Excuses and more excuses

[lolapalooza]

I was here a few months ago to try to read and learn. I didn't care for the atmosphere on a certain forum, so lurked and then moved on. Out of curiosity (and a little hope I guess) I came back.

 

Nothing has changed. Just more excuses.

"My behavior is perfectly acceptable in my country."

"Our relationship is okay because we love each other."

"I'm not the one cheating, so I'm not hurting anyone."

 

Where's the personal responsibility? Why do they keep making excuses for one another? I am not bashing, I am truly trying to understand that kind of mentality.

 

A little help please?

[MizFit]

I was here a few months ago to try to read and learn. I didn't care for the atmosphere on a certain forum, so lurked and then moved on. Out of curiosity (and a little hope I guess) I came back.

 

Nothing has changed. Just more excuses.

"My behavior is perfectly acceptable in my country."

You evidently think the world should conform to your views and not vary regardless of their beliefs or history or for any other reason. Good luck with that...

 

"Our relationship is okay because we love each other."

Spoken by my best friend when she was 25 and about to go into a relationship with a man that beat her so badly she is now in hiding from him. Spoken by a man I worked with when getting involved with a woman we knew who was an active alcoholic. Everyone learns their lessons at their pace, not yours or anyone else who is on this or any forum.

 

"I'm not the one cheating, so I'm not hurting anyone."

I'm not the one cheating and I'm not hurting anyone. When my exH cheated on me it had nothing to do with the OW...I have nothing to do with the M-he is cheating on her.

 

Where's the personal responsibility? Why do they keep making excuses for one another? I am not bashing, I am truly trying to understand that kind of mentality.

Excuses for one another...because we are trying to answer questions and participate in conversations. You believe what you want...also as far as you 'not bashing'...I would disagree with that. Some of these things have been explained and written over and over again...I don't think you are trying to understand, I think you are trying to get across your point of view and invalidate anyone who doesn't agree with you.

 

My 2P...

A little help please?

 

 

Answers in bold...

[Spark1111]

Welcome back, Lola!

 

Former BS here.....not sure I will be helpful.

 

I think when we are in love, some have to justify the "rightness" of that love, by any means or reasons available.....

 

 

That's all I got for you.

 

Sorry.

[lolapalooza]

Invalidation?

Let's talk about invalidation, shall we?

From what I've read, any views that do not adhere to the "excuses" listed above are written off as bitter, sour grapes, uninformed, unenlightened, etc.

How's that for invalidation?

[Spark1111]

Answers in bold...

 

Mizfit, can't dismiss Lola's POV.

 

So many share this POV. If they didn't, there would be no need for LS to debate about it on.

[lolapalooza]

Welcome back, Lola!

 

Former BS here.....not sure I will be helpful.

 

I think when we are in love, some have to justify the "rightness" of that love, by any means or reasons available.....

 

 

That's all I got for you.

 

Sorry.

Thank you for your constructive comment. Much like a shopping addict justifies a purchase by saying it was on sale? This, I can understand, thank you. I do understand justification, but when someone points out to me that I already have 50 pair of summer sandals, I must be open to that comment, no? I couldn't just make my sale arguement, and write everyone else off as uninformed, could I?

[MizFit]

Mizfit, can't dismiss Lola's POV.

 

So many share this POV. If they didn't, there would be no need for LS to debate about it on.

 

I'm not dismissing it at all...I'm just not accepting the fact that this thread is not much more than taking an opportunity to gather what she isn't liking for peoples answers and putting it all in one place, but there isn't a bit of it that sounds like she is trying to be understanding, as her last line says she is.

 

We are all welcome to our points of view...I have respectfully and happily agreed to disagree with anyone who is willing to do the same with me. I have no problem ending a debate saying...I don't understand, but I'm never going to judge you on it. You're one of the ones I do that with on a regular basis.

[MizFit]

Invalidation?

Let's talk about invalidation, shall we?

From what I've read, any views that do not adhere to the "excuses" listed above are written off as bitter, sour grapes, uninformed, unenlightened, etc.

How's that for invalidation?

 

I would really like for you to take any part of the exchanges you and I have had today and tell me where I've said you were bitter, suffering from sour grapes, were uninformed or unenlightened. I absolutely have said that I think your expectation that all cultures in the world should be what you want to them isn't very realistic. I may be wrong but I don't think I said you were any of the things you listed above.

 

I actually would appreciate you showing me where that's actually happened. I may not be able to support what anyone else has said, but I'd like to see what is being said that I'm not seeing. I'm not talking about someone posting to you, or anyone else, with a reasoned response...I'm talking about an aggressive or undeservedly defensive manner, which is what I'm gathering you're speaking of.

[turnstone]

This whole culture thing is a red herring. If affairs etc. were fine and dandy in these countries, no OW from them would be here bleating about how the MM needs to make a choice between her and the BW or how she's his primary love interest blah, blah. She'd just accept the status quo, his wife is for home and family, she's for sex and that would be that. Look at France's past where a huge number of married men had mistresses, but that's all they were and they knew it.

 

C'est la vie.

[White Dove]

I don't even think culture has anything to do with it.

[MizFit]

This whole culture thing is a red herring. If affairs etc. were fine and dandy in these countries, no OW from them would be here bleating about how the MM needs to make a choice between her and the BW or how she's his primary love interest blah, blah. She'd just accept the status quo, his wife is for home and family, she's for sex and that would be that. Look at France's past where a huge number of married men had mistresses, but that's all they were and they knew it.

 

C'est la vie.

 

And more than likely they wanted more...that didn't mean the practice of having a mistress wasn't accepted for all parties.

[MizFit]

I don't even think culture has anything to do with it.

 

You are absolutely welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't change the reality of the world beyond your own...it just means you don't accept it and that is entirely your choice.

[White Dove]

I think when we are in love, some have to justify the "rightness" of that love, by any means or reasons available.....

 

You're right about that. It doesn't just apply to those involve with MM/MW, even those who are/were in abusive relationships. But there's just something else with OW/OM when it comes to justifying their behaviour/choice or whatever they call it.

[turnstone]

And more than likely they wanted more...that didn't mean the practice of having a mistress wasn't accepted for all parties.

 

No, I really don't think they did want more. Being a mistress was the point, the end game. And yes, of course all parties knew the scenario and knew it wasn't going to change, quite unlike in the cultures referred to on LS.

[MizFit]

No, I really don't think they did want more. Being a mistress was the point, the end game. And yes, of course all parties knew the scenario and knew it wasn't going to change, quite unlike in the cultures referred to on LS.

 

Just because you know something is your lot in life doesn't mean you don't dream of what it could be. I absolutely agree that was the role of the mistress, but mix in human emotions and I'm quite sure there was more wanted.

 

Actually this is an interesting topic in itself...sorry if it's t/j!

[turnstone]

I kinda doubt you're right, simply because being the wife to the married man had nothing of any benefit for the mistress. She knew she'd meet a single guy at some point and get married and have children, meanwhile she had someone else to provide for her.

 

I'm over stating it to make the point, but you get the drift.

 

These days, although sex outside the marriage in certain countries mentioned, may not be thought of as damaging emotionally to the wife (women seem to need a man, a husband, less to bolster their self-image there), they are, in my certain knowledge, far from condoned.

[lolapalooza]

I'm not dismissing it at all...I'm just not accepting the fact that this thread is not much more than taking an opportunity to gather what she isn't liking for peoples answers and putting it all in one place, but there isn't a bit of it that sounds like she is trying to be understanding, as her last line says she is.

 

We are all welcome to our points of view...I have respectfully and happily agreed to disagree with anyone who is willing to do the same with me. I have no problem ending a debate saying...I don't understand, but I'm never going to judge you on it. You're one of the ones I do that with on a regular basis.

What is it about you that makes you assume this thread was started about you? It was not. It was started for the reasons stated in the thread.

 

The reason I didn't put the thread in that forum, was because I wished to hear differing opinions other than those of the people making the excuses. Of course, people making excuses are going to defend them. Who would expect otherwise?

[MizFit]

I kinda doubt you're right, simply because being the wife to the married man had nothing of any benefit for the mistress. She knew she'd meet a single guy at some point and get married and have children, meanwhile she had someone else to provide for her.

 

I'm over stating it to make the point, but you get the drift.

 

These days, although sex outside the marriage in certain countries mentioned, may not be thought of as damaging emotionally to the wife (women seem to need a man, a husband, less to bolster their self-image there), they are, in my certain knowledge, far from condoned.

 

Interesting and I do get your drift. You're right...in thinking back to some of the biographies I've read etc a mistress to a nobleman was often promised to a jr nobleman when the time was right. Pretty harsh way to get married off...

 

You're right...it isn't condoned, but it is accepted on a much larger scale by and large.

[lolapalooza]

The excuses stated in the OP were just a general example. It appears that some use those excuses to justify their behavior, and dissenting opinions are either ignored or viewed invalid for whatever reason. This seems something specific to that board, that I do not see in other boards on this website.

 

I wished to discuss the possible reasons behind that.

And Mizfit, you have stated your opinion, thank you.

[MizFit]

What is it about you that makes you assume this thread was started about you? It was not. It was started for the reasons stated in the thread.

 

The reason I didn't put the thread in that forum, was because I wished to hear differing opinions other than those of the people making the excuses. Of course, people making excuses are going to defend them. Who would expect otherwise?

 

I didn't think it was started about me, but it was just a few hours ago we were having a discussion about cultures so, yes, I was going to address it.

 

You can put a thread in any appropriate forum you wanted and I think you put it in exactly the right one...I happen to haunt both forums because I have been on both sides and I also think it is invaluable for me to listen to every side.

 

I think more than 'defending' someone people try and help explain something from a slightly different perspective thinking it might help. Maybe that is defending, I don't know. I'll take the cultural thing into this discussion...you were dismissing it with no discussion and no acceptance that there is actually the possibility that other places offer different viewpoints. To me that appeared a bit narrowminded and I was trying to get home the fact that because something isn't accepted in one place doesn't mean it isn't in another. You were dismissing J-J and I really wanted to try and get you to see what she was saying.

[turnstone]

Saying 'accepted' is very like saying 'condoned'. What difference does it make?

 

No, I know that affairs, sexual or emotional relations outside the marriage are not accepted. Far from it. Wives do not stay in their marriages accepting their husbands are having sex with someone else, never mind 'falling in love' with an OP.

 

Once upon a time a woman stayed married for financial and societal reasons, reasons which no longer exist. Infact, the cultures in question that have been implied condone affairs, positively encourage people (both wives and husbands) who have been cheated on to get out of the situation and do so with alacrity! Hardly an example of 'accepting' this behaviour.

 

Anyway, as much as I would love to continue to prove I'm right ( ) I have a date..........

[MizFit]

The excuses stated in the OP were just a general example. It appears that some use those excuses to justify their behavior, and dissenting opinions are either ignored or viewed invalid for whatever reason. This seems something specific to that board, that I do not see in other boards on this website.

 

I wished to discuss the possible reasons behind that.

And Mizfit, you have stated your opinion, thank you.

 

Sorry...I was evidently writing a response to the other when you posted this.

 

I have stated my opinion and I think this could turn into an excellent discussion.

[jennie-jennie]

I was here a few months ago to try to read and learn. I didn't care for the atmosphere on a certain forum, so lurked and then moved on. Out of curiosity (and a little hope I guess) I came back.

 

Nothing has changed. Just more excuses.

"My behavior is perfectly acceptable in my country."

"Our relationship is okay because we love each other."

"I'm not the one cheating, so I'm not hurting anyone."

 

Where's the personal responsibility? Why do they keep making excuses for one another? I am not bashing, I am truly trying to understand that kind of mentality.

 

A little help please?

 

If you are trying to understand the mentality of the OW/OM, should you not be posting this thread on the OW/OM forum?

[MizFit]

Saying 'accepted' is very like saying 'condoned'. What difference does it make?

My perspective is that accepting is when a BS is fully aware it's going on, but chooses not to rock the boat. They are happy with 90% of the marriage and they aren't going to leave because of that small percentage. Keep in mind I don't think they are happy to have a straying WS, but they aren't willing to give up what they value to change it. I think condoning it is bordering on, or actually at, an open marriage. Full disclosure on everything and no illusion of discretion.

 

No, I know that affairs, sexual or emotional relations outside the marriage are not accepted. Far from it. Wives do not stay in their marriages accepting their husbands are having sex with someone else, never mind 'falling in love' with an OP.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong there. It happens every day all over the world. My mother took the decision so stay with my father through many As because to her it was important to keep the family intact at all costs and she had precious few options to help her keep a family safe and provided for on her own. My friends mother is 70 and her partner of 20 years is having an A, but she stays for companionship and financial stability. She accepts it. There are Ws of men who know they are straying, but they either find their way into an affair or they get on with their lives.

 

Once upon a time a woman stayed married for financial and societal reasons, reasons which no longer exist. Infact, the cultures in question that have been implied condone affairs, positively encourage people (both wives and husbands) who have been cheated on to get out of the situation and do so with alacrity! Hardly an example of 'accepting' this behaviour.

Interesting...that is absolutely not the experience I've had with people in the middle of the situations and the areas. I don't know what you're basing your information on, but I won't refute it because I can only go from my personal involvement with people within and the odd print and television news articles. I'll hold my opinion on what many of these cultures still include and you're happy to hold yours.

 

Anyway, as much as I would love to continue to prove I'm right ( ) I have a date..........

Have a good time...I had one last night and ended up watching a horrible World Cup match with England. I suppose at least we went out for a lovely Italian after so it was all good!

 

Answers in bold!

[lolapalooza]

If you are trying to understand the mentality of the OW/OM, should you not be posting this thread on the OW/OM forum?

Ive stated why I didn't put it there in a previous post, thanks.