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What is better for kids? Divorce? Roommates?


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I am a man in my mid-40s and have been married for 21 years. I have three kids 8 to 17. I met my wife when both of us were just teenagers with little dating experience. I fell in love young and dove into a life with her expecting to never look back. She is a good mother, and does not have faults that compromise her ability to be a good parent or secure partner. But we have spent much of the last five years in a downward spiral that has brought me to a place where I am left with absolutely no feeling of love or connection. We have gone from a marriage with a good deal of fighting, to one where we don't even do that.

 

The roots rest in part with us having come together so young and both of us being so immature at the time. Over time I have realized I grew up just trying to be what she and others wanted. But the outcome has been that she wants, sees, and needs a version of me that is pretty far from who I have grown up to be.

 

We have tried couples therapy, individual therapy, relationship books, re-working our lives to make more time, and a number of other practical things to re-connect and at the end of it all, I am beyond defeated and frankly becoming depressed with struggling to stay with someone to whom I feel no warmth or love. And iciness has increasingly been replaced by resentment and contempt. But she wants to keep trying, and I think she loves the person she imagines I will go back to being. She has even said she would accept a love-less marriage over divorce for the sake of duty. In most ways that is what we are currently, celibate roommates. I don't want this to be the rest of my life. And I don't want the kids to grow up thinking that this is how a relationship is meant to be. I want a divorce, but I am still deeply concerned that I am doing it to selfishly address my own needs at the children's expense.

 

 

I honestly want people that have experience with divorce and kids to give me some perspective. I am not contemplating divorce where infidelity, addiction, or abuse are at issue. We are stable enough financially that a divorce will cause strain, but should not fundamentally change the security and circumstances of my kids, my wife, or myself. And my kids are mostly thriving, albeit they have been increasingly anxious as they inevitably recognize the tension and conflict between my wife and I. And they can see frequently that I am not happy. I worry that they see themselves as the source of that unhappiness, and I'm sure they are not learning a healthy model for a relationship.

 

So the question is simple, will my kids be OK if we divorce? Is it healthier to stay married for the kids even if it makes me miserable?

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Lots of kids grow up where parents are divorced. If you & your EX be civil for their sakes it will be fine. They should not grow up in a house where unhappy resentful parents are staying together for them. Presumably they saw you doing all those things to keep it together.

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IMO, staying together as roommates provides a bad example of what relationships should be. You kids may expect no better for themselves, and end up in unhappy relationships that emulate your own. If you stay, they will see you sacrificing your happiness for them, and may wish you hadn't. Kids also want happy parents, not just present parents.

 

I also think that divorced parents can still be good parents, and - hopefully - go on to form new, better relationships that provide a good example to the kids.

 

I left my ex for lack of compatibility and lack of any happiness in being together - no cheating, no abuse, etc. It worked out well for us both (she eventually found a relationship more to her liking), we were good co-parents, and our son went on to a very good education, a successful career, and a good, loving marriage. He has said my example helped - I found a great, new relationship soon after splitting up with my ex.

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I really appreciate you sharing that experience. One thing I have been curious about is how you went about communicating to your son. One struggle this past couple of years for me has been that I have been withholding a great deal from my kids in an effort to shield them from this. How did you go about talking to him? Did that come after you separated?

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Well, our son didn't know anything prior to our deciding to separate, but we both spoke to him together about the decision. It came as a surprise. Obviously, we didn't go into any detail, other than to say we weren't happy together any longer and needed to separate, it had nothing to do with him, and he couldn't change the decision. He had questions about where he'd live, and when he'd see me, etc., which we'd mostly worked out.

 

We talked a bit more as he got older and had some questions, and he also observed some of his mother's attitudes and behaviors that helped me decide to leave.

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littleblackheart

My kids are 12 and 9, their father and I separated then divorced some years ago. I left because the marriage was beyond dysfunctional so on that basis alone, I already know divorcing was the right thing for my kids.

 

As the daughter of parents who chose the 'roommates' option, I can hand on heart say it was 100% awful. My siblings and I felt the constant simmering tension between our parents - it was depressing at best.

 

It took me a really long while to cut the cords of a very nefarious marriage partly because that's the example I was set by my parents, and partly because of my own moral code (I'd promised myself I'd only ever have one long-term relationship).

 

If you feel you have exhausted all the options and you are at a point where you are very depressed, it seems like a no-brainer.

 

You can perfectly well raise well-adjusted, happy kids post-divorce. The only thing I would advise you to do is to never tarnish their mother's name. It's really very tempting to badmouth the ex sometimes but it's the single most hurtful thing you can do to your child during or after the divorce. If they know your divorce is down to personal issues between the parents that have nothing to do with them in any way, shape or form, it'll be easier for them to accept it.

 

When I told my eldest, I just said it was a question of [my name] and [father's name] not getting along, nothing to do with mum and dad.

 

The adjustment period is as hard or as easy as you make it.

 

Good luck.

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He had questions about where he'd live, and when he'd see me, etc., which we'd mostly worked out.

 

Honestly, kids by nature are fairly self-centered creatures, they'll want to know how this change will affect them. Those are the types of questions you'll have to be prepared to answer. My son was young when my ex-wife and separated, his first (and only) query was "where will my room be?".

 

I'll also add I seriously doubt your 17-yr old will be surprised by the news. Pretty hard to keep a lid on that level of tension when you're living under the same roof...

 

Mr. Lucky

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When I was young, I met a new friend and honestly didn't know that her parents were divorced for about 6 months. She would talk about both parents, they both came to her school/sporting events, and her dad would even go her her mother's house to spend Christmas morning together (he was in another relationship at e time, and she also had children).

 

That to me, was the very definition of "putting your children's best interest ahead of your own." They lived separately, but parented together. My friend now says, "I see that it wasn't always easy for my parents" and she appreciates them even more what putting their own hard feelings aside to be civil and raise their children well.

 

It is very possible to divorce and still have a very healthy, happy family life. I would rather have that, than two parents who fight or live together, but are both miserable. Good luck to you.

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PhillyLibertyBelle
IMO, staying together as roommates provides a bad example of what relationships should be. You kids may expect no better for themselves, and end up in unhappy relationships that emulate your own. If you stay, they will see you sacrificing your happiness for them, and may wish you hadn't. Kids also want happy parents, not just present parents.

 

I also think that divorced parents can still be good parents, and - hopefully - go on to form new, better relationships that provide a good example to the kids.

 

I left my ex for lack of compatibility and lack of any happiness in being together - no cheating, no abuse, etc. It worked out well for us both (she eventually found a relationship more to her liking), we were good co-parents, and our son went on to a very good education, a successful career, and a good, loving marriage. He has said my example helped - I found a great, new relationship soon after splitting up with my ex.

 

Exactly this. Your children will learn that marriage is meant to be contemptuous roommates.

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I won't advise you on what is best for children because I am not a mother.

What I will do is give you my perspective as an adult child who grew up in home with two unhappy parents.

 

My parents have been married for over 40 years. They STILL hate each other but they refuse to divorce. Infidelity and occasional physical abuse are unpleasant features of their dysfunctional marriage. I did not want to get married when I was younger because my parents made marriage look awful. I learned some warped lessons about trust and communication which I had to work out in therapy.

 

Take a hard look at your marriage and ask yourself if you would want this relationship for your children.

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I'll also add I seriously doubt your 17-yr old will be surprised by the news. Pretty hard to keep a lid on that level of tension when you're living under the same roof...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

Mr. Lucky you are right on the mark with my 17 year old. He is aware and already wrestling with his role in the household amidst our struggles. He has always taken the job of being the junior parent, but as long as we pretend like there is no problem it is difficult to be honest with him, or to really honor the ways in which he is doing his best to shield his brothers from the problems and create stability. He deserves to see that this is not how it ought to be and feel secure that we will be OK even when he leaves for college in a couple years.

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As the daughter of parents who chose the 'roommates' option, I can hand on heart say it was 100% awful. My siblings and I felt the constant simmering tension between our parents - it was depressing at best.

 

I am seeing some consistency in feedback from a number of folks about the terrible example that was set when they lived with parents that were unhappy and "sticking it out". I am feeling the same thing right now. But I'll offer that in the struggle that has been the last 5 years it has been hard to know when things were beyond the point of no return.

 

For me I lost hope once we had worked through nearly a year of couples therapy which helped me to understand my wife better, but also seemed to confirm my sense that we had fundamental compatibility issues. I have made peace with accepting that I would be happier apart. I think for my wife, she still believes it can be repaired.

 

She is the product of two parents that fought abusively for much of her childhood and then divorced when she went to college, and the same time we started dating. She more or less vowed to never fail at marriage the way she felt her parent's had done. To that end, in her eyes, unless there is infidelity, abuse, or addiction... a marriage can and should be worked on. I suspect my asking for divorce will go down hard for her, and it will take some strong adjustment time for her to accept that outcome.

 

littleblackheart, I particularly liked your advice about not bad-mouthing her to the kids. They love her, and they will always love and need her. It will be on me to own my part in precipitating the divorce and likely remaining patient while she works through the pain, anger, fear, and anxiety that the divorce will likely create. I actually have hope that once she has accepted it, she will probably work to be the best single parent on the planet. But the transition is likely going to be rough.

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She more or less vowed to never fail at marriage the way she felt her parent's had done.

 

Right now she's failing in a different way, but I'd guess the effect on family members is the same.

 

I actually have hope that once she has accepted it, she will probably work to be the best single parent on the planet.

 

You need to consider it's likely she won't stay single.

 

For me I lost hope once we had worked through nearly a year of couples therapy which helped me to understand my wife better, but also seemed to confirm my sense that we had fundamental compatibility issues.

 

It's rare that couples who do the work and take therapy seriously get so little benefit. Why do you see the two of you as so incompatible?

 

And the question I always feel duty-bound to ask - are you seeing or talking to another woman :confused:?

 

Mr. Lucky

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Mr. Lucky,

 

I would hope she does not remain single. She deserves a partner with whom she can connect. I should have said "best separated parent".

 

As for another woman. I am not seeing another woman, though I did have an emotional affair at one point during our fighting this past few years. My wife does not know. That experience was hardly constructive for our marriage, but the takeaway for me was mixed. It didn't really leave me thinking the grass would be greener elsewhere, but it did give me perspective on what I wanted for myself. Until then, I frankly had a hard time discerning the difference between me and what my wife wanted me to be. That insight could have been helpful in redirecting my marriage... but?

 

Well and that comes to your question about therapy. Truth is I have struggled to entirely understand why it wasn't more helpful. I sort of think I didn't want it to be. That at least makes the most sense to me. For upwards of 6 years I have wanted this marriage to end. It's been an almost existential need. I can rationalize it a bunch of ways, but I can't really escape that I want it to end, and that has made it near impossible to find a way back. I doubt this makes much sense, but all I can say is that it's what I have felt long enough to be almost exhausted by the fight to make it go away.

Edited by OwenW72
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Well and that comes to your question about therapy. Truth is I have struggled to entirely understand why it wasn't more helpful. I sort of think I didn't want it to be. That at least makes the most sense to me. For upwards of 6 years I have wanted this marriage to end. It's been an almost existential need. I can rationalize it a bunch of ways, but I can't really escape that I want it to end, and that has made it near impossible to find a way back. I doubt this makes much sense, but all I can say is that it's what I have felt long enough to be almost exhausted by the fight to make it go away.

 

Well, that leads to an interesting takeaway. You've implied you feel your wife is the source of most of the problems in your marriage, yet you were seemingly a less than full participant in the steps one normally takes to address those issues. Perhaps MC was something you felt compelled to check off your list on the way out the door.

 

Under those circumstances, surprising that you say your suggestion of separation and divorce will catch her off guard...

 

Mr. Lucky

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The worry I have for you here is that you have spent so long blaming your wife and marriage for your unhappiness, but are they really at fault or is it more about you? What is the real problem here?

Trouble is when you leave, you will take YOU with you.

Be careful for what you wish for.

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littleblackheart
It will be on me to own my part in precipitating the divorce and likely remaining patient while she works through the pain, anger, fear, and anxiety that the divorce will likely create. I actually have hope that once she has accepted it, she will probably work to be the best single parent on the planet. But the transition is likely going to be rough.

 

Well, you will have to grapple with your own feelings too for a bit.

 

When I left, I was taken by an overwhelming feeling of guilt towards the children for breaking the family home, of sheer exhauation at dealing with my ex guilt-tripping me into coming back and the practical ramifications that come with a divorce (legal, financial, etc). For me it meant relocation, a new job and full care of my children with next to no help.

 

However difficult the actual decision, it pales in comparison to the rollercoaster of ups and downs that come with it. You have to be 100% it's the only way forward, you need to deliver the news with as much clarity, tact and self-reflection as possible - it's irreversible, you own your part in it without making her feel it's all down to her and you make it clear what you intend to do re your children / financial contributions.

 

One caveat is that despite doing all this before I left (it took years of toing and froing for me), it still took him another 2 years to fully accept I was not coming back; this came with emotional blackmail, manipulation, abuse and provocations.

 

This hopefully will turn out differently for you but yes, in any event, be prepared!

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Well, that leads to an interesting takeaway. You've implied you feel your wife is the source of most of the problems in your marriage, yet you were seemingly a less than full participant in the steps one normally takes to address those issues. Perhaps MC was something you felt compelled to check off your list on the way out the door.

Mr. Lucky

 

Well, I don't mean to imply that she is the source of every problem. Afterall, I'm the one that had the emotional affair, I'm the one with these feelings, and I'm the one more or less giving up. In fact, I would argue I am a larger part of the problem. But I can only really speak to what I feel in this forum, and what I have felt for a long time is a need to be apart. I appreciate the directness from you and others on this front because it is what I feel like I need.

 

Both of us run businesses, and that has created a fair amount of time we both spend parenting separately for days/nights and sometimes longer stretches. When I have the kids on my own it feels great. When I am away from her and the kids, I miss them, but not her. And on the occasions it is just the two of us, I feel like I want to be anywhere else. I hate that I am that man, and the feeling honestly surprises me at times knowing that I used to feel so attached. But the feeling is deep and has been present for a long time now.

 

And yes, I think a part of me was using MC to prove I was trying, but it was more than that. I went through it genuinely wanting to be heard, wanting to understand my wife, and also wanting the process to breakdown the feelings I had and offer a new way of seeing our relationship. We had plenty of hard conversations and at times productive moments. It got us to a place where we could both communicate exactly where we were and what we wanted. But I also ended it still feeling a deep sense of alienation from my wife. I'm not proud of that because I do feel a responsibility to get to a different place, but it is there. Why? I mean, I'm fine if the answer is that I am the problem, but why have I spent over 5 years wanting almost anything but to be with my wife?

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I mean, I've personally never been married, but from the things you've said - it seems like you're done with your marriage. Sometimes, these things don't actually need a big reason, sometimes you just grow apart and become incompatible in the process. It's no one's fault and it's nothing to feel guilty about.

 

As far as your kids - children can have a happy, loving, stable and secure childhood with separated parents. It's all about how you handle the divorce process, your life after the divorce and co-parenting.

 

Again, I'm an outsider when it comes to these marriage things, but sometimes it surprises me how marriage is viewed with such worship that people are guilted into "never giving up on it". Why live in misery and constant battle to work things out, when it's not what you want to do? In it's core, marriage is a relationship like any other and sometimes it simply doesn't work out. You should strive for happiness, your children need that as an example.

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The worry I have for you here is that you have spent so long blaming your wife and marriage for your unhappiness, but are they really at fault or is it more about you? What is the real problem here?

Trouble is when you leave, you will take YOU with you.

Be careful for what you wish for.

 

Agreed. The problem with my marriage is deeply rooted in my role in it. I have spent most of my marriage lying in a way. I didn't have the maturity or clarity to express what I wanted, and instead told my wife I wanted what she wanted. I did this for 20 years of our relationship, all the while growing this sort of resentment and self-loathing about the way it made me feel unheard. My wife might well have appreciated knowing what I really wanted if I had just had the courage, clarity, and self-understanding to express it.

 

These past few years have enabled me to express it to her, and the effect has been jarring and disorienting for her. She very much wants that man she felt she knew for those 20 years.

 

For me the problem might be expressed that I don't want to go back to being that man I was for 20 years. I feel like I have come to have a sense of self-awareness and I feel alive in a way that I didn't for much of that. Yet when I am with my wife, every part of it feels like I am being pulled back into that person. In therapy we had a great deal of conversation about this, and I genuinely wanted her to understand what had changed for me. The hope was that we establish a new pattern and mutual understanding. But throughout that, she maintained I am having a mid-life crisis, and this is a phase. Understandably, she felt that she understood me and what I wanted based on who she had seen for all those years.

 

So I guess you could say that I am running away from a place that feels imprisoning. And no, I don't mean marriage with it's responsibilities or boundaries. Hell, if we divorce my hope is that I go right on doing all of the things that I took on as far as raising the kids, supporting her business, supporting the household, etc...

 

I mean the prison of our relationship pattern where I either go back to being what she wants and be subject to having limited agency, or stay in a place of near constant conflict as has been the case when I express what I want. And I know that if we divorce I will have serious work to do in order to not simply replicate that pattern. A part of me wants to be "Mr. Agreeable" and readily seeks approval by being a pleaser. I am pretty gun-shy about the idea of another relationship.

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Living your life for someone else usually ends up making you both miserable.

 

Why don't you try being authentic for a change.

 

Do you want your son to follow your path?

 

Kids learn from their parents for the most part.

 

What have you taught him?

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One caveat is that despite doing all this before I left (it took years of toing and froing for me), it still took him another 2 years to fully accept I was not coming back

 

First off, your perspective is really helpful, and feels very honest. As I have contemplated the divorce route I have felt so much of the guilt at being the one that would break up the family. And I think like you, I have been wavering back and forth about this decision for a while, but my wife is going to be much further from acceptance. She is a strong personality and fights for what she wants.

 

We have already had a number of conversations about divorce, and hard ones about the fact that I do not love her. At times earlier in our troubles, she was the one talking about divorce, but with time the dynamic has changed and she wants to fight for us staying together. I actually told her I wanted a divorce two months ago, but true to our pattern she didn't really accept that, and I did not push back even harder to force the next steps. For a divorce to happen, I will have to be extremely clear and leave absolutely no room for misunderstanding.

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OK, I'll be politically incorrect.

 

Roommates is the answer, as long as the roommates are civil. Kids just want a stable home with both parents. They don't give a crap if the parents are all "huggy-kissy-face", it's just a bonus if they are. I think most of the time when this is asked it is just people wanting to justify their divorce by suggesting "it's best for the kids". You was a kid once, did you really care if your parents were all huggy-kissy-face all the time,...no you didn't. You just didn't want them fighting and throwing dishes at each other.

 

This is just a spoiled self absorbed society we are in. If you lived in Roman times dad leaves the house for days, weeks, months at a time, hacks the enemy to pieces with a sword. He comes home, they kill an animal and eat it, the village celebrates hacking the enemy to pieces, he takes his wife in the house, makes a new baby. Leaves again to go hack up a few more enemies. Not a lot of happy-kissy-face and picnics in the park feeding the ducks. What do the kids do? The boys start swinging a sword at a tree so they can be like dad while the girls spend their time helping mom and learning how to do her side of things. When all the kids hit their later teens (if they live that long) the families arrange marriages and they get married off and the cycle repeats.

 

...and we are "worried about the kids" if mom and dad don't feel "fulfilled" and think the kids are better off being ping-ponged between mom and dad's place on a weekly basis.

Edited by PRW
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will my kids be OK if we divorce?

The answer is simple. NO. I'm sure they will survive, but that isn't what you asked.

 

Is it healthier to stay married for the kids even if it makes me miserable?

The answer is simple. YES.

 

It isn't about you being miserable, it is about you living up to your vows.

 

Don't be so self absorbed,...quit screwing up the marriage and you won't be miserable. You got married for a reason, and when you did you made a vow that said something like "for better or worse, in sickness and in health, till death do you part (unless it's "bad for the kids"?...no)". So if it is "worse, sick, until you die" that is what you vowed.

 

You think I don't know what I am talking about? I've got plenty of experience. My mom was married 3 times, my dad married 7 times and have step moms I've never met or know their names. Ended up not really being raised by any of them. The rest of my story doesn't need posted here.

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littleblackheart
First off, your perspective is really helpful, and feels very honest.

 

Thank you.

 

We have already had a number of conversations about divorce, and hard ones about the fact that I do not love her. At times earlier in our troubles, she was the one talking about divorce, but with time the dynamic has changed and she wants to fight for us staying together. I actually told her I wanted a divorce two months ago, but true to our pattern she didn't really accept that, and I did not push back even harder to force the next steps. For a divorce to happen, I will have to be extremely clear and leave absolutely no room for misunderstanding.

 

Yes, clarity and the conviction that divorce is the only option left will help. If you mind is made up, you kind of just have to say it, then do it (as in get the legal ball rolling). Waiting until she's 'ready' will only delay the inevitable - that's what I've learned with experience.

 

The flip side of this is that, after a while, after the feeling of guilt, then relief, then joy at finding yourself again, then and a few bad moments of doubt, things will be good again. You realise that you too as person matter, and so do your hopes, ambitions, dreams, etc.

 

If that helps, my kids and I are happy; we have found our balance - my boy calls us 'the winning trio'. You and your kids too will be fine, after the storm clears.

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