The Nice Guy Syndrome

[WMGuy]

I’ve been reading the forums on and off for about 18 months. I could never narrow down the many issues my marriage has been having to put a post up for advice. A few days back while reading through some posts, something finally clicked. Many issues can be attributed to the husband being a nice guy and I am a nice guy. Many of my issues seem to be that I just try to be nice and go with the flow. I have a fairly new job that I love, but I’m barely staying afloat in. My 14 year marriage has been been mostly miserable for the last 8 or so years.

 

I hope that there are some others on here that are in or have been in the same situation. Or some alpha males that can give some advice on being more of a man dealing with my issues.

 

Some personal history: I have a half brother and sister that are 16 years older than me, so I am pretty much an only child. They hated my mom and never came around once they moved out, so our relationship is very distant. My father died of a heart attack when I was 7 and the man my mom was engaged to later died of cancer. The following guy she married, but he ended up being nuts and they divorced pretty quickly. All this was before I was 14. She later married twice more where both marriages ended in divorce because of mental issues and then alcoholism. My mother was always very alpha, demanding, selfish, poor with money, and sheltered me. Before she died last December, my wife wouldn’t even talk to her anymore for many reasons. My mother used to tell my wife about other girlfriends (very few), especially one that she really liked, and things I would try to do to win over girls. She often wanted me to put her before my family and when I didn’t, she would go nuts and we fought often because I didn’t.

 

I grew up being told to be nice to girls and to be romantic. Movies didn’t help either because being Prince Charming always seemed to get the nice girl. I was always friend zoned and was given the wrong advice by them because they always claimed to want nice guys, but always dated the bad boys. I always listened to girls complain about guys and I worked hard to be the guy they claimed to want. I was the guy that waited for the girl to kiss me because I didn’t want to be pushy. Plus I was shy and low on confidence.

 

About 6 months ago I heard Dr. Robert Glover on a podcast and immediately got his book from the library. I have been confused and thinking about this since, but it never really clicked in my mind. I was seeing a therapist at the time and asked him about it. He didn’t know anything about it and dismissed it like it was the latest diet book. I am going to purchase his book and read it again and I have started to look for other resources on this subject. So far, I have listened to several podcasts interviewing Dr. Glover and some things are making sense, but still confused by many items.

 

My wife has pretty much turned into a alpha woman and I have finally been realizing I am to blame for much of the current situation because I am a wimpy nice guy. Recently I told my oldest son that my hobby was trying to make mom happy. He replied that I should find something more realistic that could be accomplished. We have two sons that are 12 and 15, so I need to change not only for myself, but for them too.

 

My wife is really particular with stuff and here are a couple conflicts:

-I will clean the bathroom and she will be made that I didn’t put the rugs in the right spot.

-My son makes a big mess cooking some weird lunch. He actually cleans up, but forgets to wipe the stove top and a few spots on the counter. She focuses on what is missed and not the fact that he made a good effort on everything else. I say, that for his age, we should be happy that he cleaned up 80%. She just goes on a tirade that isn’t good enough and she can’t accept partial work.

-She actually complains that I park the car 4 feet away from the garage door. She parks so close you can’t get between the car and garage.

-She claims the kids won’t do anything unless she goes crazy and yells. I try to give the boys consequences for not doing what they are told, but she defends them and undermines my authority. I hear that we only have to listen to mom.

-I usually take the last shower each day and Friday night she was telling me that she wants the shower curtain closed all the way. I just said that we should leave it open a few inches for air flow to reduce the mold. She got all huffy and said that she was going to watch tv in her room where she isn’t getting criticized.

 

The kids figure that they are going to get yelled at for not doing this right, so why do them when they get yelled at anyway.

 

My wife is also having some health issues and hates her job (and past jobs) because nobody else does their jobs correctly and it affects her. I have asked to her to find a therapist on and off for the last 2.5 years. I was afraid to push to hard. I saw one by myself for about a year and she refused to come to any of the sessions even when I would make evening appointments. She had many excuses with the main one being that I tarnished her in the therapist’s eyes. I would just ask her to please pick a new one.

 

I didn’t really want to start complaining about her, but I thought I should give a few examples of our issues so maybe someone can help me understand better on what to do.

 

I tend to be very black and white and can’t seem to wrap my mind around where the line is between being a wimp and a sexist pig. It seems that sometimes we have to sway towards being a jerk because we need to do what we think is right. I understand that I need to take care of myself first and I still have to do things to make my wife happy, but what do I stop doing that makes my wife happy that makes me a nice guy? I hope that makes sense.

 

A lot of this seems to be hardwired into women and they can’t really control this affect on them between nice guys and alpha men. They will complain no matter what.

 

I’m sorry for being so long winded. I have a lot on my mind and no where to really vent. Thank you for reading if you stuck it out.

[Garcon1986]

Indeed this is the way so many relationships go! Your post strikes a chord with me because my ex girlfriend started treating me this way about 6 months in, and it became unstoppable. So here's what I suggest.

 

Read the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, from cover to cover.

 

Read the book, Corey Wayne's 3% man, from cover to cover.

 

When you get a woman into this situation, she is very much so at fault for doing this, but she probably saw stuff early on in the relationship that she interpreted as you being weak. This has been going along for a long time, so she gradually became more assertive.

 

What she is saying to you indirectly (I hate that women communicate indirectly but have learned to tolerate it) is that she is not feeling appreciated in some way. I know it's hard to appreciate a woman who's doing this to you!

 

Pick a time during the week when she is the most receptive to having a discussion, and then use the time to figure out what both of your primary love languages are.

 

And by the way your older kid is probably up to the point where dating is a consideration, so you've got your work cut out for you, you've gotta teach him how to date healthy too!

 

If she isn't receptive to counseling just like my ex girlfriend was not receptive, you'll have to partially play the counselor here. You are going to have to do some version of "I'll take ownership of my faults if you take ownership of improving your side of the relationship".

 

 

The hard part of this is not letting it come across as you trying to fix her. If you do, she will only become more resistant. Alternatively changing for the better in a relationship is always good.

[pepperbird]

First, please disabuse yourself of this "alpha" crap. From what I can tell, it's a theory made up by men, and most women think it's quite funny.

 

 

It sounds more to me like your wife is extremely particular, and assumes you are the same way. You aren't. You are also very unhappy, and I would suggest to you that you talk to your wife and let her know that attending couples therapy is a non-negotiable for you, so long as she wants to stay married.

Edited September 23, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redact full quote of starting post

[Mr. Lucky]

I’m sorry for being so long winded. I have a lot on my mind and no where to really vent. Thank you for reading if you stuck it out.

 

I think the die was cast in your relationship long ago and you're as much responsible as she is. "Nice guy" is just another way of saying conflict-avoidant, you're refused to stand up for that which you've believed in and those boundaries you should have. Your kids have figured this out instinctively, indicated by "we only have to listen to mom". You think this is something she's done to you, I see this as something you've done to yourself.

 

"Alpha" and "Beta" are just labels, and if you put your Captain's hat on and start issuing orders no one will take you seriously. You need to establich a track record of living up to your commitments, standing your ground and following through on your word. Make few promises but make sure you follow up on the ones you do.

 

What you're trying to do will be a disruptive change to your marriage, hard to pull off. With a 14-year history as emotional road-kill, you've got a Harvey Weinstein-sized perception problem. I agree MC would be the best forum in which effective change could be discussed. I wish you well...

 

Mr. Lucky

[BaileyB]

Indeed. Womens do laugh at the terms alpha and beta because they mean nothing. For most men, alpha seems to be synonymous with "*********" or a man who treats a woman badly - and the kind of women you want to attract in your life will not put up with that nonsense.

 

"Nice" guys get a bad rap. There is nothing wrong with being a "nice guy" - I'm dating a "nice" guy and I love him to bits!

 

Being a "nice" guy does not however, mean that you have no boundaries and you allow a woman to walk all over you... And, that is pretty much what your wife is doing.

 

She is responsible for her own poor behavior, you are responsible for not having better boundaries/consequences when she treats you badly. It's pretty obvious why you are conflict avoidant, given your childhood history... But, it doesn't mean that you can't be working on these skills with your counsellor and using them to redefine your relationship with your wife and/or your next relationship should you decide to end your marriage.

 

Best wishes.

[basil67]

The line between being a wimp (passive) and being a sexist pig (aggressive) is called "assertive". Assertiveness is the quality of being self-assured and confident without being aggressive. It is a learn-able skill.

 

Regarding your wife, you cannot make her happy. Her happiness (or lack of) comes from inside her. Frankly, she sounds like a pain in the rear end and you'd be better off taking your boys and leaving her.

 

In your research, do yourself a favour and ignore the sites which talk alpha/beta - they are written by angry men with little in the way of interpersonal skills and instead look at sites which discuss the difference between being passive/aggressive/assertive. You'll find a lot of the latter in psychology pages and books.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Your wife sounds insufferable. For the record, I NEVER (seriously, 100% never) have to yell at my kids to do anything. Why? They respect me and know they have to pitch in. But, basically, they respect me, and I respect them and they know I respect them. So when I ask them to do something, they understand I need help and they do it. I'm also not anal and super picky about things like a few crumbs on the counter or parking too close to the garage door. Their dad is like that, though.

 

Clearly, your issues come from having an overbearing, controlling mother. They say people gravitate toward people like the opposite sex parent.

 

My advice is to stay in therapy, but maybe find a new therapist.

[Mr. Lucky]

They say people gravitate toward people like the opposite sex parent.

 

I wonder if the OP's spouse has simply reacted to a vacuum in their marriage?

 

Only one side of the story posted here, but I suspect she might be as tired of her role as he is of his...

 

Mr. Lucky

[beatcuff]

I wonder if the OP's spouse has simply reacted to a vacuum in their marriage?

Only one side of the story posted here, but I suspect she might be as tired of her role as he is of his...

Mr. Lucky

i think you are on to it, pulling this line from the first post:

 

 

-My son makes a big mess cooking some weird lunch. He actually cleans up, but forgets to wipe the stove top and a few spots on the counter. She focuses on what is missed and not the fact that he made a good effort on everything else. I say, that for his age, we should be happy that he cleaned up 80%. She just goes on a tirade that isn’t good enough and she can’t accept partial work.

what you didn't say is who is this left for? your attitude of 'close enough' fails to recognize that the remainder of the task falls to ---- her? now can you see her frustration? and while your examples are all 'minor', to her it just might be her way of saying 'this isn't working for me'/'this can't continue'/'i am tired'. its time for you and her to have a serious conversation of the state of your relationship.

[WMGuy]

I wonder if the OP's spouse has simply reacted to a vacuum in their marriage?

 

Only one side of the story posted here, but I suspect she might be as tired of her role as he is of his...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I know I have changed a lot since we first married. About 10 years ago I got really depressed and let a lot of things slide. My wife really had to pick up the slack. I had a small business that I had to close due to mistakes I made and some outside factors I couldn’t overcome.

 

I was never an assertive person, but I was definitely more of a go getter. Nothing extreme, but I purchased my first house by myself when I turned 21 and started a business when I was 24. Since I closed the business, I was at a miserable job for ten+ years.

 

You are probably correct that she is sick of her role and would like me to take care of more things. She also wants me to be more dominating in bed, but I get pretty confused because she shuts me down most of the time and complains that I never try.

 

Work drains her everyday and she is on two parent boards at our kids school and has been volunteering for plays at our fine arts center. Admittedly I am on th lazy side and struggle with finishing projects.

 

Today I am going to finish a project that I have been procrastinating because it isn’t turning out like I want. She says it is good enough and doesn’t want to stick more money into it. She also wants our window air conditioners put away. So I will get that done today too.

[WMGuy]

Indeed. Womens do laugh at the terms alpha and beta because they mean nothing. For most men, alpha seems to be synonymous with "*********" or a man who treats a woman badly - and the kind of women you want to attract in your life will not put up with that nonsense.

 

"Nice" guys get a bad rap. There is nothing wrong with being a "nice guy" - I'm dating a "nice" guy and I love him to bits!

 

Being a "nice" guy does not however, mean that you have no boundaries and you allow a woman to walk all over you... And, that is pretty much what your wife is doing.

 

<snip>

 

I kind of found it difficult to choose my words on this subject. Thanks for your insights on this subject.

Edited September 23, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Truncate quote

[WMGuy]

i think you are on to it, pulling this line from the first post:

 

 

what you didn't say is who is this left for? your attitude of 'close enough' fails to recognize that the remainder of the task falls to ---- her? now can you see her frustration? and while your examples are all 'minor', to her it just might be her way of saying 'this isn't working for me'/'this can't continue'/'i am tired'. its time for you and her to have a serious conversation of the state of your relationship.

 

Some of the items she complains about is really hard to notice. I usually tell her to point it out the the one of us that missed it so we can take care of it. She should have higher expectations for me than our kids right now. She says it is easier to just do it herself. I’m starting to see that it is a symptom of it all.

 

We have had conversations about why she is still here and she says she hopes it changes.

Should we separate, neither of us would be able to stay in the school system we are in and she does not want to make our oldest kid switch schools.

[carhill]

If you want to divorce, separation is the first step.

[Sunlight72]

Some of the items she complains about is really hard to notice. I usually tell her to point it out the the one of us that missed it so we can take care of it. She should have higher expectations for me than our kids right now. She says it is easier to just do it herself. I’m starting to see that it is a symptom of it all.

 

...Today I am going to finish a project that I have been procrastinating because it isn’t turning out like I want. She says it is good enough and doesn’t want to stick more money into it. She also wants our window air conditioners put away. So I will get that done today too.

Like some other posters, I don't think you should be worried about becoming and 'alpha-male'. How about just stand up (I mean, physically stand up) 3 times a day, and look briefly around your home. Identify something an adult would do to improve or maintain the household and do it.

 

Stop putting your wife in the position of monitor. You are an adult. Do something that needs doing because it just needs to be done. Do it before, or instead of, your wife telling you to do it. Clean. Put things away. Fix the door that doesn't close right. Organize your closet. Do the laundry. Make everyone breakfast or dinner. Make a shopping list (without asking your wife) and go buy groceries.

 

And here is the key - do it because it is your life. Do not do it for your wife's benefit. Do it for the power of taking charge of, and building, your own life and home. This is being an adult - it costs nothing, but will change your world.

 

Best Wishes,

Sunlight

[beatcuff]

Some of the items she complains about is really hard to notice. I usually tell her to point it out the the one of us that missed it so we can take care of it. She should have higher expectations for me than our kids right now. She says it is easier to just do it herself. I’m starting to see that it is a symptom of it all.

 

We have had conversations about why she is still here and she says she hopes it changes.

Should we separate, neither of us would be able to stay in the school system we are in and she does not want to make our oldest kid switch schools.

only you can answer on separating but... you have 'had conversations' but what was the result? it appears she is 'yelling' fix it and you go right back to status quo. stop having conversations about the symptoms and talk about the causes/issues. then develop an action plan.

 

read your first paragraph above. sounds she is more of a mother. guessing she is tired of it. do you seriously need to know if the kitchen counter is clean? by this point you have to have some idea of her 'peeves'. and if you really don't then i can see her frustration.

[RedBaron2765]

My wife was a lot like that a while back when our kids were little (1-2 years old). Everything I did she'd bitch about - said that she needed to keep an eye on me as she couldn't trust me to do it correctly. In her next breath, she'd bitch when I wasn't home from work soon enough for her because the kids were driving her nuts. I couldn't win.

 

Finally figured out that when she got this way, instead of just taking it as I had been doing, I'd bite back. She didn't like it, but it helped a bunch with her attitude.