Prenuptial agreements. Would love to hear opposing sides

[st28fl]

Hello people!

 

Before giving opinions about general pre-nupital agreements, I'd like everyone here to keep my specific situation in mind.

 

I am a 28 year old small business owner. I have a small company (small per Gov standards because number of employees) in the transportation industry that does 7.5 million (give or take right now) per year in sales and is still growing by the year. I officially started this business when I was 19, and was unofficially doing this since I was 16. There is give/take 1.3 million per year not including my salary & taxes, and I claim a lot, but never all of it. I always re-invest (back in the company and in commercial property to lease out).

 

I've never bothered to value my company because of the many variables, and I don't plan on selling anytime soon, but I know it's significant.

 

 

I'm a very simple guy aside from being an avid auto enthusiast. The reason I started the business in the first place was to make extra money to support my hobby, and of course I kept going and going with the business. My daily driver is a Honda Accord. My employees have never seen any of my toys. Brand names, jewelry, showing off, etc don't mean much to me, and probably never will. My goal has always been to have the time to enjoy life as my own boss.

 

Another example of me in a nutshell: I would give up the entire business if I had unlimited time, and just *enough* money to live, travel when I want to, enjoy life, and help others reach their dreams. Of course it isn't free and I have to work to get there. Reason why I started my business.

_________________________________________

End the boring life story

 

**if** I get a prenuptial agreement, this is how would be worded in a nutshell:

 

-If my business fails, and she prospers, I get nothing.

 

-If business is great, and continues to grow, all of my shares, business assets, and new business assets purchased specifically from business profits (income commercial property in another business I own), will be protected, and she gets 100% of personal assets, and will at least be entitled to a paid off house and car, or an investment property so she won't have to work a regular job.

 

If she helps in the business, she would be entitled to a percentage, but 50% seems outlandish when I put in 10+ years of sacrifice to get it up and running, which is the most difficult part. Sacrifice in my eyes is priceless.

 

 

I strongly value marriage, and I believe in love, but I'm also realistic (in more than just financial reasons). The people I observe who love without thinking, go through relationships and marriages like socks. It's just a joke to say the least. I never really thought about it much until I started dating again, and realized I have a significant amount at stake to be playing around and not being serious about relationships.

 

I have seen friends change...really change. I've seen people divorce over selfish reasons. I know it sounds unromantic and cold, but my parents and all of my brothers and sisters who got married, got divorced. I want to get married, stay married, and even fight to stay together when times are rough, but I can't control if she changes, cheats, or wants out. I even believe on working it out if the other cheats, but if it's a reoccurring problem, I would want out.

 

 

 

 

 

I am looking to hear all sides to a situation like this. I want to know what and why. Especially from women.

 

For those who are for a prenuptial agreement, how would you approach someone with this?

 

Thanks!

Edited August 31, 2013 by st28fl

[oldshirt]

My opinion is you need to discuss this stuff with a solid family law attorney who has special skill and understanding of prenups.

 

Each state's marriage and divorce laws are a little different and each state and even each court views prenups a little different.

 

Some prenups are fairly solid and some aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

 

Sometimes the more you learn about it and know how things work, the less you fear it and the more you are able to protect yourself against it or are at least able to mitigate some of the damages if it does occur.

 

Educate yourself on the marriage and divorce laws and the role of prenups in your area and that way you can make a more informed decision on what will protect you best for your specific situation rather than strangers on the internet giving you a thumbs up or a thumbs down on what their opinion of prenups is.

[Woggle]

With the state of marriage in this day and age you have to be a fool not to get one.

[darkmoon]

if she gets pregnant, if you both have a kid/s, then she might want protection against poverty as a single mother

 

I have read an article by a solicitor about pre-nups as feeling like being divorced, nasty hypotheses come to the surface

 

too, the most loving of people can be very mean once love has faded so pre-nups are about giving ziltch, the ziltch is written in legal terminology requiring solicitors to understand it

 

the article was a huge warning

[Keenly]

You did it right man. Not only that you even made it so she STILL comes out ahead in a divorce, she just can't clean you out.

 

 

You'd be crazy not to have her sign it, as you invested your life into this company, and she would be crazy not to sign it.

 

 

My opinion on prenups (depending on the contents of said prenup) is that they are a smart idea to anyone marrying some one without assets. I'd sign my future wife's pre nup if she asked me to.

 

The purpose of the prenup is to protect what's truly yours in the event of a total catastrophic failure.

 

Any overly emotional response or extreme defensive anger reaction to being asked to sign a prenup is usually a huge red flag, showing you that he or she is less likely to be marrying youfor love, and you as a person, and is more than likely marrying the wealth, assets, and lifestyle. When they get tired of you as a person, they feel like they are entitled to half of what you created ten years before you even met her, so to say that she would be entitled to half if that is ludicrous.

 

 

Its the most logical and rational thing that could be done. Too bad emotion trumps reason these days.

[aliveagain]

When I was a poor starving artist living above a Chinese restaurant I would never have considered a postnuptial agreement because I had very little. Now that I am worth a lot of money and knowing that so many women in my life have been cheaters, I will protect what I have for my two children. You can agree on terms in the agreement. An example, for every year your together she gets $200,000.00 if you divorce, or the amount can escalate every year until you reach an amount or percentage. I am starting a family trust for my children so when they marry the family trust will supply the mortgage on their home, they pay a reasonable monthly payment to the trust, my daughter and her husband live there at a reduced monthly fee and if they divorce the mortgage is still owned by the trust, they get to keep the equity above the original purchase price which they split as in any divorce settlement. The difference is my daughters inheritance is still safe because the mortgage is still in the family trust, it doesn't get split in the divorce. So it depends where you are in life, if your just starting off with very little to your name and you build it together you both should share it 50/50. If your successful with a lot of assets, protect it.

[2sure]

You can't speculate on the terms without consulting a divorce attorney. A pre nup can't eliminate the laws of the state or enforce that someone get less than the state usually mandates. Property and assets gained or earned during the marriage being the most commonly disputed . Many people have found their pre nup to be unenforcable.

[oldshirt]

You can't speculate on the terms without consulting a divorce attorney. A pre nup can't eliminate the laws of the state or enforce that someone get less than the state usually mandates. Property and assets gained or earned during the marriage being the most commonly disputed . Many people have found their pre nup to be unenforcable.

 

 

Exactly. Even if someone signs a prenup willingly, it can't preempt the laws of the land. In other words someone can't do something that goes against the states divorce laws and practices even if they agree to it before the marriage. (it's kind of like employers are required to pay minimum wage, overtime pay and follow all the labor laws, even if an employee is an illegal and agrees to work 60 hours a week for less than minimum)

 

Another thing that gets a lot prenups thrown out is people cry duress any time their spouse tries to invoke the terms of the prenup.

 

All it takes is a grieving spouse to stand up and cry in court about how much they loved the other party but that the other person wouldn't marry them unless they signed the prenup and therefor they only signed it under duress of not marrying them in the first place.

 

Prenups definitely have their place, and people coming into the marriage with things like property/real estate, private businesses, trust funds, large amounts of savings and retirement plans etc etc are when prenups become legitimate.

 

But each case is unique onto itself and each state and sometimes even county is different in how they handle and enforce prenups so you have to consult a competent attorney that is knowledgable on prenups in your area.

[CarrieT]

I recently posted about pre-nups in another thread, but here is my take...

 

I am a woman who is approaching her 50th year. I haven't been married in 25 years and just recently got engaged.

 

I am an artist. A professional one at that (my work is in galleries on three continents). I'm also a published writer. But I don't make a ton of money at my creative endeavors. I have made a lot of money in the past and during that time in my life, I bought a lot of very expensive art and built a fairly substantial wine cellar. I suppose I could sell all of it and buy a house if I wanted, but I prefer having "the stuff" over a mortgage.

 

I am currently engaged to an eye surgeon (i.e., he makes decent money). He was engaged to a woman who got pregnant. When he brought up a pre-nup to her, she said it would never hold up in court because the pregnancy would make it seem like coercion. His mistake that he didn't verify what she said. They got married and had two other children.

 

Their divorce cost him MILLIONS because he did not protect himself with a pre-nup. She went after his private medical practice (like your business). When he proposed to me, *I* am the one who suggested a pre-nup, to assure him that I was not a gold-digger who would go after him the way his ex did. My pre-nup has been written to take take of me in the case of divorce. I didn't ask for that and I was very surprised when my fiance wrote that in as a clause. He didn't have to.

 

I saw a pre-nup attorney last week and I will offer her analogy. "Of course right now, you two are in the throws of the romance where the concept of divorce is inconceivable. But you have to look at this document as you would earthquake insurance: You hope and pray that the catastrophe never befalls you, but if it does, you want to be taken care of." Now living in California, I can assure you than many people don't bother with earthquake insurance, but having lived through several (seriously - I was made homeless by the Northridge earthquake and didn't have insurance), that sound advice made sense to me.

 

My pre-nup is an offering to my fiance that I will not sue him for the millions that his Ex did (and got). But it also protects me and my personal holdings. Our pre-nup is almost 20 pages long.

 

Whatever you do -- if/when you decide to get married -- do NOT write your own pre-nup. See a lawyer. Have your fiance see a lawyer. Don't just write one and offer it up without negotiation.

 

It sounds like you are a savvy business person and it would be foolish of you to enter into a relationship that involves finances without protecting yourself.

[oldshirt]

 

I am currently engaged to an eye surgeon (i.e., he makes decent money). He was engaged to a woman who got pregnant. When he brought up a pre-nup to her, she said it would never hold up in court because the pregnancy would make it seem like coercion. His mistake that he didn't verify what she said. They got married and had two other children.

 

 

Another good reason for seeing an attorney that knows how the system works.

 

Prenups can and do get thrown out due to duress but each situation and scenario are different.

 

You don't mention your fiancés specific circumstances but In the cases of physicians, attorneys etc things can be a bit different. Some courts have recognized the medical or law license as community property of the marriage in cases where the physician/lawyer etc were supported by the spouse for years and years while they were in school and then divorced once they were practicing and actually bringing an income after a decade of being supported by the spouse.

 

In some cases the license and it's subsequent income potential is seen as marital property whether someone gets a prenup in during their undergrad or not.

 

Your average Joe Citizen (or Joe posted on an internet forum) is not going to know all the particulars of any given situation or not. Or in Carrie T's fiancés case, his wife to be was probably full of baloney in her legal advise (to her benefit of course)

 

Bottom line everyone is telling you, see an attorney and get some actual advise that pertains to your specific situation.

[st28fl]

Thanks to all who have shared their views on a pre-nup. I highly value all responses both agreeing and opposing. I'm probably more biased towards the women's responses, but all views are extremely valued.

 

If I do decide to do something like that, it will be drafted by a lawyer without a doubt. What I really wanted to know is what people felt about the morals of pulling one of these, especially when there are legitimate assets at stake.

[st28fl]

You shouldn't even bother getting married.

 

It's no longer necessary.

 

There isn't any real stigma associated with having children out of wedlock, although I'd be very careful before having children with this woman.

 

The mere fact that you are contemplating a pre nup with her means you don't really trust her--not that there's ANY woman you could really put full trust in.

 

Certainly if you get married there should be a pre nup and certainly you should have a professional appraiser evaluate the worth of your business and assets before the marriage. The prenup at a minimum should state that she gets nothing of your business or net worth accumulated prior to the marriage but the only way to establish that is to have your assets professionally appraised.

 

 

 

 

It's not "you" that you need to worry about. It's "her."

 

Thank you for sharing your view. I love to hear opposing views as well, but you missed a very important part. There is no "her" in the picture.

 

I just started dating, and I haven't even thought about this until I got back in to the dating world.

 

I have been dating women from 23-30, and the maturity rate of the younger ones (and some of the 30 somethings!) was a bit of a wake up call, and the reason I started to think of a pre-nup in the first place. Some women I've dated are in intelligent and interesting, and others have been along the lines of "she'll make a great first ex-wife for somebody someday".

[oldshirt]

What I really wanted to know is what people felt about the morals of pulling one of these, especially when there are legitimate assets at stake.

 

First off, you need to realize that at it's core marriage is a legal and financial arraignment and legal contract. Our current society has made it into something that people perceive as romantic and personal but it's roots and original intents were strictly financial and legal right from the get go.

 

It's not a moral issue at all and morality does not play into this unless it is being used for some kind of fraud or manipulation or something in the first place. It is simply a legal document pertaining to legal and financial stipulations of a fundamentally legal and financial contract (marriage).

[crederer]

I know a guy that had a business that generated about the same in revenues as you. Probably a little more but he'd be doing it for about 20 years, had it going before he even met his wife. She didn't really work there, not often anyways, but was on the payroll as a full timer getting way over paid for her "position" as a secretary.

 

Anyways, they got divorced and she got 50% of the company, during the recession. After he paid her out, as well as some other factors (i.e economy) he had to sell the business. About 10 people were out of work because this woman wanted everything she could get her greedy fingers on.

 

I'd do what you can to protect your business. Obviously alimony and personal bank stuff she should be entitled to some but I don't think wives should be entitled to any of the business that they had no role in establishing.

[Silly_Girl]

I just got married. We have a pre-nup and wills to reflect it. I worked very hard through my son's childhood and managed to end to with equity to the value of about £120k. That's his, in my eyes, if anything happens to me. It's not a fortune, but it's worth protecting.

 

My son and I jointly made sacrifices in order for me to work the hours and build the career and I am certain it's his money.

 

Right now it's in our house we bought this year, so our pre-nup allows for him to be repaid within X years of my death (my H would have to sell the house) or when any subsequent children are X years old so they too get the benefit of the family home.

 

Anything from when we got together is fair game should we split up. I earn double what my H earns and am not interested in protecting any income or money we may amass while together. I just want my assets at the point we started living together to be ring-fenced for my son should something happen to me or we split up.

 

The pre-nup part was easy, the wording for the will was a bit more complex. The pre-nup is no guarantee, a court could easily depart from it, but we've provided a lot of background information showing the origination of funds etc to assist with the translation of the document should it ever come to that. I don't think it would, my husband absolutely does not seem like that sort of guy (nor was my first husband) but better safe than sorry.

[todreaminblue]

I understand why guys want pre nups especially business men.......I would not want what they have i would take with me what i came with........so would i sign a pre nup yes..and as i said i would take what i came with...if i split from soemone the only thing i do believe in...is that the children that are involved ...are supported not only financially but emotionally as well......i dotn think it would be right to take something that was already there before i was....that includes assets or financial gain from marrying someone....and i know people are gonna go yeah yeah crap...thats how i feel .......

 

 

 

i will make my own money and it wont be from the sweat or off the back of someone else......so yes i wouldnt have a problem signing a pre nup but.......i would question trust......it would make me feel a little funny considering .....i wouldnt want anything from them if a break up occurred............they should know me well enough to know i am not a threat........i do understand why people worry though....so yeah i guess i do understand the trust thing..sorta sucks you cant trust when you marry that is the person you are supposed to trust the most........what a way to live huh......so protection with pre nups seems almost second nature now to most who have a bit of a nest egg.....

 

 

if a woman loved a guy....i guess she would sign it regardless of how she felt about it....it wouldnt matter would it?..deb

[quankanne]

while I understand that this is not a fiscally smart move because I leave myself vulnerable, not to mention just plain naive, my reason for not wanting one is that why on earth would I want to go into a committed relationship with divorce as an option?

 

Call me an idealist, but there's no call for marriage if you're already planning for its failure.

[Silly_Girl]

while I understand that this is not a fiscally smart move because I leave myself vulnerable, not to mention just plain naive, my reason for not wanting one is that why on earth would I want to go into a committed relationship with divorce as an option?

 

Call me an idealist, but there's no call for marriage if you're already planning for its failure.

 

You're an idealist.

[oldshirt]

while I understand that this is not a fiscally smart move because I leave myself vulnerable, not to mention just plain naive, my reason for not wanting one is that why on earth would I want to go into a committed relationship with divorce as an option?

 

Call me an idealist, but there's no call for marriage if you're already planning for its failure.

 

 

You are not an idealist. a head in the sand outlook on divorce is not idealism, it is irresponsibility.

 

I don't plan on a fire in my home but I still have a fire extinguisher and home owners insurance.

 

I do not plan on wrecking my car but I still wear a seat belt and carry car insurance.

 

I do not plan on crashing my motorcycle but I still wear a helmet and carry motorcycle insurance.

 

I do not plan on sinking my boat but I still have PFDs for every passenger and carry boat insurance.

 

I do not plan on me or anyone in my family getting sick or injured but I still have health insurance for my family.

 

I do not plan on anyone breaking into my house but I still have a loaded 357 magnum secured in a quick-access gun safe and you guessed it, I have homeowners insurance.

 

Divorce is always an option every single day should the need arise. A prenup is simply divorce insurance to protect your assets in the event of a divorce.

[Clockwork]

Nope, don't bother with a prenup. Unless you are Donald Trump and you have billions and know the woman is only marrying you for that.

 

If you sign a pre-nup, that is basically like signing a future divorce paper. You know it is going to happen and you don't trust your partner going into the marriage. That's bad news right there. It'll lead to some other things. I mean, eventually you trust this person to be the parent of your children but you're afraid of your own shadow when it comes to the money? Not a good start and seemingly lacking confidence if you think you have little else to offer a woman other than money.