At the risk of sounding sexist...

[BettyDraper]

I am not one of those angry man haters who believes that all men are pigs or any other nonsense like that. However, I have noticed a disturbing trend with men my whole life and I don't understand it.

 

Some men are very selfish and immature. Those types do not take care of their responsibilities as partners and/or fathers. They expect women to give them everything while they give nothing in return. Plenty of men do not help with housework and child rearing, yet they expect their wives to be ready to have sex with them every minute. Some men are also very lazy and do not care that their actions are leading their families into poverty. I've also noticed that some men allow their friends and addictions to take precedence over their families.

 

I know that women are not perfect. However, I do not often notice the same level of immaturity and selfishness in women. I also realize that there are also decent and mature men who are wonderful to their wives or girlfriends. My negative words come from what I saw growing up as well as what I am told by my mommy friends. I wonder if it is society that gives men permission to be selfish and immature or maybe a lot of men are raised that way.

 

My father is a decent man who provided well for his family. However, he only did about 10% of housework and taking care of his kids even though my mother worked full time. I think my mother may have been a much better parent if she wasn't so stressed and exhausted. I was with an idiot who expected me to be domestic as well as offer sex on demand, yet he was very lazy and wanted me to pay my own way when we went out. I refuse to be traditional for a man who will not hold up his end of the bargain. The only reason I am a housewife is there are no jobs where we live now and the commuting costs are insane. When we lived in a large city, I always worked even if the job was well below my education level and salary scale.

 

A new friend just left her fiance because he was a cokehead and did not want to help with their three children. A close buddy has been struggling with her husband for years; he is no longer a member of his union because he procrastinated too much on filling out papers. Now they have no health benefits for their kids and one of them has special needs. Her husband is also working a job that pays 50% less than what he is worth because he has been kicked out the union. I am tired of hearing my friend weep because she has to go to food banks. Yet another friend complains about how her husband does not help around the house or with their kids, yet he is constantly after her for more sex and thinks that working outside the home is enough. I'm in a housewife group on Facebook and I read the women complaining about their husbands expecting them to execute family gatherings, while their husbands invite large groups of people yet do not lift a finger to help.

 

I am not looking to offend men on LS; I know that there are good men in the world. I am married to one of them. I also know that there are many lazy and selfish women as well; women who expect the world from men but give nothing in return. I have seen women who cheat on their hardworking husbands while their hubbies are deployed or travelling on business. I have no respect for people like that. The purpose of this post is to see if other women notice the same traits in many men and also whether they had any insight into this topic. Of course, men are also welcome to offer their opinions as well.

[sandylee1]

There are a number of men who fit that description from my observations. It's like they want the wife with traditional values who cooks and cleans etc... but they also want a wife who pays her way and is ready for action at the click of his fingers.

 

I say that the women who tolerate that kind of behaviour don't help them to stop.

 

I have said to my own husband at times in semi jest ... that I'm not going to do these traditional things . because I don't want our son to think a woman's place is in the kitchen..and I don't want our daughters to think they are meant to serve a man in that way.

[MJJean]

I can count on one hand the number of times my DH has done dishes in this house. We've lived here 12 years. Same with lawn work, minor repairs and improvements, car repair, kid care, pet care, etc. BUT he was working between 9 and 14 hours a day, 5-6 days a week and I was SAHM. He would generally help with a household repair if I insisted, but it might take him a day or two to get to it. He doesn't work as much, so he's been helping more although there are some things that he just doesn't do because he's worse than the kids at it.

 

Other than my DH, the men in my family and most of the guys we're friends with are pretty good about helping out with the business of running a household and child rearing. They just don't do quite as much as the women do.

 

A big part of why the guys in my family are generally pretty helpful is that when we're kids, the boys do chores, too. So, I think it has a lot to do with how a man was raised. Dishes, laundry, sweep/mop/vacuum, toilets, yard work...you name it, the boys take turns doing it just like the girls do in my family and we start young.

 

We all had basic chores like putting away things and wiping tables when we were in pre-school. We graduated to laundry, dishes, floors, and basic cooking by 6th grade. By Jr High, any one of us could take care of the housework and cook a meal for a day with no adult supervision.

 

As adults, we all do what needs to be done around the house because it's a habit from childhood. And we expect the same of our husbands and sons because that's what we saw growing up.

[GunslingerRoland]

There are always some lazy people of both sexes. But I think this is a lot less common than it used to be.

 

 

Out of the people I know, more of the men cook in the relationships than women now. And most of the dads I know are extremely active in their kids lives.

 

 

Now I'm not going to argue you that women do the majority of the housework, but I think 60-40 is probably a lot more common than 80-20.

[d0nnivain]

Maybe you & your friends just chose bad men. While I know a few lazy bums, I know waaaayyyy more genuinely good helpful guys.

 

 

To some extent we teach people how to treat us.

[BettyDraper]

Maybe you & your friends just chose bad men. While I know a few lazy bums, I know waaaayyyy more genuinely good helpful guys.

 

 

To some extent we teach people how to treat us.

 

My husband is not a bad man....he's quite the opposite.

 

I agree that I chose a bad man in the past. My friend's men are good in some ways yet also quite lazy and self centred. It has been proven that very little has changed in terms of division of labour in most families:

Women in the U.S. Still Do Way More Housework Than Men - Bloomberg Business

 

Teaching people how to treat us is very important. I think that too many women are people pleasers so they allow unfair treatment.

[Ms. Faust]

I think for the most part we have a traditional set up. My husband works 8-10 hour shifts, only to come home and work more from home. I only work on weekends.

 

That being said, he is very involved with our daughter, and when he comes home he is completely involved in her care. He bathes her, diapers, plays, feeds, holds, basically everything he can do for her to make up for the time he was at work. I think he does it in part because he wants me to rest, and in part because he enjoys it. Him being so hands on allows me to finish cleaning (I am very fastidious, so I tend to be anal when it comes to a clean home) or just to sit and read or post on my forums.

 

My only experience of lazy fathers and spouses on unequal footing has been on the internet. I really haven't been around many other fathers on a friend level. All of our mutual friends are childless (they are late 20s -early 30s, btw), and for most of them they are not having kids anytime soon.

The ones that are couples are still in the honeymoon phase (hubby and I have been together the longest of our friends). I've read some horror stories, though. I am very grateful for my man!! :love:

Edited January 11, 2016 by Ms. Faust

[dichotomy]

Funny -

 

I see it the opposite way in the last decade or two.

 

1) Men got pounded on (rightly so) in the media to be better husbands and fathers – more time with kids, wife, involvement in chores, accommodating, sensitive, yada yada. We got the message. Among my male friends and neighbors I see dads at all the school conferences and plays, leaving work early (or not staying late) to participate in family activities. I see caring husbands focusing on wives and family - cleaning, cooking, helping do their share.

 

2) During this last same decade or two I see women getting encouraged (because they had been held back) to act like men used to be – play the field (sleep around), pursue demanding hard driving careers, stop compromising with men and child activities, be tough and demanding, and independent of anyone.

 

I think this has created all new issues in marriage and long term relationships. I hope there is some return to balance on both sides, but yet I see middle aged men regretting “coming to the table” as requested while the women were encouraged to leave it more.

 

Then of course more and more young people simply seeing all this dysfunction (It did not work the old way or the new way) and staying away from marriage all together. – and focusing on themselves.

 

I don't know perhaps there are variations in this depending on where you live and your culture and age.

Edited January 11, 2016 by dichotomy

[TaraMaiden2]

I am not one of those angry man haters who believes that all men are pigs or any other nonsense like that. However, I have noticed a disturbing trend with men my whole life and I don't understand it.

 

Some men are very selfish and immature. Those types do not take care of their responsibilities as partners and/or fathers. They expect women to give them everything while they give nothing in return. Plenty of men do not help with housework and child rearing, yet they expect their wives to be ready to have sex with them every minute. ....I am not looking to offend men on LS; I know that there are good men in the world. I am married to one of them. .....

 

You talk as if this was a new phenomenon.

So I will quote something my mother told me.

And, as it turns out, after investigation, her GRANDMOTHER told her.

 

"It doesn't matter -

What job they have;

How much money they earn;

What car they drive;

What (designer) clothes they wear;

What house they live in:

 

They're 9 years old.

 

I love individual men.

I have some very good male friends and get on extremely well with my male colleagues.

Heck, I am married to a man.

So I do not discount the wonderful qualities the vast majority of men display.

BUT:

On the whole - I really don't like the actions of the male gender, when it comes to their overall attitudes to women, either as individuals or in society.

And some men here - definitely by no means all, nor the majority - are absolutely deplorable in their attitudes and dismissiveness of women and their opinions.

It's a trend that just won't lie down and die.

And it's high time it did.

[BettyDraper]

I think for the most part we have a traditional set up. My husband works 8-10 hour shifts, only to come home and work more from home. I only work on weekends.

 

That being said, he is very involved with our daughter, and when he comes home he is completely involved in her care. He bathes her, diapers, plays, feeds, holds, basically everything he can do for her to make up for the time he was at work. I think he does it in part because he wants me to rest, and in part because he enjoys it. Him being so hands on allows me to finish cleaning (I am very fastidious, so I tend to be anal when it comes to a clean home) or just to sit and read or post on my forums.

 

My only experience of lazy fathers and spouses on unequal footing has been on the internet. I really haven't been around many other fathers on a friend level. All of our mutual friends are childless (they are late 20s -early 30s, btw), and for most of them they are not having kids anytime soon.

The ones that are couples are still in the honeymoon phase (hubby and I have been together the longest of our friends). I've read some horror stories, though. I am very grateful for my man!! :love:

 

We have a traditional marriage as well. It works for us despite the backlash I have received from other women. I don't mind taking care of the household since I am not employed.

 

I'm very happy that your husband helps with your daughter and you are grateful for him. Good partners are so hard to find. How long have you been with your husband?

[lakerking]

OP : In a relationship, I think one spouse/partner needs to stand up and demand more of the other spouse/partner if they think they're not pulling their weight in the relationship. For example, I remember when we were first married I didn't do much of the housework either. My wife pretty much told me that she couldn't do all of this and that snapped in me that I better help her out. we're by no means a traditional family so I was sort of embarrassed I had her doing the 1950's housewife routine. I think some guys just don't notice these things unless they're pointed out.

 

As for men in general, my teenage daughter started dating and here is the advice I gave her - I don't care if it offends the men out there - they know it's true :

 

- 95% of men are pigs.

-They only care about sex.

-They are absolutely selfish and care about self gratification at the expense of others.

 

 

-5% of the remaining men are good respectable human beings. But in their teens and even into their mid 20s, men don't mature as fast as women. So don't be surprised if you find one of these five percenter's and he's not the perfect guy. These men may not fully mature until their late 20s or 30.

 

I think this is pretty correct in any generation. I don't buy the social media excuse of instant gratification as an excuse for men these days. When I was a youngster they use to say the same thing about our generation.

 

 

p.s. : btw i've been doing dishes, washing laundry, throwing out garbage, cooking dinner (well only on Tuesdays and Thursdays), and all the household chores for the last 17 years. But all that pales in comparison to a women giving birth. I still am amazed how women do that

[BettyDraper]

You talk as if this was a new phenomenon.

So I will quote something my mother told me.

And, as it turns out, after investigation, her GRANDMOTHER told her.

 

"It doesn't matter -

What job they have;

How much money they earn;

What car they drive;

What (designer) clothes they wear;

What house they live in:

 

They're 9 years old.

 

I love individual men.

I have some very good male friends and get on extremely well with my male colleagues.

Heck, I am married to a man.

So I do not discount the wonderful qualities the vast majority of men display.

BUT:

On the whole - I really don't like the actions of the male gender, when it comes to their overall attitudes to women, either as individuals or in society.

And some men here - definitely by no means all, nor the majority - are absolutely deplorable in their attitudes and dismissiveness of women and their opinions.

It's a trend that just won't lie down and die.

And it's high time it did.

 

I don't think this is new at all. I was surprised because I thought that society had changed so much in the last 50 years. Apparently it has not. My mother has told me that men are babies. My husband is probably the most mature and caring man I have ever known besides my father and my brother.

 

I concur with your opinion of men in terms of their treatment of women. There is a sense of entitlement that some men have which leads to their selfish and childish behavior.

[BettyDraper]

OP : In a relationship, I think one spouse/partner needs to stand up and demand more of the other spouse/partner if they think they're not pulling their weight in the relationship. For example, I remember when we were first married I didn't do much of the housework either. My wife pretty much told me that she couldn't do all of this and that snapped in me that I better help her out. we're by no means a traditional family so I was sort of embarrassed I had her doing the 1950's housewife routine. I think some guys just don't notice these things unless they're pointed out.

 

As for men in general, my teenage daughter started dating and here is the advice I gave her - I don't care if it offends the men out there - they know it's true :

 

- 95% of men are pigs.

-They only care about sex.

-They are absolutely selfish and care about self gratification at the expense of others.

 

 

-5% of the remaining men are good respectable human beings. But in their teens and even into their mid 20s, men don't mature as fast as women. So don't be surprised if you find one of these five percenter's and he's not the perfect guy. These men may not fully mature until their late 20s or 30.

 

I think this is pretty correct in any generation. I don't buy the social media excuse of instant gratification as an excuse for men these days. When I was a youngster they use to say the same thing about our generation.

 

 

p.s. : btw i've been doing dishes, washing laundry, throwing out garbage, cooking dinner (well only on Tuesdays and Thursdays), and all the household chores for the last 17 years. But all that pales in comparison to a women giving birth. I still am amazed how women do that

 

My parents gave me the same advice. While I won't say that all men are pigs, I do agree that men can be incredibly selfish and cold.

 

Why do you think men often need to be told to help out around the house and help with kids? Is it biological?

 

I've learned that some men never mature as well. I always preferred men who were older than I and I was very disappointment and aghast at some of the immaturity in men who were in their 30s and 40s.

[BettyDraper]

Funny -

 

I see it the opposite way in the last decade or two.

 

1) Men got pounded on (rightly so) in the media to be better husbands and fathers – more time with kids, wife, involvement in chores, accommodating, sensitive, yada yada. We got the message. Among my male friends and neighbors I see dads at all the school conferences and plays, leaving work early (or not staying late) to participate in family activities. I see caring husbands focusing on wives and family - cleaning, cooking, helping do their share.

 

2) During this last same decade or two I see women getting encouraged (because they had been held back) to act like men used to be – play the field (sleep around), pursue demanding hard driving careers, stop compromising with men and child activities, be tough and demanding, and independent of anyone.

 

I think this has created all new issues in marriage and long term relationships. I hope there is some return to balance on both sides, but yet I see middle aged men regretting “coming to the table” as requested while the women were encouraged to leave it more.

 

Then of course more and more young people simply seeing all this dysfunction (It did not work the old way or the new way) and staying away from marriage all together. – and focusing on themselves.

 

I don't know perhaps there are variations in this depending on where you live and your culture and age.

 

You've made some excellent points about the pendulum swinging in the other direction.

 

Maybe I am around a lot of traditional or dysfunctional couples.

[sambolini]

As for men in general, my teenage daughter started dating and here is the advice I gave her - I don't care if it offends the men out there - they know it's true :

 

- 95% of men are pigs.

-They only care about sex.

-They are absolutely selfish and care about self gratification at the expense of others.

 

So if I had a son, by this rationale it'd be perfectly acceptable for me to tell him:

 

- 95% of women are gold diggers

- They only care about money

- They are absolutely selfish and care about self gratification at the expense of your hard work

 

EDIT: I actually thought you were a woman. But the concept is still the same.

[BettyDraper]

So if I had a son, by this rationale it'd be perfectly acceptable for me to tell him:

 

- 95% of women are gold diggers

- They only care about money

- They are absolutely selfish and care about self gratification at the expense of your hard work

 

EDIT: I actually thought you were a woman. But the concept is still the same.

 

Parents pass on their beliefs to their children, even if those beliefs may be completely wrong.

 

I believe that most women want financially stable men.

In 2016, men are still judged on their resources and women are still judged on our appearance. That is why ugly old wealthy men often have gorgeous young wives.

 

I don't think most women are selfish because we have been conditioned to be defined by our relationships.

[sambolini]

My parents gave me the same advice. While I won't say that all men are pigs, I do agree that men can be incredibly selfish and cold.

 

This isn't limited to one gender. This is a human flaw.

 

Why do you think men often need to be told to help out around the house and help with kids? Is it biological?

 

Here's a male perspective. And mind you, I'm a 36 year old bachelor and I intend to be one for a long, long time. Probably the rest of my life. I don't need a woman to cook, clean, or do any domestic duty for me because I can do it all myself. I also prefer egalitarian relationships, where all duties are split equally and each person is responsible for their own income and finances. But, if I were to ever enter into a "traditional" marriage, then the following would be my expectations:

 

If he goes to work and provides the resources for the house that you and the children need for survival while you stay home, then he is fulfilling his part of the social contract. He is gathering the resources needed to sustain you and your children. He has assumed the provider role and is fulfilling his part of that agreement.

 

The flip side of that is that if you choose to stay home, then you've chosen that to be your job. I would expect the same level of productivity from a person who works at home (regardless of their job) as I do from a person who goes to work at a business. This means while I'm running meetings with upper management, she's doing the dishes; while I'm coding complex analytics reports, she's doing the laundry; while I'm building an intra-agency website, she's getting dinner ready. We are both doing what is necessary to ensure the best possible outcome for the household.

 

If you've chosen to be a stay at home parent as your profession, that's fine. But that means it's your profession. I did my duty by ensuring the entire family has food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare. The last thing I would want to hear as soon as I walk in the door after busting my ass all day is, "When are you going to do the dishes??" Especially if she's unshowered and still in the same pajamas she's already been wearing for the past two days. (I was married once; this actually happened).

 

You would find it utterly ludicrous if I came home and said, "When are you going to build those SQL reports for the Tax department??" And you would be correct when you say, "Because that's your job." But the flip side of that is that if you're the stay at home parent, then domestic duties are your job.

 

For the record, I totally understand that there are bad dads and husbands out there; men who work part-time and do absolutely nothing. But I've never fallen into that category; I've always had a full-time job and worked very hard to provide for my family when I was married. So as a man who took providing for his family very seriously and got burned for doing it, you can imagine why my standards for entering into that arrangement again would be significantly high.

 

I also completely agree that both parents need to be involved in their children's lives. I've seen both fathers and mothers become complacent with their children, and anyone shirking in that area deserves to be called out for it. A father still needs to interact and spend time with his children; they need him just as much as they need their mother.

 

I've learned that some men never mature as well. I always preferred men who were older than I and I was very disappointment and aghast at some of the immaturity in men who were in their 30s and 40s.

 

Define immaturity. I'm 36. I'll never marry again. I don't completely eschew relationships, but I also don't enter into them very often. I have a good job, make plenty of money, travel, have sexual encounters when it suits me, and when my daughter is at her mother's I spend my time doing recreational activities I enjoy.

 

I've been told I'm immature because of the life I live. But then again, I really enjoy bucking societal gender roles.

[sambolini]

Parents pass on their beliefs to their children, even if those beliefs may be completely wrong.

 

I believe that most women want financially stable men.

In 2016, men are still judged on their resources and women are still judged on our appearance. That is why ugly old wealthy men often have gorgeous young wives.

 

I don't think most women are selfish because we have been conditioned to be defined by our relationships.

 

That's fine if women want financially stable men. I'm successful, 100% financially stable, and my life is completely in order.

 

The flip side of that is what is she bringing to the table in return? She benefits from my financial stability. What benefits do I get from her? Will she:

 

1) Cook dinner?

2) Do dishes?

3) Do laundry?

 

Or am I expected to do all of that, too? If I am, then what's the point in me being in the relationship in the first place? I may as well be single, do all of that on my own, and keep all of my money for myself.

 

I have very little patience for whining.

[Mr. Lucky]

I also completely agree that both parents need to be involved in their children's lives. I've seen both fathers and mothers become complacent with their children, and anyone shirking in that area deserves to be called out for it. A father still needs to interact and spend time with his children; they need him just as much as they need their mother.

 

Certainly agree with this but also see it as a source of conflict in many "modern" marriages.

 

Perhaps bowing to peer pressure, many women today over-invest in their children and under-perform in their marriage. Between Mommy-and-me, Gymboree, play dates and a million other new age activities, a lot of women turn child-rearing into an activity so consuming it leaves little time for anything else even as the kids get older. Little energy is left for either the house or the husband, both suffer as a result.

 

Skewed priorities work both ways so communication, as always, is the key...

 

Mr. Lucky

[BettyDraper]

That's fine if women want financially stable men. I'm successful, 100% financially stable, and my life is completely in order.

 

The flip side of that is what is she bringing to the table in return? She benefits from my financial stability. What benefits do I get from her? Will she:

 

1) Cook dinner?

2) Do dishes?

3) Do laundry?

 

Or am I expected to do all of that, too? If I am, then what's the point in me being in the relationship in the first place? I may as well be single, do all of that on my own, and keep all of my money for myself.

 

I have very little patience for whining.

 

I agree with the points you have made. I've known some women who talk about only wanting men who have certain things but they also feel that they are above household chores. The women my husband dated before me expected to be treated like princesses without giving anything in return.

My husband thought that I was a breath of fresh air because I understood the need for reciprocity in a relationship.

[Lois_Griffin]

It has been proven that very little has changed in terms of division of labour in most families:

Women in the U.S. Still Do Way More Housework Than Men - Bloomberg Business

Of course it hasn't changed that much.

 

 

Except men also expect women to work full time jobs on top of it.

 

 

They love throwing that 'equality' argument around when it suits them - like when they're whining about who should pay for dinner. And then they suddenly forget all about that equality argument when they couple up and want to keep their lazy asses parked on the couch all the time while the women does most of the domestic work.

 

 

Classic.

 

 

I've always said women work MUCH harder than men. And I stand by it.

[Cymbeline]

Maybe 'twas ever thus!

 

A Slice Of Wedding Cake

 

Why have such scores of lovely, gifted girls

Married impossible men?

Simple self-sacrifice may be ruled out,

And missionary endeavour, nine times out of ten.

 

Repeat 'impossible men': not merely rustic,

Foul-tempered or depraved

(Dramatic foils chosen to show the world

How well women behave, and always have behaved).

 

Impossible men: idle, illiterate,

Self-pitying, dirty, sly,

For whose appearance even in City parks

Excuses must be made to casual passers-by.

 

Has God's supply of tolerable husbands

Fallen, in fact, so low?

Or do I always over-value woman

At the expense of man?

Do I?

It might be so.

 

by Robert Graves (1895 - 1985)

[GorillaTheater]

I've always said women work MUCH harder than men. And I stand by it.

 

 

This cheered me up a bit. Thank God for small favors.

[dichotomy]

I have daughters, but it would not have mattered what sex they were when I explained to them what I considered love and a loving relationship. From there I think they can know what to expect..... and what to give.

[dichotomy]

This board has any number of stories of nice loving giving supportive husbands and fathers - who were cheated on, used, lied to, or suffer in a low or no sex marriage. I am one of them.

 

While men have earned some of their old reputations as a poor spouse/parent.. a good portion of women are catching up fast..or we are just seeing it more out in the open.