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Is love and marriage, work?


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mighty-nerd

I have another thread going, moderators if they need to be merged please do so.

 

A month ago, I told my wife I would like a divorce. I feel as if we are growing apart, and she's extremely unmotivated with respect to doing anything. I feel like I missed out on life. We never go anywhere, neither of us has any friends, she doesn't work outside the home and the only adult interaction I get is with coworkers.

 

Long story short, she attempted suicide, and I went and talked with a lawyer. Her therapist has insisted that we attend marriage counseling with him. I suppose I'm okay with this, but, here's my quandary.

 

She says that I'm not willing to put in the work. She says that she loves me, and that she has been busting her ass to show me that. I view this as an attempt to maintain her way of life, not to show me love. She takes no interest in my hobbies, she's unsupportive of things I want to do, she doesn't do any household chores, in short, her busting her ass is going to therapy a couple times a week. She says that when you're in love with someone that you want to be with them and see them happy.

 

My view of Love is different. I see love as an unexplained emotional attachment to someone that bears fruit on its own. It should not seem like work, it should not require effort. Effort will result from it, but they will be efforts that don't seem like chores or burdens. Things will just naturally happen. Both people will be naturally happy. She says this is stupid and then it's a fairytale. That people who love each other have to work to stay in love.

 

I told her that I already have a full-time job and a part-time job and I don't want another job at home. I want home to be a place to relax and be comfortable and have someone there whose company I enjoy who doesn't require me to constantly work at figuring out how to show her affection.

 

She does not appear to be interested in me. She says that she wants to do the things that make me happy, yet we've been together almost 19 years and she still doesn't know what those things are. But, since the suicide attempt, she's been almost pestering me with "what do I need to do to make you happy?"

 

I guess what bothers me most is that the model of one partner providing a list of things that make them happy to the other partner, and vice versa, negates the effect of emotion in the relationship. Two random people could be placed in a situation together, each present their lists, and the other person executes their list, and that would meet her definition of love, because one person is doing things to make the other person happy. To me, that is the definition of the work based relationship.

 

My version of love, the stupid fairytale version, is that two people meet each other and get to know each other and are interested in each other and are attracted to each other. They then learn by being with each other what makes the other person happy and they take joy in doing so. The difference being, they share the same interests, not necessarily completely overlapping lists of interests, but they get to know each other, they like each other, and things happen without feeling like a burden, a chore, or work. Things that show the evidence of love to the other partner just happen naturally and easily without seeming like work.

 

So my question to The Forum is this: how much work is involved in a relationship? I understand that from time to time issues arise and if those must be talked about and worked through. I'm not debating that, I believe it to be fact. It's just that lately, everyday with her has been a burden. She does not of her own accord do things that make me feel loved. The things that she does make me think that she is only interested in her own laziness and contentedness. I feel like that by telling her everyday it would be nice if we could do this, that, Etc, I would feel loved, the act of having to do that means that there is no love there. That she is only interested in financial support and basically not being alone. She says that by me being resistant to these things, that I am not willing to put in the work. I say that after 19 years, I shouldn't have to tell her daily the things that will make me happy, that it's past time for putting in work, and that she really doesn't love me. To me she feels like a lazy roommate who is trying to earn her way by simply doing things.

 

Perhaps I am seeking a fairytale. I've observed lots of couples however that live that way, and at one time I was with someone who just made me feel like she loved me.

 

I appreciate any and all help clarifying this for me.

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Love and relationships require work. Love is an action, not just a feeling - you have to show it, and that takes actions as well as words.

 

However, the more compatible you are as a couple, the less work is needed to maintain a happy and fulfilling relationship. Work is still needed, especially when you hit a rough patch or issue, but when you are compatible, the loving words and actions just seem to flow naturally.

 

There are also "love languages," which is a big fad in recent years. There is something to this, IMO, as how you feel and express love may differ from your partner, and it takes work to bridge those differences. If you share the same love languages, it's easier - because of greater compatibility.

 

In your case, divorce may be best, but you can still go to counselling with your wife and make the transition easier for her. She apparently needs this compassionate act, even if you know it will still lead to the same end result you want.

Edited by central
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Most successful LTRs/marriages that I have seen require both. Yes, you need the emotions, the passion, the attraction, and a bit of fairytale romance never hurts. But life isn't a fairytale, and expecting it to be one is a surefire path to misery. At some point your partner is going to be sick in bed and you're going to be feeling overworked and not particularly lovey-dovey and you're not going to be having sex, but you still take care of them, because that's the commitment that a LTR is.

 

 

That being said, you mentioned her "laziness" multiple times, so it's pretty clear this is the main bugbear for you. Does she not earn any money? Are you sure she isn't doing any household chores - who does them in that case? Why do you "never go anywhere" and why do "neither of you have any friends"?

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Why do you "never go anywhere" and why do "neither of you have any friends"?

 

mighty-nerd, I had the same thought - what does this have to do with your marriage?

 

My wife and I certainly aren't a model couple, we lead fairly separate lives. She's a homebody and has friends with similar interests, I enjoy sports, exercise and activity with friends that do the same. She likes to cocoon, I like to do stuff. We overlap on family, travel and our affection for each other.

 

Were I not doing the things I like, certainly wouldn't think she was the one holding me back. And I wouldn't expect her to take more than a passing interest in my hobbies and activities, they're not interesting to her.

 

You might consider expecting less of her and more of yourself...

 

Mr. Lucky

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mighty-nerd
However, the more compatible you are as a couple, the less work is needed to maintain a happy and fulfilling relationship. Work is still needed, especially when you hit a rough patch or issue, but when you are compatible, the loving words and actions just seem to flow naturally.

 

There are also "love languages," which is a big fad in recent years. There is something to this, IMO, as how you feel and express love may differ from your partner, and it takes work to bridge those differences. If you share the same love languages, it's easier - because of greater compatibility.

 

 

Your closing sentence of the first quoted paragraph - she and I both have to force words and she is clueless wrt actions.

 

My LL is acts of service. Hers is quality time. Yet, she literally is gone or asleep when I'm at home. I can't quit my job to spend the few hours a day available with her. And if we go out somewhere, we end up fighting or with hurt feelings. I've told her to make me breakfast or pack my lunch in the mornings. The first day I got two apples in the top of my laptop bag. Nothing else after that.

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Your closing sentence of the first quoted paragraph - she and I both have to force words and she is clueless wrt actions.

 

My LL is acts of service. Hers is quality time. Yet, she literally is gone or asleep when I'm at home. I can't quit my job to spend the few hours a day available with her. And if we go out somewhere, we end up fighting or with hurt feelings. I've told her to make me breakfast or pack my lunch in the mornings. The first day I got two apples in the top of my laptop bag. Nothing else after that.

 

 

I think you are somewhat missing the point of the "acts of service" love language. That's near the top for the SO and I, and neither of us would ever TELL the other person to pack our lunch for us! :eek: I can't imagine how you think that doing something like that would help save your spiralling marriage.

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mighty-nerd
At some point your partner is going to be sick in bed and you're going to be feeling overworked and not particularly lovey-dovey and you're not going to be having sex, but you still take care of them, because that's the commitment that a LTR is.

 

Agreed. That's not the type of "work" she's referring to.

 

That being said, you mentioned her "laziness" multiple times, so it's pretty clear this is the main bugbear for you. Does she not earn any money? Are you sure she isn't doing any household chores - who does them in that case? Why do you "never go anywhere" and why do "neither of you have any friends"?

 

My 13 year old is responsible for the kitchen, 16 year old handles everyone but my laundry, I clean the bathrooms and floors and wash my uniforms... We don't have the kind of "life" that I'd like to have. She is not interested in going to family gatherings or to the lake for a weekend. My co workers and relatives have people that they are only friends with - not related to, not a co worker, or anything that binds them together. I had two good friends that I'm no longer able to associate with, because spending time with them is not time with her. I've gotten the locked-bedroom-door or I'm-going-to-my-parents' treatment a few times. And then when she says "you should go do something you enjoy" and I refuse she doesn't understand why. And her saying "go and do" is her definition of putting in work. Even though she still reacts badly.

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My LL is acts of service. Hers is quality time. Yet, she literally is gone or asleep when I'm at home. I can't quit my job to spend the few hours a day available with her. And if we go out somewhere, we end up fighting or with hurt feelings. I've told her to make me breakfast or pack my lunch in the mornings. The first day I got two apples in the top of my laptop bag. Nothing else after that.

 

You're waiting for her to make you happy - ain't going to happen.

 

Why not work on your own happiness and see what this new self-satisfied persona brings to the marriage?

 

Mr. Lucky

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mighty-nerd
mighty-nerd, I had the same thought - what does this have to do with your marriage?

 

....

 

Were I not doing the things I like, certainly wouldn't think she was the one holding me back. And I wouldn't expect her to take more than a passing interest in my hobbies and activities, they're not interesting to her.

 

You might consider expecting less of her and more of yourself...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

When you go to exercise, do you come home to find her locked in the spare bedroom?

 

Does she tell you, with sarcastic / cynical tone, "I hope YOU had fun today because my day was terrible." At least half the time?

 

I don't expect great interest in my hobbies either, but one particular tine that stands out in my mind was when I got home a motorsports event and she told me "it's good to know that's more important to you than my happiness". I went to this event twice a year.

 

My sons now see her for how she is, and I sought a divorce, and her panicked reply and defense is to guilt me by saying "You don't want to put in the work".

 

 

I'm with another poster - I'd already decided to go to counseling, and he phrased it aptly: as an act of compassion to ease her pain.

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mighty-nerd
I think you are somewhat missing the point of the "acts of service" love language. That's near the top for the SO and I, and neither of us would ever TELL the other person to pack our lunch for us! :eek: I can't imagine how you think that doing something like that would help save your spiralling marriage.

 

I only told her because she asked, "what's something I can I do to show you that I love you?" What's a better response?

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mighty-nerd
You're waiting for her to make you happy - ain't going to happen.

 

Why not work on your own happiness and see what this new self-satisfied persona brings to the marriage?

Mr. Lucky

 

Her negativity I view as an impediment to my ability to seek happiness. Not wanting to be exposed to her negativity (paraphrasing her words) means I'm not putting in the work.

 

Edit: The 11 days she was in detox / inpatient care, I had no headache, no anxiety attacks, and my blood pressure was 25 points lower. Seriously.

 

I'm just trying to understand her viewpoint that it takes work to love someone. I'm jealous of people who have effortless marriages. Who brag on each other. Not point out faults and accuse the other of not caring. I cared for 18 years of marriage and got tired of feeling unappreciated, and when I seek an out I get accused of not caring.

Edited by mighty-nerd
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My 13 year old is responsible for the kitchen, 16 year old handles everyone but my laundry, I clean the bathrooms and floors and wash my uniforms...

 

 

Errr, okay... So do you guys eat out every dinner, a cleaner comes in to throw the trash and do the dishes and clean the living room and the shelves, the groceries buy and inventorize and store themselves, and the kids went to daycare from the day they were born until they were old enough to take care of themselves?

 

 

 

I hate to pile on you, but the work you're mentioning that you and the kids do sounds like less than 50% of the total work that's needed in a household. People who aren't doing the bulk of it tend to underestimate what is needed.

 

 

 

I had two good friends that I'm no longer able to associate with, because spending time with them is not time with her. I've gotten the locked-bedroom-door or I'm-going-to-my-parents' treatment a few times.

 

 

Hm, yeah, this definitely sounds like she might have a mental illness that needs treatment. How long has she been going to therapy for this?

 

 

I only told her because she asked, "what's something I can I do to show you that I love you?" What's a better response?

 

 

Fair point, in this context it sounds alright.

 

 

Your opening post just seems to have an extremely dismissive and caustic view of your wife, and I can't help but think that that must have been evident in your actual relationship with her.

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Looked at title and did a quick skim....

 

Was married and IMO a healthy marriage is a labor of love.

 

OP, you mention 'unappreciated'. That, to me, refers to being thanked in word or deed for your labors. That's nice if/when it happens but be watchful of such expectations and accounting. I tended to look at my labors as being gifts to the marriage. I don't mean 'labor' in a literal sense, like digging ditches, rather my offerings to the marital union in word and deed.

 

If you feel alone in the M, abandoned, regardless of thanks, IMO that's the time to MC and/or go. No sense in emptying your love bank into a black hole. Abandoned, to me, is when one's partner/spouse ceases to labor for the marriage in a substantive and demonstrative way. Someone can thank one for loving them but that's quite different from mutual love and labor.

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There are 2 pop psychology books out there by Dr. Laura: The Care & Feeding of a Husband and The Care & Feeding of a Marriage. At ground both are about appreciation for what your spouse does do rather than focus on what your spouse does not do.

 

Marriage is work in the sense that some times effort & sacrifice are required. For example, this week DH & I are going to the beach. DH hates the beach but he takes me once per year because I love it so. I try to work in things he likes & don't complain when he'd rather nap in the room then play in the sand with me. He likes to have a few beers on Friday nights at the local VFW. I'm not a huge fan of places like that because they rarely serve wine I like but we go every Friday; I drink water & then I drive home. It's a give & take.

 

I think your response about having your wife pack lunch for you as the "act of service" fitting your love language was fine. She asked what she could go & you gave her a reasonable specific response. Her giving you 2 apples doesn't seem like a meaningful effort on her part. Perhaps you can give this example to the therapist.

 

If your wife is so depressed that she's suicidal she may not be capable of giving you more then she is, no matter how little that is. When I was at my most depressed, getting out of bed & showering were sometimes overwhelming. If you replace the word depression with a diagnosis of cancer or back surgery does you attitude about her capabilities (or lack thereof) change?

 

It is difficult to be with somebody who doesn't appear to want to do anything with you -- see friends, go to the lake, attend family gatherings, etc. But what exactly is it that she does want you to do? If that list isn't unreasonable, why aren't you doing it? I get that you can't quit your job to stay home for her but is there anything else that the therapist may be able to come up with as a compromise?

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bathtub-row

I think she’s right about marriage being work — if you’re married to HER. Lol.

 

I hold to the same thing as you - that love and marriage should not be THAT much work. Are you going to disagree at times, etc? Of course. But if it’s a drudgery nearly every day, I say life is too short.

 

Now, if I were in your shoes, anyone threatening me with suicide if I leave them has just signed their death warrant. I simply won’t allow anyone to manipulate me in such a way. As I often say, “If you can’t live without me, how come you’re not dead yet?”

 

Ok, cold maybe, and a slight exaggeration but I think you get my drift. Your marriage is over because you’ve had enough. I say walk away and go live life the way you choose.

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MidnightBlue1980

You somewhat brushed over the suicide and in-patient time. That is pretty serious. Like another poster said, she may be capable of doing the things you want to do. She may be in a serious depressive funk which she can't get out of. Is she seeing a therapist, is she on meds?

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Lotsgoingon

The grand question you're asking--about how much work a good marriage requires--is a diversion, not really relevant to your situation.

 

You apparently married a low-functioning, low-energy, distant, passive, seriously depressed person, who couldn't complete the minimal amount of daily activities and household chores, and who couldn't be a vital and present partner in a marriage.

 

And now after 19 years, you are frustrated and tired of being married to a ... low-functioning, seriously depressed person who can't perform the minimal amount of household chores and can't be a present and vital partner in the marriage.

 

Seriously, not meant sarcastically (depression and mental illness run in my family) did you grow up among depressed parents or siblings? How in the world did you blind yourself to your wife's inability to function--her basic withdrawal from life?

 

You still seem strangely passive to me and not very curious or insightful about your wife or about your circumstance. Instead of facing the very specific situation you're in (being married to someone who can't function) you're averting your eyes toward some grand question about how much sacrifice a marriage requires.

 

Marry someone who functions at the lowest level, and no surprise, marriage for the higher functioning partner is going to be all work, all the time.

 

If you were a friend, I would support your desire to get a divorce. But I would also hope that you came to terms with your own role here. You co-created this disaster with your wife. And if you don't learn from the situation, you will easily repeat it.

 

I highly recommend that you get some therapy to strengthen your own relationship skills and overcome that passivity. And there is another, more urgent, reason I recommend therapy for you. Your wife's suicide attempt is a devastating threat that hangs over you right now.

 

By attempting suicide in response to your statement that you want a divorce, she's basically saying: Leave me and I'll kill myself.

 

You will need to be at the top of your game to avoid being paralyzed by her threat ... and you need to be ready and clear that it's not your fault if you decide to leave and she indeed carries out the threat.

Edited by Lotsgoingon
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I'm jealous of people who have effortless marriages.

 

I've met one couple like that in my entire life.

 

I'm a weekend hacker on the tennis courts, that's like me saying "I'm jealous of the pros on the ATP tour". It totally misses the commitment, hard work and consistent effort needed to achieve the goal...

 

Mr. Lucky

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I most definitely see marriage as a labour of love. It is work, but you should want to do the work... It's the old adage, everyday you should ask "what can I do today for my partner that will make his/her life a little easier, a little better."

 

Neither one of you are doing this. You are trying to solve the problems in your marriage by looking at the situation from your own perspective with little awareness or empathy for the other person. You are making demands, pointing the finger, and waiting expectedly for the other person to "do the work" (and then, criticizing the other as "not good enough"). You are asking - what's in it for me, not necessarily what can I give to my partner/my marriage.

 

I also think this is a perfect example of... when two healthy and happy people come together, they can grow a beautiful relationship where the needs of both partners are met. You don't seem to have this, and as a result neither of your needs are being met.

 

Your wife is clearly not a happy healthy partner. I agree, I would not stay with anyone who threatened me with suicide if I left the relationship - that kind of manipulation is unacceptable in my relationship and there is no coming back from that...

 

Finally, I hear you about the health concerns... If your relationship is causing you health concerns, then you need to think long and hard about whether it is worth staying with this person. Nobody wants to live that way.

Edited by BaileyB
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Mighty-nerd, the description of your wife screams that clinical depression must be considered as a potential cause. The lack of interest in life, always sleeping, not wanting to go out, snippy...not to mention the suicide attempt. It's textbook depression.

 

It's good that she's doing counselling, but is she taking meds? If she's not taking meds, would you be open to getting her depression sorted out before making a decision? Or is it all too late for you?

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Like anything worth having it needs to be maintained but it should never be a constant struggle with little to no joy.

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I most definitely see marriage as a labour of love. It is work, but you should want to do the work... It's the old adage, everyday you should ask "what can I do today for my partner that will make his/her life a little easier, a little better."

 

Neither one of you are doing this. You are trying to solve the problems in your marriage by looking at the situation from your own perspective with little awareness or empathy for the other person. You are making demands, pointing the finger, and waiting expectedly for the other person to "do the work" (and then, criticizing the other as "not good enough"). You are asking - what's in it for me, not necessarily what can I give to my partner/my marriage.

 

Boy mighty-nerd, you could pay a lot of money and not get advice this good or as specific to your situation. Hope you read it several times and take it to heart...

 

Mr. Lucky

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In my experience with two marriages, my first felt like it was hard work, was difficult and short lived. While my current (2nd) marriage has felt like no work at all, has been happy and long lived.

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It sounds as if you tried for 18 years and never got anything in return. Now that you have had enough she is wanting to do her part.

 

Once you two got married it sounds like the dating stopped.

 

Can’t blame you for wanting the divorce.

 

Over the years did you talk with her of what you wanted, about the growing distance between the two of you?

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