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I've struggled to start this thread for a bit as I'm a little in conflict about it.

 

My partner is a lovely woman in every sense except she doesn't talk about anything intimate.

 

She says nothing about ...

 

  • her past (even childhood)
  • her past relationships
  • what she's frighted of
  • turn ons / offs
  • dreams (other than a business).
  • future plans wrt growing old together ...
  • doesn't say I love you unless it's a "me too thing" or its via text

Sometimes I feel a little lonely while she's sitting right beside me.

She's attentive, but it's more physical. The conversation is limited to surface talk.

 

It's kind of funny as that is what is drawing me a little to this forum.

 

 

I've spoke to her about it a few times and she mostly evades the question. In fact she gets a little uncomfortable. I understand that things are relative and perhaps I'm more open, but she says nothing.

 

 

My feeling is that she's got a pretty thick wall up and it's based on some trust issue.

 

 

 

Other than that, the relationship is pretty good.

 

 

 

I do know that I can't nag at her to open up, but rather be patient (which I suck at).

 

What I want to know is, does anyone have any experience with this?

Any words of wisdom?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Z

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I just made a similar post myself. I am having a similar problem. I can't help you at all, just wanted to comment that you are not alone.

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Thanks so much for answering. I had about given up.

 

Engaged, living together for 6 months, started dating 18 months ago, knew each other (but no personal relationship - office head nods only) for a couple years before that.

 

What I've considered / read ...

People who don't talk are scared to talk. This implies that it will somehow someday get used against them or maybe alter the way things are.

 

Intimacy issues on some level ...

Although we're quite intimate physically, that could be achieved as just being a "good wife standing beside her husband". This one bugs me. If it were me playing that role to attain ... say marriage, eventually I would jump out of my skin. It's not sustainable and must be a living hell. She has reiterated more than a couple times to me "I'll never cry for another man". And true facts, I've not seen a tear in 18 months. Not one.

 

Vulnerability ...

I've also read, you're not very vulnerable until you put some skin on the table. You have to share to make yourself vulnerable. When your partner can see that you're making yourself vulnerable for them, it really shows trust and commitment.

 

Emotional Availability ...

I don't think she's emotionally unavailable. That's where I started and no, the symptoms I read about those people are much more extreme.

 

Thing is, she looooooves listening to me speak of intimate or personal matters. It's just never reciprocated. "i.e. this is what we did as a family at XMas...", then wait for her to share ... nope!

 

Another thing I read is that people like this "avoiders" live in a box as a form of protection and the more you try to draw them out, the more they withdraw. Learning to communicate effectively with them is the key. Such as never ask direct questions. They may be harmless and normal to you but feel like an interrogation to the avoider.

 

I have some work to do on my own. I think fast, I talk fast, I conclude fast. Given we both really want this relationship/marriage to proceed, I'm very eager to fix things that I feel could improve our relationship. Inside, it's making me kind of needy (I do hide that completely btw, just showing state of mind). On the flip side, her, the avoider, is more driven than ever to maintain the status quo lest something goes wrong at the last minute.

 

Yes I've mentioned couples therapy but I don't think that will work. It keeps getting ... forgotten / buried.

 

Guess I'm looking for hope that a person with a wall up can slowly gain faith enough to let it crumble. Without the emotional vulnerability of allowing someone to know you, it's near impossible for me to internally relax with this partnership.

 

Z

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Never marry a person thinking you're going to change her (or him).

 

I'm with you -- I am an introvert, and I want to open up with my partner on a deeper level. She, on the other hand, might simply be a better match for a stoic, emotionally-simple/shallow guy.

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PurpleCardigan
Never marry a person thinking you're going to change her (or him).

 

I'm with you -- I am an introvert, and I want to open up with my partner on a deeper level. She, on the other hand, might simply be a better match for a stoic, emotionally-simple/shallow guy.

 

I echo this statement from Eggplant, including the introvert part.

 

If you can't get her to go to counseling about something that makes you feel insecure, I'd encourage you to take a long hard look at this relationship and make sure that you can live with her the way she is for the rest of your life, as she is not going to change.

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Sound advice, I agree. This lack of reciprocity is a genuine issue and you're right to be thinking about it now. Remember, these are the good days, maybe the best days. That's how relationships work and what honeymoon periods are about.

 

In years to come you could find the 'silence' you get from your attempts to communicate just too much to bear. And in the future the conversations could be a LOT more serious than 'when we were kids we did X - did you?'

 

I think you need to talk to her. Point out she often isn't very forthcoming, and - because you love her and find her interesting - you are sometimes disappointed she doesn't engage on some things more. Ask her whether she's holding back or whether it's just not get style to share. I think her reaction might tell you a fair bit.

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Thanks so much for answering. I had about given up.

 

Engaged, living together for 6 months, started dating 18 months ago, knew each other (but no personal relationship - office head nods only) for a couple years before that.

 

What I've considered / read ...

People who don't talk are scared to talk. This implies that it will somehow someday get used against them or maybe alter the way things are.

 

Intimacy issues on some level ...

Although we're quite intimate physically, that could be achieved as just being a "good wife standing beside her husband". This one bugs me. If it were me playing that role to attain ... say marriage, eventually I would jump out of my skin. It's not sustainable and must be a living hell. She has reiterated more than a couple times to me "I'll never cry for another man". And true facts, I've not seen a tear in 18 months. Not one.

 

Vulnerability ...

I've also read, you're not very vulnerable until you put some skin on the table. You have to share to make yourself vulnerable. When your partner can see that you're making yourself vulnerable for them, it really shows trust and commitment.

 

Emotional Availability ...

I don't think she's emotionally unavailable. That's where I started and no, the symptoms I read about those people are much more extreme.

 

Thing is, she looooooves listening to me speak of intimate or personal matters. It's just never reciprocated. "i.e. this is what we did as a family at XMas...", then wait for her to share ... nope!

 

Another thing I read is that people like this "avoiders" live in a box as a form of protection and the more you try to draw them out, the more they withdraw. Learning to communicate effectively with them is the key. Such as never ask direct questions. They may be harmless and normal to you but feel like an interrogation to the avoider.

 

I have some work to do on my own. I think fast, I talk fast, I conclude fast. Given we both really want this relationship/marriage to proceed, I'm very eager to fix things that I feel could improve our relationship. Inside, it's making me kind of needy (I do hide that completely btw, just showing state of mind). On the flip side, her, the avoider, is more driven than ever to maintain the status quo lest something goes wrong at the last minute.

 

Yes I've mentioned couples therapy but I don't think that will work. It keeps getting ... forgotten / buried.

 

Guess I'm looking for hope that a person with a wall up can slowly gain faith enough to let it crumble. Without the emotional vulnerability of allowing someone to know you, it's near impossible for me to internally relax with this partnership.

 

Z

 

I caution you about marrying her.

 

Yes, she is this way for a reason - and since she's unwilling to tell you - I can understand why you feel alone while with her. It's a long life with someone who's void of the emotional connection.

 

Emotional and mental connections are an integral part of the physical connection.

 

Have you met her family? If not, why not?

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my only input would be that I'm similar in relationships. very hard to know because everything is kept secret/guarded. and I had a happy childhood, no trust issues, no past hurts (other than your normal heartbreaks). some people are just not emotionally expressive. it doesn't mean we love less or have 'lesser' feelings, in fact the feelings are likely even more pronounced in private because with a partner you can never fully 'let go.' it has a lot to do with losing control and not wanting to give over that control to someone else. it won't change though - this is a personality trait, from early on, it'll be an uphill battle, and someone this guarded will never feel comfy expressing emotions the way you do, or want them to. and the more it's forced the less likely it is to happen. not everything is a result of trauma and etc. - sometimes people are that way just because they are, and that's ok. but it's probably not a good match for you for marriage or children, because she won't be on the same page as you emotionally and won't fulfill the needs you have, and you should question how she would be with kids, and as a mother. a better match for you is someone who wants to bond emotionally, and a better match for her would be someone who can 'read' her emotions without her having to verbalize them.

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Never marry a person thinking you're going to change her (or him).

 

I'm with you -- I am an introvert, and I want to open up with my partner on a deeper level. She, on the other hand, might simply be a better match for a stoic, emotionally-simple/shallow guy.

I worried about his as well. Thing is, is she's quite chatty (mostly in her native tongue which I don't speak) and it sounds more personal / connected. I think the tendency to keep the "personal" out of the conversation is just with me (or previous partners). Actually, my son says she's more chatty with him when I'm not around.

That's why I'm still here. If my speculation is correct, she will slowly trust me and that I'm not going to bolt at the last minute. From the tidbits of information I have gathered over the last 18 months, any relationship she had ended just before cohabitation. Seems she's had 3 relationships like this and has wasted years.

 

Z

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Sound advice, I agree. This lack of reciprocity is a genuine issue and you're right to be thinking about it now. Remember, these are the good days, maybe the best days. That's how relationships work and what honeymoon periods are about.

 

In years to come you could find the 'silence' you get from your attempts to communicate just too much to bear. And in the future the conversations could be a LOT more serious than 'when we were kids we did X - did you?'

Yes, I've thought of those "serious" conversations as well. We have in the past had an issue and she shut down rather than talk about it. I was never able to see it for what it is as she gave me no information. Months later, something triggered that old argument and I was on the verge of giving up on her and she gave me enough information for me to be able to paint a picture other than the worse. It still bugs me!

 

Z

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I caution you about marrying her.

 

Yes, she is this way for a reason - and since she's unwilling to tell you - I can understand why you feel alone while with her. It's a long life with someone who's void of the emotional connection.

 

Emotional and mental connections are an integral part of the physical connection.

 

Have you met her family? If not, why not?

I have met her family. They ... adore me, it was clear.

That is another thing that I've noticed, when family / friends tell her she's lucky, she is on cloud nine for a spell. And yes, I know what that implies...

 

Regarding the long life, I'm going with the hope that it is fear of the direction of us changing and she's always been safe when she shuts down. This will ebb away when we're married and she gets that feeling of expectation that I'll be there. There is no question, this woman wants this marriage.

 

Z

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my only input would be that I'm similar in relationships. very hard to know because everything is kept secret/guarded. and I had a happy childhood, no trust issues, no past hurts (other than your normal heartbreaks). some people are just not emotionally expressive. it doesn't mean we love less or have 'lesser' feelings, in fact the feelings are likely even more pronounced in private because with a partner you can never fully 'let go.' it has a lot to do with losing control and not wanting to give over that control to someone else. it won't change though - this is a personality trait, from early on, it'll be an uphill battle, and someone this guarded will never feel comfy expressing emotions the way you do, or want them to.

^^^ This actually gave me some relief. I'm not some vampiric needoid that wants to have a constant flow of the emo-goo. I would get enough from seeing her happy I think. My ego is just fine and doesn't need constant validation. I'm just hoping that might someday chat on a slightly deeper level.

 

but it's probably not a good match for you for marriage or children, because she won't be on the same page as you emotionally and won't fulfill the needs you have, and you should question how she would be with kids, and as a mother.

I know what you're saying. And that part is not ideal for me. The problem is, is that many parts are ideal for me. Dating and getting into a relationship with someone is pretty easy for me. Finding one that has enough similar interests, future directions and moral values is difficult.

Regarding children, oh god no! I'm 51 and she's 46. Our kids from previous marriages are grown and gone!

 

a better match for you is someone who wants to bond emotionally, and a better match for her would be someone who can 'read' her emotions without her having to verbalize them.

Agreed on first point, but as I mentioned above ... ideal is not always possible. Regarding the 'read'ing, I read her very well. I'd just like her to allow me to get to know her better and maybe deepen the conversations (they don't have to be mush, just ... more).

 

She does love to listen to me talk intimately, soaks it right up. So I know she likes it, but reciprocating is very difficult. She is holding back.

 

Z

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^^^ This actually gave me some relief. I'm not some vampiric needoid that wants to have a constant flow of the emo-goo. I would get enough from seeing her happy I think. My ego is just fine and doesn't need constant validation. I'm just hoping that might someday chat on a slightly deeper level.

 

 

I know what you're saying. And that part is not ideal for me. The problem is, is that many parts are ideal for me. Dating and getting into a relationship with someone is pretty easy for me. Finding one that has enough similar interests, future directions and moral values is difficult.

Regarding children, oh god no! I'm 51 and she's 46. Our kids from previous marriages are grown and gone!

 

 

Agreed on first point, but as I mentioned above ... ideal is not always possible. Regarding the 'read'ing, I read her very well. I'd just like her to allow me to get to know her better and maybe deepen the conversations (they don't have to be mush, just ... more).

 

She does love to listen to me talk intimately, soaks it right up. So I know she likes it, but reciprocating is very difficult. She is holding back.

 

Z

 

 

 

what about using a tool to help her open up, like a book/newspaper, etc. something nonthreatening. so tomorrow morning over coffee and donuts you're reading the Sunday paper and ask her what's up with the Ukraine or something. perhaps use the news or things of that nature to bring conversations to another level. whenever you're watching tv together make comments that open the door for better conversations. or find the thing she likes most and chat about that with her. is she smart? maybe she holds back because she's been insulted before and told she isn't and that her opinions don't matter? could be that.

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what about using a tool to help her open up, like a book/newspaper, etc. something nonthreatening. so tomorrow morning over coffee and donuts you're reading the Sunday paper and ask her what's up with the Ukraine or something. perhaps use the news or things of that nature to bring conversations to another level. whenever you're watching tv together make comments that open the door for better conversations. or find the thing she likes most and chat about that with her. is she smart? maybe she holds back because she's been insulted before and told she isn't and that her opinions don't matter? could be that.

 

So far, I was just thinking about being non intrusive and eventually it will turn around. But I think you've got a good idea. Draw her into conversations where she would have an opinion. When she hears responses reflecting my interest rather than disagreement and/or ridicule, she would start to feel ... safe to give an opinion.

 

I do think that her ex was a condescending know-it-all wanker who would yell at stupid stuff (she's let the odd thing slip over the last year).

Is she smart? I think so, but I would say she thinks slowly and not usually very deep (but ... how would I really know ;) ).

 

I will assure you this ... I am very gentle with this lady. I have never nor would make her feel small, stupid, flat out wrong or any other type of condescension. I want a partner, not a lap dog.

 

I will say I have noticed that her confidence is increasing since we met.

 

I will try what you suggest.

I'll also continue to work on me too. I'm a little neurotic (clearly I started this thread). I have to make sure I give her plenty of space when I sense it's ... quiet time.

 

BTW, away from internet for a week starting tomorrow, not abandoning the thread.

 

Z

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If intimate conversations were that important to you, how did you ever get past the dating phase with this woman? It is important to me, but I would never, ever be in a R with someone whom I couldn't talk to about anything other than surface stuff.

 

I'm not asking this to harp on you, I'm asking this to prompt introspection about what attracted you to being in a R and marrying her to begin with. Perhaps it wasn't all that important to you back then? What changed, then?

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If intimate conversations were that important to you, how did you ever get past the dating phase with this woman? It is important to me, but I would never, ever be in a R with someone whom I couldn't talk to about anything other than surface stuff.

 

I'm not asking this to harp on you, I'm asking this to prompt introspection about what attracted you to being in a R and marrying her to begin with. Perhaps it wasn't all that important to you back then? What changed, then?

Gosh, don't worry about harping on me, I'm on this site because I'm trying to be my best and I am not so arrogant to assume my perceptions are accurate. I am admittedly a little neurotic and leery of relationships.

 

To answer your questions as honestly as I can ...

It was / is very physical relationship. I'm not talking just sex although that had a lot to do with it, but the contact. There was also thoughtfulness. I'm not used to a woman doing things for me. It was nice to get back for a change.

 

I'm slow to trust due to some personal experiences (betrayed spouse of 14 years) and some other goodies. It was quite difficult for me to learn to trust her, but I pressed on hoping that she would eventually open up (yep, I know, I know, but I guess I just really wanted it).

 

The last thing I guess, is that I'd had become quite jaded on the dating scene. I was fine with meeting people, but I found it a tad flaky for my taste. Perhaps it was just bad luck and poor screening. It seemed that so many were not ready for a relationship. But then again ... maybe I wasn't either.

 

So, it's not terrible talking with GF, it would just be ... nicer if she could talk with a little more skin on the table.

 

That answer your question?

 

Z

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I see some similarities in your relationship and mine. Going on 2.5 yrs with my bf, living together a year. My bf is emotionally reserved by nature and I came in with severe trust issues, some of them since childhood.

 

If your gf is like me, emotionally complex/rich but scared to open up, it will take years or some emotionally cathartic event for her to get to the level of intimacy you want to see. She has to see a consistent, unwavering pattern of patience, acceptance, and respect from you during that time. The language difference is a barrier even if she is bilingual. Would you be willing to learn her native tongue? She may be more comfortable speaking that way and that way can devote more energy to be being emotionally open in conversation.

 

If your gf is more like my bf....she's just not emotionally responsive/aware the way you are. This was hard for me to grasp, but some people's emotional attachments are very limited and may come across as superficial to more emotionally intuitive folks. It's not that they're holding back, but what they have to give in that department is not as rich as what you're expecting.

 

The situation seems more like the former since you've observed she's close with others. I'd recommend being patient, and exploring ways she can express herself emotionally that you can understand besides verbally -writing, artwork, music - perhaps she can find art that expresses what she wants to say but can't/won't just yet? Or make art of her own. Also learning some of her language again may help. Are there discrepancies between her language and English, maybe words in one language that there's no word for in the other? That could create a communication gap too. Just a troubleshooting area to consider.

 

Hope you make some progress here.

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my ex g/f was this way to a degree. it was weird because she was so friendly with me and other around her...very warm and seemingly open. however, when it came to sharing with me about her day or talking about the future, or if I brought a problem to her she was very quiet. She did not share with me much of what was going on in her world. One day she called me, after dating 14 months and said, "guess what I did today?" hummmm, what baby. "I resigned from my job and accepted a new offer". I had no idea she was entertaining a new offer.

 

my ex was for sure an avoider in this way and the thought of living together or M was not going to happen.

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still_an_Angel

i've got so many questions for you as reading this thread has given me a picture of the situation but a bit unclear on some things. I have gathered that the lady is a foreigner in your land and has been married before (possibly with a guy the same culture/race like you) and has had some 'difficulty' with her past relationship. Being married to a foreigner myself, i'm thinking:

 

1. is language a difficulty? you mentioned she's more chatty in her native tongue, maybe she has difficulty expressing deeper emotions? how old is your son? does she express her personal thoughts/opinions to him? Have you spoken to her friends and maybe casually inquire through them what she thinks of issues, current events? Is she guarded only with you or everybody else. Does she talk to her friends about her past, childhood, thoughts, etc?

 

2. why does her family say she is very lucky to have you? Please don't take this question the wrong way, i'm thinking that she guards her past and thoughts around you because she's scared that you will bolt once you know about her past which might not sit well with you? You said that she wants this relationship/marriage to push through so maybe she does not want you to find out these things that she guards in case you change your mind?

 

3. maybe find out through her friends if her past hubby 'conditioned' her to be unexpressive around him thus she has perfected this trait with him and on to you now, her current relationship. (I come back to thinking her prev hubby is also of a different culture than hers) and she believes this is how its supposed to be)

 

sorry if i haven't helped with this reply... i just thought i'd make sure i fully understand before i make suggestions or advice. Hope you see my post soon.

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Marriage is a big thing. You should see if she opens up to you more during the dating stage. You can't expect that she will just change in marriage.

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Then why marry her? Why not just date?

 

I suppose there are a few reasons ...

Preferred life style, maybe a little codependent.

 

Also, I've dated a ton since my divorce (2009) and this woman wants the same things as me more than any other I've met. Also, she doesn't appear to be so ... nervous as many I've dated.

 

Z

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1. is language a difficulty? you mentioned she's more chatty in her native tongue, maybe she has difficulty expressing deeper emotions?

It does seem that way. I have considered this. I'm thinking it is something a tad deeper. Or ... she's not very deep at all (emotionally anyway).

 

how old is your son? does she express her personal thoughts/opinions to him?

Uggh, 16 going on 30 :confused: and no, he has noticed the same thing as I. There is no ... feeling in anything she talks about. It all seems to be about the surface stuff.

 

Have you spoken to her friends and maybe casually inquire through them what she thinks of issues, current events? Is she guarded only with you or everybody else. Does she talk to her friends about her past, childhood, thoughts, etc?

Not really, that would be crossing a line I think. I did however have a chat with a husband of one of her friends. He thinks it's cultural as his wife was the same and it took a significant event for his wife to finally drop her guard and open up (she was scared of losing him).

 

2. why does her family say she is very lucky to have you?

Because I'm the ****! ... seriously, I suppose because I'm an established man who's healthy, in shape, has a plan and is aging quite slowly. Mostly, I think they want to see her happy.

 

i'm thinking that she guards her past and thoughts around you because she's scared that you will bolt once you know about her past which might not sit well with you? You said that she wants this relationship/marriage to push through so maybe she does not want you to find out these things that she guards in case you change your mind?
I've thought about this too. However, she's a nice lady. I could think that she worries that if I found out she was treated poorly and cast aside, she would worry that I might lose respect for her. I'm completely speculating however. I just don't know.

 

3. maybe find out through her friends if her past hubby 'conditioned' her to be unexpressive around him thus she has perfected this trait with him and on to you now, her current relationship. (I come back to thinking her prev hubby is also of a different culture than hers) and she believes this is how its supposed to be)

The past hubby sounds like a bit of a jerk. He was her culture. I think he would make her feel stupid if she had an opinion unlike hers. I get the feeling she ... married her father initially (and all that that implies). I don't judge, we all have problems. My past was rather embarrassing, but ... I believe a past should be celebrated, not judged for it makes us who we are.

 

sorry if i haven't helped with this reply... i just thought i'd make sure i fully understand before i make suggestions or advice. Hope you see my post soon.

Don't worry, you've asked pertinent information and will likely have additional views based on my responses. In the worse case scenario, I got to have a somewhat intimate conversation :)

 

Z

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I see some similarities in your relationship and mine. Going on 2.5 yrs with my bf, living together a year. My bf is emotionally reserved by nature and I came in with severe trust issues, some of them since childhood.

 

If your gf is like me, emotionally complex/rich but scared to open up, it will take years or some emotionally cathartic event for her to get to the level of intimacy you want to see. She has to see a consistent, unwavering pattern of patience, acceptance, and respect from you during that time. The language difference is a barrier even if she is bilingual. Would you be willing to learn her native tongue? She may be more comfortable speaking that way and that way can devote more energy to be being emotionally open in conversation.

 

If your gf is more like my bf....she's just not emotionally responsive/aware the way you are. This was hard for me to grasp, but some people's emotional attachments are very limited and may come across as superficial to more emotionally intuitive folks. It's not that they're holding back, but what they have to give in that department is not as rich as what you're expecting.

 

The situation seems more like the former since you've observed she's close with others. I'd recommend being patient, and exploring ways she can express herself emotionally that you can understand besides verbally -writing, artwork, music - perhaps she can find art that expresses what she wants to say but can't/won't just yet? Or make art of her own. Also learning some of her language again may help. Are there discrepancies between her language and English, maybe words in one language that there's no word for in the other? That could create a communication gap too. Just a troubleshooting area to consider.

 

Hope you make some progress here.

Thank you, this was a good post. I am trying to be patient, but as I mentioned before ... I'm a bit of a spaz :s

 

I have considered that she just might not have the emotional ... way of thinking that I do. I'm trying to learn her language, but man ... I'm not a language person, it will take forever.

 

I'm going to answer this post again when I'm not so tired.

 

Z

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