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Passionless marriage is eating away both of us from the inside


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shotinthedark

Hey all. Here's the story.

 

Been together for 10 years, married for 5. One year old daughter. We're both in our early 30s.

 

I find my wife very attractive, and she claims she finds me attractive as well. In that first year we were all over each other. After about the first year of being together though, the majority of our fights have been about sex and passion - basically there is no passion.

 

We generally have sex maybe once a week on average, however sex to her is a complete and total chore she forces herself to do. She's indicated that it is the absolute last thing that she would really care to do. She's told me she takes days to get mentally prepared for sex, and that the act of trying to have sex and possibly achieve orgasm takes intense concentration of the likes she does not need to use anywhere else in her life. As a sign that her libido and desire for sex on any level (and not my desire to watch or anything) is completely dead, she also claims that she has no desire to masturbate and has not done so in years.

 

There is zero foreplay (every man's dream, right), it is a generally a very cold, calculated, scripted, and business like proposition. She's completely silent, makes no sounds, there's no passion or hardly any willingness on her part to want to be there. I've asked her what I can do to get her in the mood, even giving her several days notice or really scheduling sex. She has told me there is absolutely nothing that I can do that will get her in the mood.

 

There's absolutely no passion. I understand that a 10 year old relationship isn't going to be exploding with lustful want and desire, but she can't even say that she looks at me and wants to be physically intimate with me. I could care less about her wanting to rip my clothes off and riding me into the sunset, I just want her to want me...I want her to be able to sincerely initiate, honestly want me to come to bed with her, and maybe, just maybe, hold my hand as she leads us into the bedroom.

 

I understand that the first year of life for your first child takes an unbelievable toll on the mother and puts strain on the relationship. However, this issue has always been here; having our daughter only intensified it further.

 

We're in marriage counseling now, it's been about 4 or 5 weeks. MC says that we don't know how to be friends, she will never have this desire, and that we should liken it two friends going to going to an art museum. Meaning, if you have a friend that you invite out to the art museum, and that friend doesn't like art, that friend can either say "no, I hate art," or choose to go anyway to support their friend's love of art. I don't want to be with someone who always has sex "as a friend" because I want sex, I want to feel that passion in our relationship isn't a one way street from me to her, with no return.

 

She's tried going the "supportive friend" route to the point of even buying lingerie. She basically complained that once I knew she was thinking of buying lingerie, my interest in the enterprise became too much pressure on her to "perform" and she withdrew once again.

 

MC also says that she only believes someone loves her if she withholds sex and that person still stays faithful to her. MC says I only believe someone loves me if a person that makes sex an impossibility gives into me. She agrees with the MC on his assessment of her, I don't really buy his assessment of me, otherwise I wouldn't be ready to give up and instead have the problem in the next paragraph.

 

This lack of passion has been driving me nuts. We basically only have the "family love" sides of the love triangle: commitment and intimacy, but no passion. I find myself seeking out other women that will at least show some interest in me as to provide some level of ego boost. I don't know how much longer I can do that until I reach the point of having a full blown affair; my willpower is at absolute rock bottom at this point.

 

We have communication problems - she feels I am overly critical of her in most aspects of her life. I really do care about her and try to support her emotionally but I guess I've never really learned the right way to do it. I'm sure this extends into a good portion of the reason we have passion issues, and I also see it as a vicious circle. She feels no passion, I express concern (criticism) of it, she feels even less passion, and so the cycle goes.

 

My parents are very upset with me for wanting to break this off. I don't know what her parents think, they got divorced after her dad found an OW. I also am worried about the future welfare of our daughter if we end this.

 

We're at the point where we sleep in different rooms. Neither of us know if we want to save this thing. Even if we did want to: I am sure I can improve on being a more supportive person, but she is not sure she can ever be a person that can feel passion for me or have any honest desire for sexual activity of any kind. And I don't know if I want to wait anymore to find out.

 

Thanks for reading and letting me vent...

Edited by shotinthedark
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Great first post. Here are a few questions to get you started:

 

-If the issue was there to begin with, what compromise did you make in your mind to get married to someone who you may not be ablet to find the passion you are looking for?

 

-Why in the world would you be talking to your parents about this? You are a grown man . Let them live their own lives. They are upset with you? Who cares what they think, this is your life.

 

-Spend some time getting your arms around her upbringing. Dig into this info with as much focus as you now show for why there is no passion. There may be some very serious clues in here and ones that might help re-plot a course of action .

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shotinthedark

Great questions waltham...

 

-If the issue was there to begin with, what compromise did you make in your mind to get married to someone who you may not be ablet to find the passion you are looking for?

 

I made a few compromises in my head. One was that she is an extremely supportive person who has been with me through all number of life's events - I didn't want to lose that support.

 

There was also a bit of guilt involved in the decision. That "seeking of other womens' affection" to fill in the missing pieces thing got me in trouble at one point, and I justified marriage as a way to prove I was serious about the relationship.

 

Another was that I was hoping that the mythical early-30s sexual desire boost for women would kick in at some point and help save the day, or at least that people change over time and maybe she would. After all, it isn't that she hasn't honestly tried to enjoy sex or have passion towards me in the relationship, it's just that she claims she just can not do those things.

 

I know those compromises don't exactly stack up well...

 

-Why in the world would you be talking to your parents about this? You are a grown man . Let them live their own lives. They are upset with you? Who cares what they think, this is your life.

 

I've been talking to my parents because I really don't have someone I can talk to about this that I trust and that will hear me out. (So here I am on a message board. :) ) My guy friends really aren't the "supportive" types and my women friends are either people I work with or friends of my wife.

 

And you're right, what they think overall really doesn't matter. I think what really bothers me and my parents about it is the family issue - my parents want to be active grandparents and I always had active grandparents. In the end, as selfish as it sounds, only I live my life, so I have to make the decisions about how I want it to carry forward.

 

 

-Spend some time getting your arms around her upbringing. Dig into this info with as much focus as you now show for why there is no passion. There may be some very serious clues in here and ones that might help re-plot a course of action .

 

Good idea. Here's what I know. Father was in the military, she spent most of her time moving from country to country around the world. Mother was a stay-at-home military wife. Family was Catholic but was not very religious or involved. Youngest sibling in the family, substantially younger than her older siblings as she was a "bonus" baby. Mother and Father constantly argued and apparently had what she perceived to be many sessions of rough, sometimes violent, always loud "grudge sex" that she constantly heard and occasionally accidentally walked in on. Mother and Father argued in a physically violent manner, with objects (including knives) being thrown at each other. Eventually it turned out that he had a long term affair with another woman and they broke off the marriage by the time she was in college. She's denied sexual or physical abuse from her parents and claims that her parents really didn't talk much of sex directly to her, positive, negative, or otherwise.

 

Another added quirk, she (until very recently due to all of the stress) refuses to use curse words at any level; the remainder of her immediate family curse like sailors. It has always made me wonder if there was some traumatic event that caused her to think all things "adult" (curse words, sex, etc.) were dirty, horrible things. I'll probably never find that out.

Edited by shotinthedark
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Passionate, romantic love requires care and feeding if it is to be sustained over the long haul. That's especially important if we also have kids who want & need our attention. In newer relationships, at least some level of passion is present with little to no effort, but after a few days, weeks, months, or years, it won't last if both of you are not tending to it.

 

I recommend a couple books: Passionate Marriage by David Schanarch(???) and the Idiots Guide to Intimacy (though I hate that title). The former gave me hope after 15 years of a marriage (+4 kids) with little passion or even affection -- it gave me hope that there really are things I can do that will change the situation. The change could be that I could succeed in getting my wife to join me in doing everything possible to make our marriage more passionate & loving, or that if I did not succeed, I could then be better prepared to deal with where that leads. The latter book told me a lot that I already knew but needed to hear again. Also, it includes some exercises that could be useful if your wife is willing to join you in them.

 

I'd like to post more as I think I've gone through a very similar experience. (Actually, I'm still in it, but it has been getting better.) Right now, I've got to get back to work. I'll try to come back on here later.

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The days of staying in a marriage to return the favor of letting your children have "active" grandparents is over. I am sure, 100% sure, that if your parents loved you as much as they say they do they would first want you to be happy, and put their needs to see their grandkids right below that.

 

Sounds like she has a little PTSD from a very loud and I hate to say it, passionate upbringing. I once dated a woman who parents fought like animals, and when I yelled a little or sat her down to chat she said I wasn't fighting enough for her. Some equate love and rage and emotion all in the same string.

 

Do you think she is afraid of her parents? Is she also trying to do the right thing, raise children, give grandchildren and work through the motions of pretending to desire you and want to make love?

 

Which do you think she enjoys more: being a mother or being a wife?

 

Sexual incompatibility has no place to go but down unless both members decide to take an active role in meeting somewhere in the middle.

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I think it's really bizaar that someone in their 30s has no desire for sex at all. It's probable that she has a hormonal imbalance because that is the first thing that can make or break sexual desire. Has she ever had that checked by a dr? I mean, even if she doesn't want to have sex with you, isn't that kind of a lifeless feeling to not have sexual feelings at all? It seems she would want to change it - not just for the sake of her marriage but for herself, too.

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my first thought also is hormone imbalance, with a bit of dysfunctional marriage examples by her parents. She might be repulsed by their form of "loving," so a lack of sex due to lack of hormones might not bother her.

 

which leads me to suggest two things:

1. get into a marriage enrichment session where you learn how to communicate your feelings of love (which aren't always sexual), which helps build up a positive image of sex, instead of the image of she's been carrying around of her parents' version of sex. You might look into "The Five Love Languages," which has a lot of good material and insight ...

 

2. when she gets to a point where she's comfortable with the idea that sex doesn't necessarily mean adopting her parents' style of loving, and she's shown a HEALTHY interest in lovemaking, encourage her to talk to her gynecologist for hormone replacement therapy or whatever it is to help restore her libido.

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For some reason this reminds me of a former girlfriend, who was really quiet in bed and probably to most guys would be the biggest bore, but honestly she was probably my favorite from any of my former girlfriends. We're both introverts and we both talked about how anyone that made noise in bed seemed to be acting or just sounded fake (not that they actually are faking), and both of us thought that the pressure to make noise or "talk dirty" was a big turn-off. But what I loved about her was that things were so quiet I could hear every one of her breaths and every little change to her breathing--well difficult to explain, I guess.

 

But anyway, I don't think myers-briggs personality types are 100% scientific, but they could be helpful in understanding where each of you might be coming from. You sound like you might be an extroverted-feeling type, and she might be introverted-thinking type--alot less expressively passionate and perhaps during sex she feels pressure to express on the outside what she's experienceing on the inside which would be going against the grain of who she is and might be what makes sex more work for her. And perhaps if she was comfortable being herself she'd enjoy sex with you more.

Edited by Tethys
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Wow, very thoughtful (passionate) thread and posts!

 

I know this is going against the grain, but leave the physical aspect (unless she initiates it) out of the equation for the time being. Focus on her emotional needs, be a great listener, don’t try to fix or change anything, just listen. The differences between men and women are fascinating, maybe I’ll write a book on that – oh never mind, that’s been done. Check out Mark Gungor on YouTube - The Tale of Two Brains, good stuff.

 

There are a lot of familial issues to sort through. What are her relationships and feelings toward her parents and sibs, as well as your parents (and sibs?). Is money an issue? Is the way you organize your surroundings an issue? Are there other “pet peeves” that one or both of you have?

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I know this is going against the grain, but leave the physical aspect (unless she initiates it) out of the equation for the time being.

 

I totally agree with this. Sex has become a huge issue in your marriage so it would be better to just stop having it, stop talking about it, stop making it the center of attention. Besides, can you actually enjoy it knowing she's just laying there hoping for it to be over. I would rather go play with myself in the shower or something. Anything but an unwilling partner. Also, by taking sex out of the loop, if she's playing games with you, this takes her power away.

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Angel,

So the answer is he should be celibate for life? If she truly physically does not like sex and he stops asking - they will never have sex. Full stop done - endgame. Why should he be celibate for life - and it will shorten his life some amount.

 

 

I totally agree with this. Sex has become a huge issue in your marriage so it would be better to just stop having it, stop talking about it, stop making it the center of attention. Besides, can you actually enjoy it knowing she's just laying there hoping for it to be over. I would rather go play with myself in the shower or something. Anything but an unwilling partner. Also, by taking sex out of the loop, if she's playing games with you, this takes her power away.
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Angel,

So the answer is he should be celibate for life? If she truly physically does not like sex and he stops asking - they will never have sex. Full stop done - endgame. Why should he be celibate for life - and it will shorten his life some amount.

 

No, I don't think that at all. I should've elaborated. I meant that while they're going through counseling and working on their marriage they should take the focus off of sex. Sex itself is almost never the issue in a relationship - it's the end product of all the other underlying problems. But because it's a big deal, it tends to take center stage when couples are focusing on their problems. Sometimes, for awhile, it needs to be removed from the equation in order to get to the heart of the matter. By continuing to have sex, he's putting pressure on her, and he's continuing to feel dissatisfied by her lack of desire. If things don't improve once the pressure is off and once they've examined what's going on between them, then yes it's time to move on. There's no reason to stay in such a stressful marriage.

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shotinthedark

Thanks for all the thoughtful posts, everyone. Some great points to think about here...

 

my first thought also is hormone imbalance, with a bit of dysfunctional marriage examples by her parents.

 

She's promised to go to see a doctor about hormone imbalance this week. She revealed to me in a larger conversation last night (that I will get to below) that contrary to what she's told me previously, she actually does masturbate occasionally and prefers it to sex, as she can O in "minutes" versus the overwhelming struggle she goes through to get there when we are together. There's obviously a "the brain is the biggest sexual organ" issue going on here, but I am not convinced it's the only factor.

 

I mean, even if she doesn't want to have sex with you, isn't that kind of a lifeless feeling to not have sexual feelings at all? It seems she would want to change it - not just for the sake of her marriage but for herself, too.

 

In the same conversation last night, she basically said she is completely happy not having sexual feelings. She's a non-sexual person and completely happy being that way. She has no desire to change that (or hope that she could change it if she wanted to) for the sake of our marriage.

 

I know this is going against the grain, but leave the physical aspect (unless she initiates it) out of the equation for the time being. Focus on her emotional needs, be a great listener, don’t try to fix or change anything, just listen.

 

This is great advice, I think. It does somewhat seem counter intuitive, but I do think she needs this type of attention in order to heal and work up to other things on her side of the fence. I'm willing to try it, but somewhat selfishly worried that after putting all that time and effort into it, that nothing will change.

 

What are her relationships and feelings toward her parents and sibs, as well as your parents (and sibs?).

 

Close relationship with her mother and sister - her mother often acts as an amateur unqualified personal therapist for her, which isn't really a good thing in my opinion. More distant relationship with father and other sibs. She pretty much dislikes my parents and sibs, but my parents and sibs are admittedly an acquired taste. I'm not even a huge fan of my family sometimes.

 

Is money an issue? Is the way you organize your surroundings an issue? Are there other “pet peeves” that one or both of you have?

 

The only money issue we really have is that she has always wanted to move away from joint finances and move back to our pre-married state of separate finances for each of us. I'm not keen on that idea but am willing to compromise on it. I believe she wants to do that because she does not want me to spend what she perceives as "her" money on my hobbies and activities (school, video games, sporting events, the kind of car I like to drive, etc.) It has caused some tension occasionally but it's never really been a core issue in our relationship. We're both fairly successful professionally and make good money, so no financial strain there.

 

I'm certainly a bit more disorganized, which has caused an issue. At one point she asked me to go to therapy for it, which I did and where I was diagnosed with adult ADD. I've learned alot about myself and how to better structure my life to adjust for it. She has learned how to help me deal with it and honestly does an amazing job in that regard.

 

She is extremely competitive and regularly finds ways to call me "lazy," even though I shoulder as much of a load around the house as she does. I do my own laundry, handle the majority of the yard work, handle the majority of the household and automotive "handy man" tasks, constantly clean dishes, share responsibility in preparing meals, completely take ownership of care of our daughter before work, handle all of the finances and bill paying, do grocery shopping for the family, etc. She makes up unnecessary menial household tasks (for example, "I need to repaint the base boards again") to occupy herself and add to her "I do more stuff than you" score. I've even hired a cleaning service at her request to take some of that necessity away - she still finds more random "stuff" to do. I feel like she pushes this button to feel that she has a competitive "I'm the better spouse" edge over me.

 

On a separate note, the conversation I mentioned - she told me last night she wants a divorce. She's already been researching lawyers and apartments. After talking a while she backed away from the Big D ledge, but made it clear that at this point anything nice I do is construed as an attempt at pressuring her for sex, and anything outside of that that I do (talking to friends, particularly females; withdrawing physically; etc.) is a sign of my lack of commitment. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

 

On a positive note, we did sleep in the same bed again after that talk. She touched my hand and gave me a hug when we got up in the morning, it felt very uncomfortable. Can't exactly put my finger on the feelings why I felt that way other than general hurt.

Edited by shotinthedark
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I'm sorry you are going through this. It must totally suck.

 

I read the entire thread and my initial feeling about this is that your wife doesn't respect you. You are too "nice" to her and it's a turn off. It seems like she pushes you around, giving you orders that you acquiesce in an attempt to make her happy, but it probably makes her feel like you are like a child and she has two children instead of one. If she feels like your mother, of course it will be a turn off to have sex with you.

 

I think you need to figure out a way to show her that you are a man worthy of her admiration. I don't know what type of woman your wife is but if you remind her that you are her hero I think it would awaken her passion.

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How much time away from you does she have during a typical day? This story begins to sound familiar.

 

Sometimes they say "I have no interest in sex" when what they really mean is "I have no interest in sex with you".

 

Just something to consider.

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Desire for separate finances, complaints about H being lazy and passionless sex would surely have me reaching for my lawyer's card in the rolodex. Sorry :(

 

I think there's 'something else' going on, words I said to my stbx on a couple of occasions. What I'm reading here is that she's rewriting your M to match up with her feelings, about what or who I do not know. Beware...

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Desire for separate finances, complaints about H being lazy and passionless sex would surely have me reaching for my lawyer's card in the rolodex. Sorry :(

 

I think there's 'something else' going on, words I said to my stbx on a couple of occasions. What I'm reading here is that she's rewriting your M to match up with her feelings, about what or who I do not know. Beware...

 

Exactly where I was heading.....

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shotinthedark
How much time away from you does she have during a typical day? This story begins to sound familiar.

 

Sometimes they say "I have no interest in sex" when what they really mean is "I have no interest in sex with you".

 

Just something to consider.

 

Usually we're away from each other from 7am - 6pm or so on a regular week day. She really doesn't go out with friends or anything at all. A typical night sees her retreat into the bedroom and reads magazines or watches TV.

 

While I don't rule out someone else being in the picture, it would be a complete and utter shock to me, as she's home in bed by 9:30 every night. Usually, you have a good idea of who that person might be, and based on her lack of friends to go out with I would have no idea who that would be...

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The fact you are fully aware of how she feels about sex and are still having sex with her once a week screams to me you and your needs/feelings are so much more important than her and her needs/feelings.

 

Look how you feel about her because she won't put out, and now imagine how she must feel about you. She isn't forcing you to do something you find traumatizing on a weekly basis, no, that is what you are doing to her. I would be thankful she hasn't killed you in your sleep.

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shotinthedark
The fact you are fully aware of how she feels about sex and are still having sex with her once a week screams to me you and your needs/feelings are so much more important than her and her needs/feelings.

 

Look how you feel about her because she won't put out, and now imagine how she must feel about you. She isn't forcing you to do something you find traumatizing on a weekly basis, no, that is what you are doing to her. I would be thankful she hasn't killed you in your sleep.

 

Ouch. Now that's insightful. :rolleyes:

 

Let me set this straight - she's not being "forced." It's not rape. Is it "traumatizing" for her? I don't get that feeling - it's something she is generally disinterested in. She claims that often once we get going, she enjoys it. She schedules (for lack of a better term) it weekly because that's how she feels comfortable negotiating our sex life. In fact, I don't often initiate anymore - the whole thing is on her terms, when she is comfortable. She makes it pretty clear that she does it as just another one of her "chores." When I try to initiate outside of that weekly cycle, I am generally rejected.

 

The problem is the "chore" factor. She does it out of some duty she feels to keep me happy and in the relationship, not because she truly wants to share it with me.

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Ouch. Now that's insightful. :rolleyes:

 

Let me set this straight - she's not being "forced." It's not rape. Is it "traumatizing" for her? I don't get that feeling - it's something she is generally disinterested in. She claims that often once we get going, she enjoys it. She schedules (for lack of a better term) it weekly because that's how she feels comfortable negotiating our sex life. In fact, I don't often initiate anymore - the whole thing is on her terms, when she is comfortable. She makes it pretty clear that she does it as just another one of her "chores." When I try to initiate outside of that weekly cycle, I am generally rejected.

 

The problem is the "chore" factor. She does it out of some duty she feels to keep me happy and in the relationship, not because she truly wants to share it with me.

 

Do you ever turn down the weekly predetermined date?

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shotinthedark
Do you ever turn down the weekly predetermined date?

 

Yes, on occasion. Especially when I can tell she's doing it out of "duty".

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Agoraphobianebula

I think she's just bored, mostly with you and in general. She sounds like a passionless person to me, not just in the sex department but in life. Reading magazines and watching TV every night? in bed by 9:30? what does she do on the weekends? Does she have friends? talk to anyone on the phone? Go out on the town? dress up flatteringly?

 

I'm guessing that she is one of those very "blah people". The are usually introverts and content with hanging out in their little space,usually square in shape. They wake up, eat, work, sleep, rinse and repeat day in day out. In addition to that, she sounds like she is ok being who she is so ofcourse, any attempt anyone makes to breathe life into her will be vigorously resisted. The hardest battle of all is trying to change a person who doesn't think there is anything wrong with him/her in the first place. She likes herself as is so ofcourse you have absolutely no point to her.

 

I feel for you, it must be a frustrating existence. But you said that things go to be this way after the 1st year of being together. Man, you saw the writing on the wall and you basically ignored it.

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Yes, on occasion. Especially when I can tell she's doing it out of "duty".

 

My suggestion is to stop having sex with her until her attitude improves. If it doesn't improve within a certain amount of time (your decision), leave the marriage.

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Agoraphobianebula

Also, you said you have been married 10 years and in your early 30s so this means you got married rather young. Do you ever wonder if your relationship has just run its course?

 

Did either of you date much before you got together/married? Did you get to experience adult life outside each other before your paths crossed?

 

And are there any other problems in the marriage outside of the sex issue? Are you friends, do you communicate well, love, laugh, enjoy each other?

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