Should this be a dealbreaker?

[Grapesofwrath]

Looking for some thoughtful advice here.

 

I've been dating someone for 4-5 months. We have been getting along famously. Lots of fun together. Great chemistry. Wonderful conversations. Daily contact either via text or phone when we can't see each other. (We are both divorced parents, so our schedules don't always make it easy to spend time together.)

 

He is a wonderful man in so many ways and I feel cherished, respected, valued and adored. He is not perfect, of course, and has a tendency toward over-thinking things and getting anxious over current circumstances. (He has to sell his house and move, being the biggest stressor currently.)

 

So here is the issue: He was married for 15 years. To hear him tell it, he was not in love with her for most of it and things were very cold and distant between them. During that marriage, both parties had affairs. Hers was the first. She was very career/money-oriented and was rarely at home. So her affairs occurred in the context of work trips and conferences, etc. He had told me a while ago that he had an affair with someone he found on CL. Intended just to be sex, but she wanted a relationship so he ended it.

 

Earlier this week, he felt compelled to tell me more about the extra-marital affair history. He said this is because he has very strong feelings for me and wants me to know what I'm getting because he has this history. (i.e. buyer beware.)What he told me is that he actually had sex with 5 other women during his marriage. Four from Craig's list and 1 that he met on a trip out of town. This all occurred about 6-7 years ago.

 

We are going away for the weekend tomorrow, and I've really been looking forward to this trip. We agreed that we would talk more about this issue, which I want to do. But I'm wondering what questions I should ask and whether it's possible for someone to behave this way during a marriage and not repeat it in subsequent relationships.

 

He has told me that he feels I am the ideal woman for him. "This is how I would have it, if I could draw it up." He has said that "this is how I always thought it should be and could be." So I'm getting a lot of input that he cares about me a lot and values the relationship. But does it matter? Will it eventually and inevitably come down to him doing something like this if we are in a rough patch? Is this a deal breaker?

[snowcones]

Yes. He's grooming you.

[Grapesofwrath]

Then why tell me about it now? I didn't ask. It wasn't a current topic of conversation. It's more that he feels he needs to have a clean conscious moving forward. He expresses shame and regret about it.

[Ruby Slippers]

It would be a dealbreaker for me. People who can justify cheating will always find another justification during tough times, which everybody goes through.

 

Personally, I've never cheated and have never been with someone who's ever cheated. It's just way too far from my character and values, and way too risky.

[Grapesofwrath]

Thanks, Ruby. I hear what you are saying. I have to be honest, though, and admit that when I was younger, I did cheat on some boyfriends, mainly as a cowardly and immature way of breaking up. (That was in my 20s and early 30s. I'm now 52) And I had an emotional affair at the end of my marriage. This was all many years ago, and I've had 3 relationships since getting divorced, none of which involved any cheating on my part. So I do believe that people can learn and grow up and realize how damaging cheating is. It's just the trolling for sex on Craig's List thing that has me freaked out.

[smackie9]

People are creatures of habit. Never say never. This should be a dealbreaker.

[d0nnivain]

Both so many instances of cheating AND his decision to share this with you would bother me. This is not a man who can be trusted to be monogamous. If you would like to continue having fun with him, carry on but don't for 1 second thing he won't cheat on you too.

[elaine567]

It's just the trolling for sex on Craig's List thing that has me freaked out.

 

Me too, even if he was single at the time which he wasn't, it would make no difference.

Its just not a good look.

It would be a dealbreaker for me.

[Timshel]

Then why tell me about it now? I didn't ask. It wasn't a current topic of conversation. It's more that he feels he needs to have a clean conscious moving forward. He expresses shame and regret about it.

 

 

He says 5 other women during his marriage, I'd at least double that number.

 

He is ashamed...who wouldn't be. This is probably sincere but it is no indication of growth or that this ingrained pattern will not be repeated.

 

Unfortunately, I would say this guy is not a keeper.

Also, safe sex!

 

 

Best Grapesofwrath

[Ruby Slippers]

Thanks, Ruby. I hear what you are saying. I have to be honest, though, and admit that when I was younger, I did cheat on some boyfriends, mainly as a cowardly and immature way of breaking up. (That was in my 20s and early 30s. I'm now 52) And I had an emotional affair at the end of my marriage. This was all many years ago, and I've had 3 relationships since getting divorced, none of which involved any cheating on my part. So I do believe that people can learn and grow up and realize how damaging cheating is. It's just the trolling for sex on Craig's List thing that has me freaked out.

Hmmm, well, like attracts like. If you can reform, a man can reform, too, right?

 

I would never trust a person with a history of cheating. But since you have that history, I guess you'll have to listen to your intuition and make the call.

 

I believe most people don't really change.

[clia]

He's telling you that if you stay with him he will cheat on you, likely more than once.

 

It's a dealbreaker if you don't want to be cheated on.

[salparadise]

So I do believe that people can learn and grow up and realize how damaging cheating is. It's just the trolling for sex on Craig's List thing that has me freaked out.

 

 

Well, you're going to have to assess for yourself whether his character is intact. All you know right now is that he had the propensity at that time and was able to justify doing what he felt like doing. His conscience or values didn't inhibit the behavior. People without conscience don't tend to magically acquire one in mid-life. Hopefully it's not dearth of conscience because that is a major component of sociopathy. You need to figure out if he does the right thing when no one is looking.

 

Perhaps it wasn't lack of conscience but his personal values that provided the loophole. If the marriage had broken down and she was committing relationship transgressions then he may not have felt bound under the circumstances. If there's no integrity in the relationship from the other direction, then does one remain honor bound just the same? This is much more understandable in my opinion. When marriages break down people often seek comfort outside without remorse, and a lot of people don't see that as egregious.

 

Of course, you won't hear that from many LS posters; posters here tend to not see shades of gray and put hard edges on things. I call it moral absolutism (and they absolutely hate it). You'll probably be interested to read about Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Developemnt

 

There's little doubt that people who have cheated before are more likely to cheat again, but that doesn't make it inevitable by any means. I believe people are redeemable and learn from their mistakes. There are not guarantees. You have to decide whether to take a chance or not. Trust is the foundation of a relationship, and this is an attribute of your personality as much as his history.

 

Personally, I would be able to trust someone who had cheated previously if everything else checks out, and if it was ancient history and not yesterday's news.

[JuneL]

Thanks, Ruby. I hear what you are saying. I have to be honest, though, and admit that when I was younger, I did cheat on some boyfriends, mainly as a cowardly and immature way of breaking up. (That was in my 20s and early 30s. I'm now 52) And I had an emotional affair at the end of my marriage. This was all many years ago, and I've had 3 relationships since getting divorced, none of which involved any cheating on my part. So I do believe that people can learn and grow up and realize how damaging cheating is. It's just the trolling for sex on Craig's List thing that has me freaked out.

 

Did you share with your guy this cheating history. From his perspective, he also wouldn’t believe that you haven’t cheated since your early 30s.

[Grapesofwrath]

Of course, you won't hear that from many LS posters; posters here tend to not see shades of gray and put hard edges on things. I call it moral absolutism (and they absolutely hate it). You'll probably be interested to read about Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Developemnt

 

There's little doubt that people who have cheated before are more likely to cheat again, but that doesn't make it inevitable by any means. I believe people are redeemable and learn from their mistakes. There are not guarantees. You have to decide whether to take a chance or not. Trust is the foundation of a relationship, and this is an attribute of your personality as much as his history.

 

Personally, I would be able to trust someone who had cheated previously if everything else checks out, and if it was ancient history and not yesterday's news.

 

Thank you for this voice of reason, Sal. I knew there would be a lot of absolutism when I wrote the post, but I was hoping I might also hear some thoughtful responses as well, which you have provided. I don't need to walk into a buzzsaw in this relationship, but I also know that people are complicated. I'm not aware of any middle-aged people who have never made a mistake or done a wrong thing. The question, to me, is did they learn from it? Is it a pattern of behavior over time that cannot be overcome?

 

In this case, I believe he views it as a major flaw in him that he felt compelled to confess to me. What I don't yet know--and will ask about--is whether this is more of a "I just want you to know about my past in order to understand my journey" or a "I've shared this characteristic, so when I cheat later you can't say I didn't warn you." Of course, there are no guarantees of anything, nor are there ever. But there is likelihood and probability.

[Grapesofwrath]

Did you share with your guy this cheating history. From his perspective, he also wouldn’t believe that you haven’t cheated since your early 30s.

 

He knows about the situation with my marriage. We've discussed it a few times, actually. He doesn't know all the other examples of "bridging" which is really what it was. It was an awful way to end relationships, and I felt terrible at the time but lacked the tools to handle things better. Through years of therapy, and just maturity, I acquired those tools and I no longer engage in the behavior. I have not engaged in it in decades.

[Sunlight72]

I strongly second salparadises post.

 

And, I wrote a bunch more here, but deleted it because I think the real answer is...

 

You, OP, have cheated on Multiple boyfriends. Multiple. You found this to be a way of living your life through Multiple different relationships - with Boyfriends! People you did not commit to honor and cherish for the rest of your life.

 

People you were not legally bound to. People who Did Not Cheat On You First (at least you didn't say). People you did not present to your family & friends in public and promise to love through thick and thin. You could have walked away from any of them without lawyers, without selling your house, without losing your in-laws or children. I find that much more worrisome.

 

And yet - you know your heart and head and life experience now, and you give the impression you would not cheat on him going forward.

 

Therefore - I would think you are more able to decide if you should listen to him and determine if you can trust this particular man with this particular history or not, much better than we who haven't ever cheated would be able to.

 

Good job on not physically cheating on your ex-husband (I am not being sarcastic).

 

In reference to the Craigslist method - I don't know, I haven't gone that route. I don't want to give the guy too much credit since I don't know him, but I can imagine it was a way for him to retain some sense he was still ready to rebuild his marriage as he wasn't seeking emotional & physical relationships. Also I could guess he did this with several different women because if he's stuck with one it would have become a relationship and (in a weird way) that then would have been dishonest to his marriage, even the shambles of a marriage as it was.

 

Truly, best wishes. This stuff isn't simple or clean, but from what you wrote he has treated you well up to now.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Sunlight72

[todreaminblue]

it wouldnt be a dealbreaker for me .....as long as the guy was divorced is he really divorced.....are you sure.....

 

it would however be a pretty big red flag ...i would be cautious....but i would give the guy a chance.....i feel that it was good he was honest with you ....he took a risk admitting to his failures....i think its worse for a guy to lie and say he has have never cheated which is what he could have done...

 

sounds like the relationship he was in there was cheating on both sides,.......and you said he seemed to have shame ...why do you feel this ....how did he show...shame...

 

as i said honesty to me is really important thats why i suggest you speak to him about cheating and your feelings on what you would do if he were to cheat on you just once and talk to him about that it makes you feel cautious about being with him and unsure.......be open with him......give him credit for being open and return the favor.....f you know in your heart that its a deal breaker ...then be true to you your values and beliefs with how you feel about it......and end the relationship....but for me personally...his forthrightness and openness shows a certain courage in being vulnerable.....it would however be a red flag and i would proceed with caution and total honesty.....deb

[Grapesofwrath]

I strongly second salparadises post.

 

And, I wrote a bunch more here, but deleted it because I think the real answer is...

 

You, OP, have cheated on Multiple boyfriends. Multiple. You found this to be a way of living your life through Multiple different relationships - with Boyfriends! People you did not commit to honor and cherish for the rest of your life..

 

People you were not legally bound to. People who Did Not Cheat On You First (at least you didn't say). People you did not present to your family & friends in public and promise to love through thick and thin. You could have walked away from any of them without lawyers, without selling your house, without losing your in-laws or children. I find that much more worrisome.

 

And yet - you know your heart and head and life experience now, and you give the impression you would not cheat on him going forward.

 

Therefore - I would think you are more able to decide if you should listen to him and determine if you can trust this particular man with this particular history or not, much better than we who haven't ever cheated would be able to.

 

Good job on not physically cheating on your ex-husband (I am not being sarcastic).

 

In reference to the Craigslist method - I don't know, I haven't gone that route. I don't want to give the guy too much credit since I don't know him, but I can imagine it was a way for him to retain some sense he was still ready to rebuild his marriage as he wasn't seeking emotional & physical relationships. Also I could guess he did this with several different women because if he's stuck with one it would have become a relationship and (in a weird way) that then would have been dishonest to his marriage, even the shambles of a marriage as it was.

 

Truly, best wishes. This stuff isn't simple or clean, but from what you wrote he has treated you well up to now.

 

Thank you, Sunlight. A couple things to add, based on your response:

 

Of the 3 boyfriends in question, where I cheated as an exit strategy to the relationship, 2 of them cheated on me first. Doesn't make me better or right. It remains a cowardly, immature, and cruel thing to do. I know that now, 20-30 years later.

 

As for my emotional affair...thank you for the credit. It was a long-distance emotional affair (mostly emails and texts) so it was not hard to keep it from getting physical. It was inappropriate, however, and I knew it. My marriage was irretrievably broken at that point, and this was maybe a version of "bridging" without the really severe betrayal. So it was a step in the right direction, but not all the way there yet. Again, this was about 10 years ago.

 

As for my current situation, he did say that he took these actions as a way to "even things out." Meaning his wife had been cheating on him, he knew it, he was angry, and he felt like he should get even with her. While this is still pretty awful, it's a bit of a different thing. I think you are right that some part of him wanted to see if he could make the marriage work. They went to therapy for several years to try.

 

Others may not agree, but I think it's significant that he volunteered this information. I was not probing. He just wanted to tell me because he felt I had a right to know. Because our relationship is developing and expanding, he wanted to come clean about it. It was gnawing at him to keep this secret from me. Somehow, I find that promising. He could easily have never revealed this and I would have had no way of finding out.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Grapesofwrath

[bathtub-row]

What I’d ask him is why does he feel shame about cheating, and why does he think it’s a bad idea. Ask him what he thinks would’ve been another way of handling things, and how would he handle them now, knowing what he knows in hindsight. Most importantly, while it may seem an obvious thing to say, ask him if he would ever cheat again while in a relationship with anyone, no matter how bad things get. Don’t feed him answers or comment on anything he says, just see what he says. Stay quiet when he seems to be done talking and see if he picks it back up again. The more he talks, the more he will reveal to you what he’s really thinking. And, btw, just because he didn’t love his ex is no excuse for cheating.

 

The problem you’re dealing with is that his default is to cheat when he no longer feels it with his SO. The fact that his wife cheated first was most likely the catalyst to him feeling entitled to follow suit but, as you can see, it reflects on him now.

 

If you have money and he’s aware of that, then tread carefully. He may be just playing you. Even if he appears to have money on his own, that could be a smoke screen. What I’m getting at is that you should let at least 2 years go by before you commit to this man. Get a real handle on his character and always, always protect your assets.

 

My instincts would be to drop someone like this but I’d also find it difficult if things were clicking in the way you describe. I hope it all works out for you but, above all else, listen to your instincts over the coming months. Don’t ignore them if they tell you something doesn’t seem quite right. Best wishes!

[todreaminblue]

Others may not agree, but I think it's significant that he volunteered this information. I was not probing. He just wanted to tell me because he felt I had a right to know. Because our relationship is developing and expanding, he wanted to come clean about it. It was gnawing at him to keep this secret from me. Somehow, I find that promising. He could easily have never revealed this and I would have had no way of finding out.

 

i agree with you ...truth is always significant...and should be given credit.....deb

[smackie9]

ya and if he ever did cheat on you, he can turn around and say "well can't say I didn't warn you....."

[chillii]

So it sounds like you've cheated 4 times too counting the emotional thing.

yeah you were younger but on 3 different boyfriends, l mean, yaknow.

For a start l think you should be telling him all this, he's been upfront and probably thinks he's princess would never do such a thing, well the thing is he doesn't know her at all then and that's not fair.

We know about it and we don't even know ya, you know about his stuff.

 

He was younger too at the time, just not as young and stuck in a cold fish marriage for a long time, and she cheated. So if you add all those things up with you 3 plus one, it's not really much different.

So l'm thinking first of all , you need to tell him your story too , l'm surprised he hasn't asked more and dug it out of you which only proves he's assuming you would never, so he needs to know because he couldn't be more worng.

Once you both been 100% honest then he can decide if that's a deal breaker for him too , and you can both decide if you've both changed or not and whether he wants to trust you and you him.

Edited May 16, 2019 by chillii

[Gretchen12]

Looking for hookups on craiglist is a bit of a risky behavior for a family man. You have only known him for 4-5 month. If you end up not working out it will probably be because a underlying incompatibility, not the cheating itself.

 

Did you meet him online? You should tactfully ask him what he looked for when he searched on craiglist. Don't be obvious, you want him to tell you the truth. For example if the women were all asian and you are not, well then you know. I met a guy online who had a good job, taught high school, and that fact checked out. But when I googled the email address he used for online dating, I found out he was also on a transgender site looking for a man. So I discretely made my exit.

 

I'm not saying your guy has other secrets. I only gave the example to say how little we know someone in 4-5 months from an online dating site. You will find out either way as things unfold.

 

Another question you might ask him is whether or not he told his then-wife about his craiglist activities, if he values honesty so much, she needed to know. Even if not a dealbreaker, it is a red flag and you know it, or you wouldn't be askng.

[Grapesofwrath]

Looking for hookups on craiglist is a bit of a risky behavior for a family man. You have only known him for 4-5 month. If you end up not working out it will probably be because a underlying incompatibility, not the cheating itself.

 

Did you meet him online? You should tactfully ask him what he looked for when he searched on craiglist. Don't be obvious, you want him to tell you the truth. For example if the women were all asian and you are not, well then you know. I met a guy online who had a good job, taught high school, and that fact checked out. But when I googled the email address he used for online dating, I found out he was also on a transgender site looking for a man. So I discretely made my exit.

 

I'm not saying your guy has other secrets. I only gave the example to say how little we know someone in 4-5 months from an online dating site. You will find out either way as things unfold.

 

Another question you might ask him is whether or not he told his then-wife about his craiglist activities, if he values honesty so much, she needed to know. Even if not a dealbreaker, it is a red flag and you know it, or you wouldn't be askng.

 

Gretchen: Oh, yes. It's definitely a red flag, hence my post.

 

We did not meet online. He was introduced to me by my best friend. They worked together for several years, a few years ago. She ran into him at a school tour and he told her he was single now, which he is. I have met several of his friends and his sister and step-sister, so I am confident he is actually single.

 

Your other questions are interesting, however, and I will inquire in those areas. I agree that looking for sex on CL is risky in a lot of ways. He had a D-day, and his ex-wife knows about the activity. They stayed together for a few years afterward, trying to work on their issues, namely infidelity on both sides and her alcoholism. They share a son, so I think they both really wanted to make it work for his sake.

[h0000]

Then why tell me about it now? I didn't ask. .

 

Just so later when he cheats on you he can tell you "warned you so".

 

This guy is telling you when things go south, his way of coping is cheating. Doesnt matter if hes ashamed, he will just do it. Just like how we feel guilty about binge eating when we are sad but we still do it. He can feel so wrong about cheating yet he.will.still.do.it. period.

 

Whether it is a deal breaker for YOU, only you can decide. For us, it is.