Need encouragement, plus whatup with black underwear?

[luvstarved]

OK I am gearing up for next counseling appointment. I have made an appointment with my H to talk about things (he does not know specifically what, but it is in fact sex) tomorrow night. I intend to just blow the top off of his continuing evasion about our sex life at the next appointment and want to give him a chance to "come clean" first. So far, has been the same "it is not a problem", "sex is unimportant" stuff, while he continues to frequently take care of himself in bathroom.

 

He quit porn (and don't tell me that he is hiding it, believe me, he ain't, I am quite thorough, and he was never THAT into it in the first place) and started having sex with me 8 months ago after 8 virtually sexless years, but so mechanically and joylessly that I finally in last couple of weeks started saying "no thanks". He has been like, "why not?" but I have just made excuses.

 

So given that I actually hope to make some progress, I want to present things in a way that will help him to open up to me, vs clamming up and changing the subject as usual. I mean, I KNOW that he somehow prefers masturbation and have given him leading opportunities to admit it but he denies it, which is stupid because it is so bleeding obvious. One day he just isn't that into sex, the next I am too mean to him, the next he thinks I am putting on performance pressure, the next we just don't have time for that, the next we are too old for that (forties, I don't think so), blah blah. He not only denied that he preferred masturbation but that such a person could even exist.

 

It is important to get him to admit it because until he does I don't see how I can work on getting back to being a part of his sex life in an open meaningful way. I don't want that joyless crap anymore. I almost feel like I am raping him,or hiring a gigolo.

 

So any thoughts on how to approach in an inviting way would be appreciated.

 

Another new wrinkle is that he apparently has been hording my black underpants for unknown purposes. I was looking through one of his drawers the other day and found a couple of pair I had not seen in a long time and I wondered why they were there but just let it go. But today I was looking and lo and behold, there were two more pair, now a grand total of 4, and all black. That can't be a coincidence, but WTF? They were all clean...next to all of this was a set of nude pictures of HIMSELF that I took a few years ago. No pics of me, just him (the shots he took of me on same occasion were not nude, but they were me, at least).

 

Can someone actually be romantically attracted to themselves??? Cripes.

 

Anyway I made a remark that my underwear seemed to be disappearing just like my socks do, and he just said "hmm...I wonder who is taking them?" (I have two teenaged daughters so there are other potential suspects).

 

He has never exhibited any cross dressing type tendencies, all I can think of is that perhaps he has been using them as some degree of inspiration knowing that I am monitoring the porn situation. Any guys out there have any insight on this? Why would he need multiple pairs? Clearly he has gone into my underwear drawer to fetch the desired pairs. My God, how weird does life have to get?

[Enema]

He should see a doctor before a counsellor imo.

 

I had a low sex drive, saw the doctor, discovered i have low testosterone so was perscribed some testo patches.

 

Easy as pie, put one on every day under my shirt... sex drive has reappeared.

 

Not going to touch on your issues, but that's what I'd do if I was him.

[Mr. Lucky]

Is your underwear drawer in the CLOSET? Ok, bad pun...

 

I think you may have to prepare yourself for the fact that your H may have different concept of sexuality that you do. Doesn't enjoy sex with you, in denial about it, doing something with your undies isn't conclusive, but he may be coming to terms with something profound. Gay? Transexual? Repressed? Fetished? Certainly a good thing that you're already in therapy as it could get dicey...

 

Mr. Lucky

[luvstarved]

Our early sex life was great,disappeared after daughter born. Early in relationship though he told me two things he'd "never told anyone" - a) that he enjoyed light anal stimulation (oooooh shocker, don't know why he was so embarrassed about that) b) he sometimes got "sexual signals" from his mother - when I said I thought one or both of them had unresolved feelings there, he said *I* was twisted and would never discuss again.

 

When he did look at porn it was pretty much amateur blow jobs and/or "mature" ladies, so there is something going on consistent with these prior revelations but I can't get anything conclusive. Sometimes I think he just likes to jerk off because it is easy and doesn't require any reciprocity. He is not big in general on reciprocity. He did say in one recent discussion that wrt giving me oral sex: "I feel differently about it now", i.e., he won't do it. Foreplay has been me watching him masturbate or my doing a bj if needed. He has not intentionally touched me "down there" other than with his johnson since our 8 year old daughter was born.

 

Man I don't know. I have been so thwarted and perplexed that I admit I have monitored him for external misbehavior and there is no evidence of such and I do not observe him to be ogling other people much...the little he does of it does seem directed toward the ladies.

 

But, he just denies and claims he wants me but...yadayada. I just HAVE to get to the truth somehow but just can't get him to get real with me.

[luvstarved]

He should see a doctor before a counsellor imo.

 

I had a low sex drive, saw the doctor, discovered i have low testosterone so was perscribed some testo patches.

 

Easy as pie, put one on every day under my shirt... sex drive has reappeared.

 

Not going to touch on your issues, but that's what I'd do if I was him.

 

But...he...is...masturbating 4 or 5 times a week and when we were getting back into things recently, it was 1-3 times a week. He might have a slightly less automatic response than he did when he was 19 but so what? That's normal. I don't know what he is trying to hide, it could be performance anxiety at some level, but that just doesn't feel accurate in the big picture...

[Enema]

Ok, from the things you described it does sound more like a pscyhological issue than a physical one.

 

Masturbation and sex-drive aren't related btw. I was taking care of business every day, but never wanted to have sex. Stopping masturbation didn't change anything for me either.

 

It's as natural and unrelated to sex as cracking your knuckles

[luvstarved]

Ok, from the things you described it does sound more like a pscyhological issue than a physical one.

 

Masturbation and sex-drive aren't related btw. I was taking care of business every day, but never wanted to have sex. Stopping masturbation didn't change anything for me either.

 

It's as natural and unrelated to sex as cracking your knuckles

 

Aw c'mon! You have GOT to be kidding! I have heard that before but I have trouble getting my brain around that. I mean, do you masturbate without any FANTASY? Just draining the lizard, like taking a pee with additional choreography? I say if there are sexual thoughts involved, then it is related to sex drive...how that "plays out" is a sexual preference but not lack of interest. You can't really be telling me you masturbated without thinking of some type of sexual act...???

[LucreziaBorgia]

Perhaps he is either a latent homosexual, or a fetishist who can't (and probably won't ever) enjoy vanilla sex. Either way, have you suggested seeing a sex therapist? Understand that the more of his psyche he has to hide, the more resistant he will be to that sort of thing. One way or the other though, something has got to give. If he refuses to go, your choices are limited to: celibacy (where you either cope with it, or be unhappy with it), coerced mechanical sex, or divorce.

[Enema]

Aw c'mon! You have GOT to be kidding! I have heard that before but I have trouble getting my brain around that. I mean, do you masturbate without any FANTASY? Just draining the lizard, like taking a pee with additional choreography? I say if there are sexual thoughts involved, then it is related to sex drive...how that "plays out" is a sexual preference but not lack of interest. You can't really be telling me you masturbated without thinking of some type of sexual act...???

 

I think there's some misunderstanding here.

 

Of course you fantasize when you masturbate.

 

To rephrase your sentence though, "if there are sexual thoughts involved, then it is related to sexual fantasies". Sex-Drive by my definition is merely the drive to have sex, the frequency of it and has nothing to do with the sex acts themselves.

 

So with that in mind, masturbation has nothing to do with his desire to have sex, these things are unrelated. Though, his fantasies while masturbating may have something to do with it.

[Sheba]

Luvstarved

 

I do have a couple of observations, which may or may not be welcome.

 

First of all, the statement your husband made about his mother is troubling. There is sexual abuse by women of their sons, as bizarre as that seems. And, if such a thing had occurred between your husband and his mother, that would certainly explain why he is unable to have a normal sex life with you. I believe parent child incest is just as damaging to boys as it is to girls and is even more of a "dark secret" because it is so bizarre and so shattering.

 

Imagine the courage it would take for a man to admit his own mother had touched him in a sexual manner?

 

Secondly, I do know personally of a situation when a man who was married for over 20 years suddenly revealed to his wife and family that he felt that he was a woman inside. He received counselling, left his wife, got a sex change operation and is presently living as a woman with another woman as his (her?) partner. I have talked to the wife. She described her utter lack of suspicion about his "secret nature". She talked about how he rejected her and made her feel unlovable, how he was angry and depressed for a long time before he dropped this emotional bomb on her.

 

I have also met the former husband and it is odd to see indeed, as he looks like a man dressed up as a woman. Despite that, he is apparently happier, having given up his job and his role as a father (his children have mostly rejected him).

 

I have no idea what is going on with your husband but it does sound very odd. Eight years of barely touching you is bizarre. The story about the panties is bizarre. All I can say is that you shouldn't reject any possible explanation as too weird, because these things DO happen. With that in mind, I actually feel a little anticipatory pity for your husband, along with a great deal of sympathy for you.

 

I wish you great luck in your counselling.

[happygirl70]

Our early sex life was great,disappeared after daughter born. Early in relationship though he told me two things he'd "never told anyone" - a) that he enjoyed light anal stimulation (oooooh shocker, don't know why he was so embarrassed about that) b) he sometimes got "sexual signals" from his mother - when I said I thought one or both of them had unresolved feelings there, he said *I* was twisted and would never discuss again.

 

When he did look at porn it was pretty much amateur blow jobs and/or "mature" ladies, so there is something going on consistent with these prior revelations but I can't get anything conclusive. Sometimes I think he just likes to jerk off because it is easy and doesn't require any reciprocity. He is not big in general on reciprocity. He did say in one recent discussion that wrt giving me oral sex: "I feel differently about it now", i.e., he won't do it. Foreplay has been me watching him masturbate or my doing a bj if needed. He has not intentionally touched me "down there" other than with his johnson since our 8 year old daughter was born.

 

Man I don't know. I have been so thwarted and perplexed that I admit I have monitored him for external misbehavior and there is no evidence of such and I do not observe him to be ogling other people much...the little he does of it does seem directed toward the ladies.

 

But, he just denies and claims he wants me but...yadayada. I just HAVE to get to the truth somehow but just can't get him to get real with me.

 

 

I think there is valid reason to think he is using masturbation this way. It is easy and quick. I'm wondering if the fact that you gave birth to his child has somehow created a shift in his thinking and now he thinks of you as a "mother" and not a lover. Given that he said this about his mom, this might be bringing him a lot of turmoil, esp if the "signals" he got from his mom were frightening for him. The level of intensity to these feelings could range from just a little to overwhelming. If this is happening, he could really use the counseling to get over it... but he'll have to be willing to face up to it. To me, it really sounds like you being a mom is the main thing that has wigged him out.

 

The anal stimulation comment made me laugh, because LOTS of men really enjoy this and society has created this idea that this menas you are gay... NOT true (though it is apparent you know that). Call me crazy but I think there is a sweet element to him using your black panties to get inspired. Much better than many creepy things I can think of and it is associated with YOU so that is a good sign.

 

As for talking to him about this, you have to be very careful because you have discussed it before and it appears he is very defensive and frightened of the subject. You have to be calm, caring and compassionate. You cannot be judgmental. You have to come from the place in you that is broken from all of this. I am sure he never meant to hurt you, he just doesn't know what to do with what is going on in his head and with so much in there I can surely understand. Somewhere something goes screwed up in his thinking about you and sex, which could be coming from that little boy inside who got all those messed up signals from mom. He can't toss those out, but a counselor could help me find a way to cope with them so they can be shelved away and stop interferring with your sexual relationship. HE needs to see someone... but you have to be there for him and find a way to push your hurt aside enough to be able to do that. It isn't easy, but it seems you really want this to work. You have to not judge him over the panties, the masturbation, or anything else you deem 'weird' because these are parts of him and it all boils down to what is sexually comfortable for him. We are all built (physically and emotionally) different and while we don't always understand each other, we can make it work if we can find a middle ground.

 

I wish you all the best!

[Mr. Lucky]

or a fetishist who can't (and probably won't ever) enjoy vanilla sex.

 

Which doesn't mean that you couldn't still have a good and satisfying marriage. Good sex is like ice cream - comes in all different kind of flavors. As others have pointed out, Step 1 involves you or your therapist getting him to let down his guard and discuss the underlying issues...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Sheba]

I will just add, luvstarved, that my counsellor told me that it would take getting into a place of comfort before I could expect my husband to let her or I penetrate his defenses. She asked me to bite my tongue and be as kind as possible for two weeks (she started off asking for more time, but then realized my own concerns made it impossible for me to look so far into the future).

 

Perhaps the "breakthrough" - if it is one - at our marital counselling session this week is the result of my adherence to her advice?

 

Maybe your husband will need similar consideration before he feels safe enough to disclose whatever it is that he is hiding.

[IpAncA]

I think you may have to prepare yourself for the fact that your H may have different concept of sexuality that you do. Doesn't enjoy sex with you, in denial about it, doing something with your undies isn't conclusive, but he may be coming to terms with something profound. Gay? Transexual? Repressed? Fetished? Certainly a good thing that you're already in therapy as it could get dicey...

 

I agree.

 

Whatever the reason is, hopefully theapy will bring it out.

 

Good luck!

[luvstarved]

Thanks for all responses -

 

Right now I am either rethinking this or chickening out and calling it rethinking.

 

For some reason, tonight it just seems flat out humorous that my H finds my undies more sexually compelling than me. I can't help it. My self-esteem has been challenged in this situation, but...well one can't be jealous of one's own undergarments, can one???

 

Anyway there were some things mentioned that do coincide with my instincts on this. I do not think that my H was sexually abused by his mother. I think that the way she spoiled and flattered him, coupled with the fact that he lived with her with long droughts between women...that those feelings just came along here and there, and I think they came from him, really. Her demeanor is sort of like a sexless porn star - "you, you, you are fabulous, I'll do anything for you, I LIVE for you" so in some sense probably his ideal woman. I am a far cry from that ideal.

 

I also don't think he is gay - true, his sexual world is extremely dick-centric, but I think that he is only interested in his, not other guys'. I suppose there is something vaguely homosexual about that, but no real threat. He does spend a lot of time at the gym though. He acts somewhat homophobic too. So yeah sure he's got some repressed stuff but I don't think he's doing the whole living a lie and about to run off with the landscaper thing. I do think he had some shame stuff with the porn, but again he was all over the map, not only giving me contradictory versions of his feelings(I am ashamed of it, I have uncontrollable urges to look at it, it is harmless, I have a right to look at it, it is virtual cheating, it means nothing), but telling me what I thought, too (you are like all wives who just can't understand and tolerate porn, the guys at the gym agree with me - although I told him plainly my only issue was that it was exacerbating the sexless marriage situation).

 

Thing is, my gut tells me that it isn't anything that would not have occurred with any other woman he'd been with more than two years (and I am the first in his life to qualify). So, it's not me. I don't think it is another woman and I don't think physical infidelity is on the horizon. On the other hand, given his avoidance of me, I also don't think that he's in the bathroom thinking of me, either. God knows what he fantasizes about.

 

The problem is, though, everything I have is a guess and whatever guess is correct, the bottom line remains that I don't see how we can acheive a workable compromise here. So at this point I still want to use the appointment to talk with him about things...but I think the topic du jour might instead be general lack of trust, because after all, in the end, isn't that the real problem??? That he can't trust me enough to be honest with me? The irony there is: if I don't get some real answers, I will certainly eventually bolt. If I do get some real answers, I will do my best to work with him to find mutual satisfaction. And maybe bolt if that isn't possible, but at least there is hope in that scenario.

[SydneyHeart]

ummm yeah that's a bit odd!

 

Wouldn't say alarm bells need to go off, but when you figure out whats going on, let me know will ya? I'm interested

 

Sounds like he really has a different view on sexuality and he is having a problem admitting it to the extent of vocalising it with you. Prob thinks to himself its not ok, so he doesnt want to give it legs by talking to you about it. Like he didnt want to give the stuff with his Mom legs, you know.

 

As to how to deal, no clue! He knows you are not happy, so I would just tell him that you want to see if counsellor has any new ideas on how to incorporate more sex into your busy stressful lives because it seems like you never get to do it anymore!

 

Have you had the apt? How did it go?

[luvstarved]

Syd, We had another session today and it went well. Broached sex subject but not in great detail (He's satisfied, she's not). The bottom line is that we both need to trust each other more and allow ourselves to be more vulnerable and only by doing that will we ever be able to be open and honest together. Made sense. So will work on that and hope that it turns us eventually into the true best friends and lovers we ought to be. The road is long but there are places we need to go...

 

On the funny prankster side, I found another pair of black lace panties of mine and I slipped them into the drawer with the others. He hasn't said anything yet but will interesting when he does. I really think that he took them for inspiration in the absence of porn and I don't really care, heck I'd play with him and my underwear if it did anything for him...I also noticed that one of the pair was not actually clean, had some semen on it. I hoped he would have taken it out when he did his laundry but he seems attached. When I went to put in the new pair, the stain was arranged to be instantly visible on opening the drawer. What a romantic.

 

Anyway feeling a bit better at the moment. Hanging in there, 5 toes hanging inside the marriage, 5 toes hanging outside...interesting tug of war...

[SydneyHeart]

Oh my gosh! I am REALLY impressed that you manage to keep such good humour when this has been dragging on for you for some many years! My how our ideas of romance change over time huh?

 

So is it really just when he is face to face with you he has some serious mother of the children issues? Cos when he's just got your panties, seems like he's having a fine time! And he wants you to know it!

 

You sound very open in your posts - do you really also have difficulty opening up to him?

[Flyin in Clouds]

Luvstarved,

 

Maybe you could try this... is he a competitive type?

 

Get dressed to kill, black sheer undies, black blace bra, short skirt, revealing top and as you're walking out the door tell him you are going to a new bar in town to see if you can pick up a stud to give you some of the lovin he's not.

 

What will his reaction be? Try to stop you? Encourage you? Not care one way or the other?

 

Maybe the though of other men wanting you will spare some competitive drine in him to "win" you.

 

What did you do before you where married to attract his attention? Being married to the same old ball and chain has gotten boring. Porn? that's different. Fantasy.

If he refuses to go, your choices are limited to: celibacy (where you either cope with it, or be unhappy with it), coerced mechanical sex, or divorce.

 

Have you tried seduction?

[luvstarved]

Luvstarved,

 

Maybe you could try this... is he a competitive type?

 

Get dressed to kill, black sheer undies, black blace bra, short skirt, revealing top and as you're walking out the door tell him you are going to a new bar in town to see if you can pick up a stud to give you some of the lovin he's not.

 

What will his reaction be? Try to stop you? Encourage you? Not care one way or the other?

 

Maybe the though of other men wanting you will spare some competitive drine in him to "win" you.

 

What did you do before you where married to attract his attention? Being married to the same old ball and chain has gotten boring. Porn? that's different. Fantasy.

 

 

Have you tried seduction?

 

Hi Flyin'...thanks for input...to be honest, right at the moment, I am slightly dumpy - not a tank, but well I'll say it 5'8" and 145 pounds. So I would not feel very sexy in that getup and would probably look ridiculous. Not to mention being in my 40s. I was very thin when we met (same height of course but 120 lbs) and I did go down to 125 a couple of years ago but it had no impact so I figured, hey if I'm not getting any sex, then chocolate will have to do!! Anyway I would fear that the competition would end up being with ME and him trying to see who he could interest otherwise (that's how my "open marriage" - first marriage - worked out, turned into "sex wars" - UGGGHHHH)

 

I am back on weight loss routine, going to gym, etc so I will be back to my fighting weight in 2-3 months but...not sure that's what it is about anyway. I also tried seduction for a while but just got tired of the rejection.

 

What did I do when we first met? Matinee hand jobs, highway hummers, role playing, oils, toys, massages, positions, positions, positions, blah blah blah. He was a bit uncomfortable with some of it, some he liked even though a tad shy and at some point there were kids, etc and all that went out the window.

 

We are in counseling and he is trying harder now. Quit looking at porn (I would not have objected if it weren't for the fact that I was being deprived and it was contributing to that, maybe it can come back into play later) and going to counseling, etc.

 

I am THRILLED to report that today, for the first time in EIGHT YEARS YES YOU READ RIGHT he reciprocated on oral sex. That one has been making me crazy because he is actually great at it. Even better than that, though, we hung out and TALKED afterwards, and even a little about the sex. Frankly at this point there is some awkwardness and nervousness on both our parts, and we were able to say so and discuss a little. That is HUGE from mister "meat and potatoes, it's all good, what's to talk about".

 

For example, I told him I couldn't quite make the big O because I was afraid I was taking too long and he said he sensed that and also he told me that I was the first "real relationship" he'd ever actually been in, which was something I suspected but never heard. Think he might have been a member of what we called in high school the 4F club, which basically means do 'em til you're bored and move on. That would actually explain a LOT.

 

Plus in a lot of ways his thoughts on relationships seem very stereotypical, including once the honeymoon is over, sex is always boring. I also think he would be mortified to admit if he finds other women more "exciting" even though I can perfectly understand why this would be true, at least at this point. He asked, well what do people DO after ten years? I said, they take advantage of the presumed comfort and intimacy and REALLY open up and get what they REALLY want. Problem with that - we haven't gotten the intimacy and comfort yet!!! He just would never talk about it and seemed to assume that any fun was going to have to come from porn and masturbation, rather than facing the reality together and working on it.

 

Hopefully over time he will continue to open up and work with me to get the spice back. He has mentioned a fear that I expect him to "jump through hoops" which I interpret as going back to every experimental getting-to-know-you activity I trotted out way back when. I really don't expect all that, just openness and honesty and mutual giving. That's the relationship I have been trying to get all my life, and I am hoping it is still possible with him.

[Darth Vader]

Be careful not to be vunerable to other men out there, if you two have been having problems in the bedroom, well that could be a temptation coming your way. At least from what you state, he's trying. Maybe if you wear really sexy panties and no bra, and meet him at the door, or something......... Make sure you have a robe on or something just in case if someone else is out there, so you don't give other people a show, make sure no one else is there and Ta Da! Surprise! Well it would be different.......