship. I think this is nonsense. But is that common for a WS to try to justify their actions by claiming the relationship was not so serious/important anyway?

Link to post
Share on other sites

James:

It is too late to forgive when the cheater continues her flirtation, lies to you about the status of your relationship, sleeps in another man's bed, lies to you about not having sex with him, blames shifts and uses her childhood abuse to make you feel sorry for her and excuse her bad behavior, and doesn't answer any of your questions truthfully and with remorse. Forgiveness is an act of compassion you give to another when they are truly remorseful for what they did and promises do anything they need to do to earn your love and trust back.

Honestly, you seem like a doormat whom she knows she can behave any way she wants with and you will eventually forgive her and let her have you and whatever boyfriend she wants. The only reason she is still speaking with you is because the man she likes will not commit to her. I hate to be harsh, but you seem to be unclear that you are pining away after a cheater who is in love with another man.

Please read your posts on LS back to yourself out loud and try to see them as something a stranger wrote and tell me that you don't think you are being played.

Unabashedly,

Grumps

Link to post
Share on other sites
hey guys, I just re-read in one of her emails that she didn't think we were that serious in our relationship. I think this is nonsense. But is that common for a WS to try to justify their actions by claiming the relationship was not so serious/important anyway?

 

 

The word common in this context means often.

 

So I have to say no it is not the way a WW or WGF often acts.

 

 

 

It is the way WW/WGF's always act 100% of the time, act all day all night, 24/7/365 until DOA.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why don't you just forgive her and then let her go?

 

Forgiveness has nothing to do with taking her back, forgetting her transgressions, loving her or anything. Forgiveness is for you. Forgiveness is to not let the feelings of hurt and betrayal define you moving forward.

 

"Honey, I've decided that I won't let your betrayal stand in the way of my happyness, so I forgive you for betraying me, lying to me and I even forgive you that you won't leave your lover. I wish you all the happyness in the world, but I'll let you go and seek my happyness some place else."

Link to post
Share on other sites
hey guys, I just re-read in one of her emails that she didn't think we were that serious in our relationship. I think this is nonsense. But is that common for a WS to try to justify their actions by claiming the relationship was not so serious/important anyway?

 

It's a very common rationalization.

 

She's throwing shi t at the wall to see what will stick.

 

Dude, just get outta there. She's a mess.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author

Grumps - thanks for your thoughts. I do understand that she is not remotely ready for forgiveness for all the reasons you have said. I will not even consider taking her back unless she starts meeting my needs. I can see from other posts what a genuinely remorseful WS is like, and my ex is a million miles away from this! Even if she does start doing "everything right" (which is very unlikely), I can't see how I would ever forgive or trust her now anyway, so a future relationship would be pointless.

 

My big "aha moment" was realising that she was never really committed to me in the first place. She never really sacrificed or invested that much during the relationship, and she never really fought for me once all the infidelity started coming out. I do think she misses me but that is because she needed the support I gave her, not because she loved me. I think I was probably too needy to leave also, if I'm being honest.

 

You tell me that I am being a doormat. Looking back, I can see I really was a doormat - I should have put my foot down on many things a long time ago. However, I am not being a doormat now. She is the one saying she "loves me" and "wants my forgiveness", and I am the one telling her that forgiveness is not even an option until she is honest about what she did and why...

 

Finally, I know I don't want her back now, and I'm certainly not pining for her. However, I am not yet at the stage where I am totally indifferent to knowing when she cheated and why. I am getting towards that, but its a case of 2 steps forward and 1 step back. I am (semi) functional now, so at least that is progress...

 

Road - I guess if she needs to use a that kind of twisted rationalisation to help her process what she has done, then that's fine by me.

Edited by James-London
corrections
Link to post
Share on other sites

James, step away from the email system. She has played you and used you. She finds the 'wow' factor with this other person and sees you as a safety net.

It is always difficult to walk away from someone you want but there has to be a limit as to what behaviour you can accept from her. She slept with this guy and is still trying to.

 

Get your head up high, and hold it there with pride honor and dignity. She CANNOT have her cake and eat it. The bridge looks pretty burnt from this side of the screen.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Betterthanthis13
Thanks guys. Regarding the OM, I think she sees him as a friend who she is attracted to and has sex with every now and then. I think she would like to be his girlfriend but she knows he is not boyfriend material because he will not commit. I think she is now wanting to settle down (she's 30, and i'm 32).

 

She often talks about how much more important I am over him. But she is also a skilled liar. I have no idea if she is still in contact with the OM. I imagine she is as she needs constant attention and has not been getting that from me.

 

As seething says, she never really had much respect for me as this guy was on the scene right from the start. Maybe she "loved me" in her own way, but it was not the kind of love I recognise.

 

I would love to become indifferent about her. That way I would not care what she did and why. It was a mistake to write her this morning. At least she knows now that she did not answer my questions still.... I actually hope she doesn't answer now. That would make it easier to move on. Knowing the truth would really achieve nothing.

 

Skilled liars make terrible partners. Try to keep that in mind. It is *possible* that someday she will change. But it has nothing to do with you. Best to work on letting it go.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author

Thanks Betterthanthis. I just got back from a dinner with a friend and he was pointing to all the terrible things she has done during the relationship, both with the lying/cheating and more generally as an unloving/unsupportive partner. The problem I found is that I could always argue that a WS could be faithful in the future no matter how many times they cheated in the past. This is because past actions can never be a perfect predictor of future behaviour. I find that when we are desperate to fix things, we can persuade ourselves of some pretty incredible things.

 

However, what I do know TODAY is that she is not remorseful for what she did and she is not really fighting to get me back. That much I know for certain. Unless she starts opening up about her feelings, there is no point even thinking about her past behaviour and what this means for any future with her. If she starts showing real remorse in the future, then I might be able to forgive eventually. But we are not at that stage and I doubt we would ever get there. In the meantime, I will be moving on as best I can.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks Betterthanthis. I just got back from a dinner with a friend and he was pointing to all the terrible things she has done during the relationship, both with the lying/cheating and more generally as an unloving/unsupportive partner. The problem I found is that I could always argue that a WS could be faithful in the future no matter how many times they cheated in the past. This is because past actions can never be a perfect predictor of future behaviour. I find that when we are desperate to fix things, we can persuade ourselves of some pretty incredible things.

Of course no one can predict the future, but past actions are all anyone has to go on. You still sound like a doormat to me who is looking for some excuse to get back with his cheating, lying girlfriend. If that's what you want then just do it. You really haven't listened to much of the advise offered to you on this forum and I don't know why you keep posting.

However, what I do know TODAY is that she is not remorseful for what she did and she is not really fighting to get me back. That much I know for certain. Unless she starts opening up about her feelings, there is no point even thinking about her past behaviour and what this means for any future with her. If she starts showing real remorse in the future, then I might be able to forgive eventually. But we are not at that stage and I doubt we would ever get there. In the meantime, I will be moving on as best I can.

Ok, so is this your final decision on what action to take? Or are you going to talk your way back to square 1 again? You've dragged this drama out way, way too long. You're not married, have no children together - cut off contact with her and go find someone worth your love. Have fun being single.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you need to accept that it's not possible to have a relationship with this woman. She is seriously screwed up. You are wanting to make her into someone that she is not. She has shown you who she is. Someone who doesn't value you enough. Someone who is infatuated with another man. Someone who will lie to you and can't be trusted. Don't fool yourself into thinking she will be what you want her to be. She has shown you who she is. Time to accept that fact. By all means forgive her for being the screwed up person she is. Understand why she is that way, from a very screwed up childhood, and then understand that you deserve more, deserve better than this. Acceptance that this is who she is, forgiveness for her being a screwed up mess, and understanding that you deserve to be treated better and deserve a relationship with someone who is able to have a healthy relationship, would be the way to move past this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author

Thanks for your comments. I did mention in my first post that I HAVE decided not to get back with her. The main reason for that is because she is not in any way taking active steps to show remorse or fix the situation. She still hasn't been truthful about what she did and why she did it. However, even if her attitude totally changed, I cannot seem me taking her back anyway given the scale of the cheating. I have never had to deal with an infidelity issue before so its been a learning experience to decide what is a deal breaker etc.

 

I have read many posts now from other people on LS and I can really see the difference between a WS who was truly remorseful and the way my ex-GF is still behaving. This could be because she is just not that into me. Or maybe she is but she is also into the other guy and she feels I am not compatible enough with her. Or maybe she is just far too emotionally messed up to know how to do anything except for hide under her bed like the coward that she is.

 

I guess it doesn't matter the reason why she is not taking any positive steps to fix this now. The point is that she isn't taking these steps, and that on its own is plenty reason not to get back with her. In the (very unlikely) even that this changes, I can review the situation.

 

7 weeks down the line, the only thing that is really still occupying my mind is - did she ever really love me? And, what was real in the relationship (if anything)? I have read loads of articles on this now and opinion seems to be divided. I guess that means the answer is "sometimes". My personal view is that this girl has got MAJOR issues around loneliness, abandonment and self-esteem. When we started going out, she was not even that attracted to me. As soon as I was not physically sitting next to her, she felt abandoned again! For some reason she could also not emotionally open up to me, and she could do this much easier with the OM. I will probably never really know what he had that I didn't and I need to learn to accept that.

 

 

I guess I will never really know if she is so upset now because she loved me (as she says) or because she is losing her emotional security blanket. Again, I think I need to get comfortable with never knowing how she felt because a) it doesn't matter now I'm not going to be with her anyway, and b) she will very likely never tell me. I am trying to be indifferent about this, but its taking some time.

 

At the end of the day, she betrayed me in the worst possible way and she is making no effort to make amends, or even be honest. Hell will freeze over before I take her back without her doing the hard work of explaining and rebuilding my trust.

Edited by James-London
corrections.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for your comments. I'm sorry if I was not clear in my last post but I HAVE decided not to get back with her. I just wanted to share my reasons and rationale with you guys because I am very open to your feedback.

 

After looking at the experiences of so many other BS on this forum, I could really see the difference between a WS who was truly remorseful and the way my ex-GF has behaved. This is because she is (and always has been) totally into this guy, and she had doubts that it would work out with me anyway. I had these same doubts too.

 

My point above is that it is not worthwhile even considering what she has done when there is so little evidence NOW that she is desperate for me back and trying to fix things. She still hasn't been honest about when she was with him and why she did it. Unless her attitude that totally changed, I could forgive or trust her again anyway.

 

The one thing that still occupies my brain (7 weeks down the line!) is - did she ever really love me? And, what was real in the relationship (if anything)? I think she did love me - she has no motivation for telling me she did if she did not, especially as she knows it is over anyway. Because of her childhood she couldn't get emotionally close with me, and she constantly felt abandoned unless I was physically sitting next to her. It seems the OM helped her with these needs, and she was really attracted to him anyway. I also think she wondered if the OM was a better match for her anyway.... but after all of this, I do still think she loved me. I have spent a lot of time (too much actually) reading forums about whether you can love and cheat at the same time. Opinion seems to be really divided on this. I guess the answer is "sometimes". If she really didn't love me, I don't think she would have bothered to lie so much about or be so upset about losing me. She hasn't really tried to fix things because she is just too emotionally useless to know what to do, or maybe she doesn't think it can be fixed.

 

Although all the above could also be nonsense. It could be that she never romantically in love with me and was just using me until something better came along. I need to get comfortable with never knowing how she really felt, although it does still nag at me... I am trying to be indifferent to that, but its taking some time.

 

None of this changes the decision though. She betrayed me in the worst possible way and she is making no effort to make amends, or even be honest. Hell will freeze over before I take her back without her doing the hard work of explaining and rebuilding my trust.

She's too messed up to try to rebuild anything with her. She's not capable of having a healthy relationship in the state she's in. That's not going to change anytime soon. There is nothing you can do to make this work. I know you want answers and want closure of some kind. It sounds to me like she was using you as her fall back guy. Her safe guy. While she pursued someone else, hoping that it would eventually work out with the other guy. Or maybe she loved you in some way, but needed that attention from the other guy, and needed his love as well. Some people who have not gotten enough validation from parents, are extremely needy as adults, and need constant attention and validation from as many people of the opposite sex as they can manage. Those are the types that have a lot of trouble letting go of their exes, and are very susceptible/receptive to getting attention from others outside of their primary relationship. They are trying to fill a need that was never satisfied as a child, and they are like a black hole of unending need that can never be satisfied. No amount of attention will ever be enough for them. I know both a man and a woman who have these borderline tendencies (fear of abandonment, obsessive need for validation). Perhaps she did love you in some way, or perhaps you were just her fall back guy while she pursued the one she really wanted. I don't know, but whichever it is, she is not capable of having a healthy relationship. Understanding that will help you to let go and move on, even if you don't have all the answers you feel you need to get closure. I doubt she even knows how she really feels, or has any understanding to her feelings or emotions.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author

Thanks Kathy. I think you hit the nail on the head. There could be any number of reasons why she cheated, and is still behaving in a disrespectful way. I think the thing is that I have identified my boundaries and my own needs, and this girl is falling way short of the minimum level of respect I deserve.

 

If she is doing it because she really wanted me but is emotionally messed up, then I pity her. If she is doing it because she wanted him and I was 2nd choice, then I wish her well in getting him. (Ironically, I think he is treating her in a similar way to how she treated me). What is clear is that she was never that invested or committed to me, and I need to find someone who is.

 

Thanks for all your help!... I think this is resolved now. Well, I hope so at least!!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

James, I am so glad you came to what seems an obvious solution. Keep standing up for yourself whilst it seems tough, and she tries again in between whatever else episodes she's up to. You will be strong again soon to meet someone else, it just doesn't seem like it now.

You will come out of this well if you manage to stand your ground.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
James-London

thanks Pete. I spent 2 hours on the phone last night with one of my friends trying to work out why she did it and what I meant to her. in the end, we just didn't know. I suppose it was useful to define the boundaries of what we still don't know and think about best/worst case scenarios.

 

The thing is that she understands it is over - she knows I will not take her back. So, I don't understand the point of holding onto her secrets about when she was with him, why she did it, and what she really felt for each of us. Although I still do not know the actual answers, I feel I have gone through it all and at least defined the range of possibilities. I found that quite therapeutic. I also know I have asked her for this information clearly and repeatedly with no results.

 

Part of my culture and upbringing is very much this idea of "fair play". So, if I was in her situation, I might have lied a bit if I thought it could save the relationships. But I would have definitely told the truth if I knew my other partner wanted the truth and the relationship was over anyway.... After 7 weeks of this hell, I just find her behaviour of still holding back from me to be really immature, cowardly and selfish. She is only thinking about herself. And she probably thinks that my memory of her will be better if I don't know the whole truth. She is mistaken. My last memory will be of a person who never had the honour to own up to all the things she did, even at the very end.

 

I suppose this behaviour just makes it easier to move on. She is clearly someone who does not share my values or just does not have the moral character to act according to them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
×
×
  • Create New...